182 replies to this topic

[Sjorpha]

naterist, on 04 February 2017 - 03:57 AM, said:

units and groups already have comp, go back to that if you want to fight each other.

That is completely untrue. Playing in a unit and playing competitively are completely different things. As far as I know ISEN is the only comp unit that puts any effort into FP, and they only do it sporadically.

All the other units in Faction Play are Casual and many of them are lore/roleplay oriented. EVIL is a casual unit, MJ12 is a casual unit with FRR roleplay focus and so on. All those 12 mans you refer to as comp players are in fact casual players who have decided to get organized because that is more fun. We don't belong in comp play because most of us are neither good enough or interested in comp.

Please tell me more about how battletech lore is about individuals owning a bunch of mechs and randomly teaming up, where the hell does that idea come from?

The truth is that Battletech lore is all about units, solo play is a lot less lore friendly than unit play. If you want lore in your MWO, you should join a unit and get organized because that is what your heroes from all BT stories did.

Also the most hardcore lore fans are to be found in units, maybe you're getting confused about them because they are also decent players? Perhaps in you mind a player cannot be both a lore fan and a top player at the same time?

Organization, unit identity, tactics, developing effective mech builds, teamwork, fighting as a unit in lances or a full company. Those things are not just lore friendly, they are the essence of battletech.

Edited by Sjorpha, 04 February 2017 - 05:21 AM.

[TWIAFU]

naterist, on 04 February 2017 - 04:31 AM, said:

point my *** at the que that incorporates lore fans. you units have 3 ques to a casuals 1. seems kinda ****** to be complaining im in "your" que and i should go back to quickplay. if your gonna make a lore mode, make it for lore fans. dont make a lore mode and expect lore fans to jump through hoops to play it.

also, the whole game has a population problem, not just fw. notice when comps going fw ques are slower? thats because people in comp use fw as theyre inbetween comp games location, and HALF OF THOSE GUYS wont even touch it. the world champs dont even play regularly.

clearly this FW is for units thing isnt working. there arent enough units playing continuously, so you need to either refocus it or nix it, because its intended playerbase is spread between this, comp, and group que, while lore fans with jobs or college are just aching for a fair shot at this mode, so why not give it to them when no one its intended for seems to really care anyways?

your way has been tried since fw came out, didnt work. now try and open it up and see what happens.

tl:dr- give fw to the lore fans instead of the units, because the units clearly dont want to play it at a rate that would allow pgi to justify having the que open 24 hours.

Point my *** to where I mentioned ANYTHING about Lore fans?

Three Queues for Units? Let me count the Queues and what they are for;

QP - This is a NON GROUP Queue. Unit members and Solos drop here, but cannot be in a group, hence this is referred to as the Solo Queue.

Group - This Queues is for Groups. These Groups can be made up of friends, Units, or randoms. All must be grouped and do not have to be all of the same Unit.

CW - Primaritly designed FOR Group Unit play.

So, without going to math school, I count ONE made for Unit play and ONE for Groups where all of the same Unit CAN play together.

So, one plus one equals TWO, not Three.

WTF you talking about casuals for? Is there some EULA rule missing where it says casuals cannot play in any one of the three queues as they see fit within the queue setting? No, it does not. There is nothing preventing casuals from playing anywhere they want to except for whatever sense of entitlement they have.

Lore fans are to blame, units to blame for playing in the unit queue, groups to blame for playing in the group queue. Maybe you are to blame for not participating in the design of the seperate queues and want them to suit you.

Yea, good luck with that.

[Jon Gotham]

We might as well remove the friends list as well and disable chat. Let's just hide the fact other people are in the same match. It's always the same story.
"I want to play solo and not be social."
" I want to gimp myself"
" I want people punished who are not blinkered like me and put more effort in"

Reward the idle, closeted and self deceitful. Punish those who aren't.

[naterist]

Sjorpha, on 04 February 2017 - 05:11 AM, said:

That is completely untrue. Playing in a unit and playing competitively are completely different things. As far as I know ISEN is the only comp unit that puts any effort into FP, and they only do it sporadically.

All the other units in Faction Play are Casual and many of them are lore/roleplay oriented. EVIL is a casual unit, MJ12 is a casual unit with FRR roleplay focus and so on. All those 12 mans you refer to as comp players are in fact casual players who have decided to get organized because that is more fun. We don't belong in comp play because most of us are neither good enough or interested in comp.

