310 replies to this topic

[Cy Mitchell]

It is only play to win if you need it to win. If you think that you have a better chance of winning with any Kit Fox than you do with a free Arctic Cheetah then I guess you can call it P2W if you want to.

[FupDup]

Rampage, on 27 January 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

It is only play to win if you need it to win.

No. The definition of P2W is anything that makes the player more powerful but can only be acquired through real money or excessively long grinding. Even something like Gold AC/20 ammo for MC only that has a 10% higher crit chance would be P2W.

P2W gets its meaning from the fact that a player with stronger gear has a higher chance of winning than a player with weaker gear. It's not about a literal guaranteed win. The player with the stronger gear will on average win more frequently than the player with weaker gear, assuming relatively similar skill levels.

Rampage, on 27 January 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

If you think that you have a better chance of winning with any Kit Fox than you do with a free Arctic Cheetah then I guess you can call it P2W if you want to.

The Purifier Fox has a far better chance against a Cheetah than any C-Bill Kit Fox. That's the problem. The strongest variants should not be premium-only.

Frankly the entire Kit Fox lineup is crappy (even the Purifier), but that is a completely separate point. All Kit Foxes need some Quirk lovin', with the C-Bill variants getting a lot more of that lovin' than the Purifier.

Edited by FupDup, 27 January 2017 - 03:14 PM.

[Ghogiel]

Rampage, on 27 January 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

It is only play to win if you need it to win. If you think that you have a better chance of winning with any Kit Fox than you do with a free Arctic Cheetah then I guess you can call it P2W if you want to.

The purifier is the best KFX hands down. Granted it's not a good robot.

but sticking the best hard points and quirks on a mech that's behind a paywall is the worst balancing error going imo. That's a serious problem.

[Y E O N N E]

BSW P1 and P2 being behind the second-tier paywall is another example of P2W.

[WarHippy]

Ken Harkin, on 27 January 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

Warhammer and Marauder heroes? Seriously, I run both and consider the standard non-hero versions superior by a considerable margin.

That aside, so what? Everybody does realize that PGI is a business and all needs to make a profit?

You do realize that is an absurdly stupid statement right? It is fine for them to sell things and try to make a profit by selling things people want to buy rather than feel forced to buy in order to compete. It is entirely underhanded to put superior items behind a pay wall in a competitive game. Using your logic(and I am being very generous using that term) what stops them from removing the ability to put anything but machine guns on c-bill mechs and full customization on paid for mechs, or triple armor bonuses and gold ammo on hero mechs but not on standard mechs? Nothing. After all they are a business and need to make a profit right?

Edited by WarHippy, 27 January 2017 - 03:42 PM.

[Dee Eight]

Seriously? This much salt over a 10% ROF quirk on ONE pod ? Perhaps you haven't noticed but there's been a great de-quirking going on the past few months, especially to clan omnipods with many hard points. The Left arm KFX-C pod has 2 energy and 2 ballistic points on it. This has little at all to do with P2W and everything to do with the impending arrival of the skill tree change and they want new DATA about what quirks to fold into the base mech stats and what to make part of the skill tree. Currently 4 KFX pods still have ROF quirks for MGs. The single-hardpoint left and right arms of the purifier, and the single hardpoint left and right torso of the S variant. I imagine one reason they took the 10% off the C-pod only was because you can mix pods to over-do what the quirks were intended for. They're cutting back on players ability to MinMax their omni mechs.

If MGs were your goal on a kit fox, prior to this patch... between a purifier right arm pod, two S side torsos and a C left arm you could have 5 MGs with +30% ROF and two energy mounts for a couple pulse lasers. With the increased damage and accuracy of MGs, that's rather more obscene than PGI wants players to have. People always talk about some fabled 6 MG spider (which never existed) and how it touched Paul wrong... while ignoring the 5 MG Kit Foxes that DID exist to everyone already using the Prime right arm (which also conveys a +10% ballistic range and velocity). And they still exist. 1 Missile hardpoint, 2 energy, 5 ballistic and 15 tons to work with. So you have five MGs, an SRM6, and a pair of MPLs with four DHS extra and this is what results...