Please tell me more about how battletech lore is about individuals owning a bunch of mechs and randomly teaming up, where the hell does that idea come from?

The truth is that Battletech lore is all about units, solo play is a lot less lore friendly than unit play. If you want lore in your MWO, you should join a unit and get organized because that is what your heroes from all BT stories did.

casual? i remember the first time i met bravoxious he was screening everyone he let into the mj12 group. dont tell me mj12 is for casuals. thats just untrue. same with evil they bill themselves as only the best are allowed in. how is that in any way "casual?"

the fact is that battletech isnt about a bunch of randos grouping up and taking a planet. but i bet it doesnt have units filled with people whove never piloted a real life mech before either. you can have lore without the groups. the groups are a minority however so why do we even focus on them so much? if im limited to 12 people in my unit dropping with me to make every game good, and we limited it to just that ind of thing, thered never be any matches because everyone is reliant on the stars aligning and their whole unit being able to form a 12 man. ok, thats fine, but is that whole group going to be on at once? and is an opposing group going to be on too? also, are they going to majically press the button at around the same time? if all that went into place and we had a population to support it, i may be tempted to listen to you. but we there arent enough of the people you are saying the mode is for in order for it to be populated. therefore, since pugs are the ones who populate the game mode, lets build it around them, instead of building it for an audience that is only somewhat there, and needs filler just to get their numbers to a place were it kinda works. just face it, its been tried and tried. units arent carrying this mode to success. get over it and move on. this isnt about people asking for hand outs or people mad that theyre getting beaten as you all so condesendingly put it. it is just a pure fact that faction play as originally envisioned is a bad design, whether your upset PGI's original promise to you wasnt fulfilled or not. your way straight up does not work. sounds cool, but doesnt work. now we gotta rtethink this so that it does work and why not start by catering to the ones playing the mode consistently.

[naterist]

Jon Gotham, on 04 February 2017 - 05:20 AM, said:

We might as well remove the friends list as well and disable chat. Let's just hide the fact other people are in the same match. It's always the same story.
"I want to play solo and not be social."
" I want to gimp myself"
" I want people punished who are not blinkered like me and put more effort in"

Reward the idle, closeted and self deceitful. Punish those who aren't.

there arent enough of your ideal players to fill a lobby at any given point except on rare occassions when the sun and stars align and 2 12 mans face off against each other.

this isnt about not putting in the numbers, its about your prefered method being a failure since fw began. now we need something new before 4.1 finishes its downward spiral. we need to stop working with what we SHOULD have, and start working with what we DO have.

and ya, genius, you didnt count comp. that unit exclusivity right there. unit, group, cw. 3. there you go. now you can count that high. congrats.

Edited by naterist, 04 February 2017 - 05:29 AM.

[Carl Vickers]

I think you need to get over it and move on, it isnt going to change, if you dont like it, as has been said before, QP and private lobbies are for you. Good luck with that.

P.s. He may only be able to count to 3 as you have stated but thats still 2 higher than you can count.

Edited by Carl Vickers, 04 February 2017 - 05:26 AM.

[Sjorpha]

naterist, on 04 February 2017 - 05:21 AM, said:

casual? i remember the first time i met bravoxious he was screening everyone he let into the mj12 group. dont tell me mj12 is for casuals. thats just untrue. same with evil they bill themselves as only the best are allowed in. how is that in any way "casual?"

Yes, casual.

The fact that MJ12 has a skill requirement doesn't mean it's not casual. It also doesn't mean it's not lore focused. We are a merc unit with FRR lore identity. We also want to be a strong unit with good players, which is also part of our lore based identity. We are also specifically focused on Faction Play.

Did all units in lore allow everyone and their dog in? Are there no elite units in Battletech lore?

We have a subset of players with competitive aspirations, and we submit a team for MRBC (our results were nothing to write home about last season ). But that only involves maybe 5-10% of our active members, the rest are just decently skilled casuals who like playing Faction Play.

There is nothing non-casual about organization and being good, we do those things because we think they are the most fun way to be casual players. The game becomes both more fun and closer to lore if you organize, it is the way to get the most out of it.