The Fabled Fox

Edited by Dee Eight, 27 January 2017 - 04:32 PM.

[SuomiWarder]

None of the nerfs or quirks matter in a few months anyway when the new XP system rolls in.

[Mcgral18]

Dee Eight, on 27 January 2017 - 04:08 PM, said:

Seriously? This much salt over a 10% ROF quirk on ONE pod ? Perhaps you haven't noticed but there's been a great de-quirking going on the past few months, especially to clan omnipods with many hard points. The Left arm KFX-C pod has 2 energy and 2 ballistic points on it. This has little at all to do with P2W and everything to do with the impending arrival of the skill tree change and they want new DATA about what quirks to fold into the base mech stats and what to make part of the skill tree. Currently 4 KFX pods still have ROF quirks for MGs. The single-hardpoint left and right arms of the purifier, and the single hardpoint left and right torso of the S variant. I imagine one reason they took the 10% off the C-pod only was because you can mix pods to over-do what the quirks were intended for. They're cutting back on players ability to MinMax their omni mechs.

If MGs were your goal on a kit fox, prior to this patch... between a purifier right arm pod, two S side torsos and a C left arm you could have 5 MGs with +30% ROF and two energy mounts for a couple pulse lasers. With the increased damage and accuracy of MGs, that's rather more obscene than PGI wants players to have. People always talk about some fabled 6 MG spider (which never existed) and how it touched Paul wrong... while ignoring the 5 MG Kit Foxes that DID exist to everyone already using the Prime right arm (which also conveys a +10% ballistic range and velocity). And they still exist. 1 Missile hardpoint, 2 energy, 5 ballistic and 15 tons to work with. So you have five MGs, an SRM6, and a pair of MPLs with six DHS extra and this is what results...

The Fabled Fox

The Fox
The Summoner
The Whale
The Marauder 2C (though, the D isn't bad either, both good)
The Jenner
The Victor (lol as you will)



All have payment only superior options
Whale you can argue, dat DPS, and I haven't looked into many of the new robots, not wanting to buy anything from PGI

[Mcgral18]

It sets bad precedent, and it seems PGI has no issue with it

[Jettrik Ryflix]

I agree that Hero mechs should not outperform c-bill available mechs. In the for the longest time, this was the case (besides exceptions like the Victor DS). It has gotten worse recently, no question. Not all heroes are better than c-bill variants (ex. Spirit Bear), but they are trending this way (see upcoming SuperNova hero).

However, I am okay with the Reinforcements mechs having a competitive edge over the standard mechs. Firstly, these variants will eventually become available for c-bills, unlike heroes; and secondly, there needs to be a reason to buy the additional package. Honestly, how many people do you think would purchase the reinforcements if the standard pack had the "best" variants?

[Cy Mitchell]

FupDup, on 27 January 2017 - 03:12 PM, said:

No. The definition of P2W is anything that makes the player more powerful but can only be acquired through real money or excessively long grinding. Even something like Gold AC/20 ammo for MC only that has a 10% higher crit chance would be P2W.

P2W gets its meaning from the fact that a player with stronger gear has a higher chance of winning than a player with weaker gear. It's not about a literal guaranteed win. The player with the stronger gear will on average win more frequently than the player with weaker gear, assuming relatively similar skill levels.



The Purifier Fox has a far better chance against a Cheetah than any C-Bill Kit Fox. That's the problem. The strongest variants should not be premium-only.

Frankly the entire Kit Fox lineup is crappy (even the Purifier), but that is a completely separate point. All Kit Foxes need some Quirk lovin', with the C-Bill variants getting a lot more of that lovin' than the Purifier.

Your (and other's) definition of Pay to Win is way different than mine then. If the Kodiak KDK-3 was the Hero Mech in that line-up then I would say yes it is P2W because the Kodiak KDK-3 is better than and other Assault that you can get free in the game. To me if you can get something that is significantly more efficient and more powerful for free then anything else is just cosmetics and you are buying it to look different.

So what you guys are say is that if they release a Mist Lynx or Vindicator hero that is has slightly better hardpoints than any other variant of those chassis then it is pay to win? I do not buy it.. What are you going to win? The best version of the terrible Mech award?

Edited by Rampage, 27 January 2017 - 06:05 PM.

[BurningDesire]

someone mentioned medusa as pay to win wtf??? the c variant of the viper is better then just mix and match omnipods.

[Y E O N N E]

Rampage, on 27 January 2017 - 06:04 PM, said:

So what you guys are say is that if they release a Mist Lynx or Vindicator hero that is has slightly better hardpoints than any other variant of those chassis then it is pay to win? I do not buy it.. What are you going to win? The best version of the terrible Mech award?

It is still Pay-2-Win.

If I am driving my MLX and run across another equally capable pilot driving this hypothetical superior MLX hero, I am probably going to lose through no fault of my own other than not spending money for the hero.

"Slightly better" snowballs in MWO.

[Mcgral18]

BurningDesire, on 27 January 2017 - 06:20 PM, said:

someone mentioned medusa as pay to win wtf??? the c variant of the viper is better then just mix and match omnipods.

Largest number of arm mounted lasers
You can add those arms to the C, and get a superior robot
Its my headhunter because it's the only mech with 9 hardpoints which can run over 130 Kph

[BurningDesire]

Mcgral18, on 27 January 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

Largest number of arm mounted lasers
You can add those arms to the C, and get a superior robot
Its my headhunter because it's the only mech with 9 hardpoints which can run over 130 Kph

have you used it with 9 small lasers??? the damn thing is a bunsen burner with legs. the arm mounts for a viper are the crappiest part of it, that and the blutac they use to attach them must be from the 10c shop cause they fall off first time you get shot

Edited by BurningDesire, 27 January 2017 - 07:25 PM.

[Mcgral18]

BurningDesire, on 27 January 2017 - 07:22 PM, said:

have you used it with 9 small lasers??? the damn thing is a bunsen burner with legs. the arm mounts for a viper are the crappiest part of it, that and the blutac they use to attach them must be from the 10c shop cause they fall off first time you get shot

6 SPLs and 3 Flamers

It works fine, if toasty
It's something no other mech in the game can do

[El Bandito]

Snazzy Dragon, on 27 January 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

The jam time was reduced to 3 seconds from 5 seconds which is significant when boating that many UAC2s.

Ghogiel, on 27 January 2017 - 02:20 PM, said:

The jam mechanics changed on UACs a couple patches ago. UAC2s got a dps buff because the jam length is much lower than it was before, and also why when a 20 jams you are waiting half an hour for it to unjam..

Yet the CUAC2 still has the least amount of DPS increase compared to single-tap, even after the change.

Mcgral18, on 27 January 2017 - 04:27 PM, said:

The Fox
The Summoner
The Whale
The Marauder 2C (though, the D isn't bad either, both good)
The Jenner
The Victor (lol as you will)

All have payment only superior options
Whale you can argue, dat DPS, and I haven't looked into many of the new robots, not wanting to buy anything from PGI

Ilya Murometz was probably the first P2W hero, back then.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 January 2017 - 07:34 PM.

[RestosIII]

Mcgral18, on 27 January 2017 - 07:28 PM, said:

It works fine

I'm pretty sure the people you headshot with that thing would say it does more than "fine"

[Deathlike]

El Bandito, on 27 January 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

Ilya Murometz was probably the first P2W hero, back then.

The thing about planned obsolescence is that other things eventually step up to replace it. In this case it happened to be the Jagermech.

[BurningDesire]

Mcgral18, on 27 January 2017 - 07:28 PM, said:

6 SPLs and 3 Flamers

It works fine, if toasty
It's something no other mech in the game can do

except the c variant which can do it with 1 less laser, i fail to see how 1 extra small laser or flamer is p2w