Also, Bravoxious was removed/left from MJ12 over disagreements with his attitude, including his attitude against pugs and bad players. Now I personally have no problem with Bravoxious, in fact I'm a bit sad to lose him, and I hope he has no problem with me. He's a great drop caller and a nice guy to play with, he just clashed a bit with how we've decided to represent MJ12. I also don't think Bravoxious has any competitive ambitions, as far as I know he's a casual FP focused player like me who just likes to be organized and group with competent teammates, but I may be wrong.

In any case Bravoxious isn't representantive for MJ12 and I suspect he wouldn't want you to think so either. He probably regards us as a bunch of passive aggressive pantytwisted politically correct europussies, and he wouldn't be completely wrong .

EVIL is elitist, more elitist than we are, but they are also casual in the sense that they don't play the game competitively. So they should be described as an elitist casual unit.

Edited by Sjorpha, 04 February 2017 - 06:00 AM.

[Sjorpha]

naterist, on 04 February 2017 - 05:24 AM, said:

and ya, genius, you didnt count comp. that unit exclusivity right there. unit, group, cw. 3. there you go. now you can count that high. congrats.

Comp is COMP EXCLUSIVE, not unit exclusive. Any bunch of competitve players can submit teams for MRBC etc, no need to be affiliated with a unit.

Most units have no place in comp play, either because of not being good enough or because they aren't interested.

You need to sort your definitions out and understand that they don't contradict each other, you need to stop making up these false dichotomies.

There are Casual solo players, Competitive solo players, Unit lore fans, Competitive unit lore fans, Casual high skill non-lore unit players. You can combine these terms any way you want, there are no contradictions. It's even possible to be competitive sometimes and casual at other times.

You can also care to different degrees about different parts of lore, for example a hardcore BT lore fan could very well argue that solo play is completely contradictory to lore and should not be allowed in MWO at all! (I'm not saying that, but it's a plausible and rational position for a lore fan)

Stop inventing false generalizations and pretend they stand against each other.

Edited by Sjorpha, 04 February 2017 - 05:52 AM.

[naterist]

Sjorpha, on 04 February 2017 - 05:40 AM, said:

Yes, casual.

The fact that MJ12 has a skill requirement doesn't mean it's not casual. It also doesn't mean it's not lore focused. We are a merc unit with FRR lore identity. We also want to be a strong unit with good players, which is also part of our lore based identity. We are also specifically focused on Faction Play.

Did all units in lore allow everyone and their dog in? Are there no elite units in Battletech lore?

We have a subset of players with competitive aspirations, and we submit a team for MRBC (our results were nothing to write home about last season ). But that only involves maybe 10% of our active members, the rest are just decently skilled casuals who like playing Faction Play.

There is nothing non-casual about organization and being good, we do those things because we think they are the most fun way to be casual players. The game becomes both more fun and closer to lore if you organize, it is the way to get the most out of it.

Also, Bravoxious was removed/left from MJ12 over disagreements with his attitude, including his attitude against bad players. Now I personally have no problem with Bravoxious, in fact I'm a bit sad to lose him, and I hope he has no problem with me. He's a great drop caller and a nice guy to play with, he just clashed a bit with how we've decided to represent MJ12. I also don't think Bravoxious has any competitive ambitions, as far as I know he's a casual FP focused player like me who just likes to be organized and group with competent teammates, but I may be wrong.

Didnt know about that bravoxious left you guys. Prior to this 12 mans led by him are the only exposure ive had with mj12, and i stopped playing with you guys because i figured he was representative of your units thinking. My bad.

However we have extremely different views of what competetive and casual is. To me, a casual is someone who plays, but isnt willing to do all the background spreadsheet and strategy tactics that comp teams do. A casual just plays and learns from either experience, others, or basic level guides like those found for new players on youtube.

I will admit that you are quite correct, some units are good, others arent. Thats true everywere, yes.

Teams that put comp level work into the game should win, yes.

But do they need to go up against pugs 3/4ths of the time? No.

Do we need to remove pugs from a mode because theyre pugs, no.

Should we treat people who dont have time to play fw continuously and who arent top level players like a second class, only there to act as easy npc's for stuffing the unit players cbill earnings and inflating there leaderboard stats? Heck no!

Thats what i stand for here. We have people who are saying im crazy for thinking this way. Well, the fact is that we need pgi to ditch their current view, which is let the units roflstomp the, what i define as, casuals with impunity, and try and make it more inclusive with matchmaker of some sort or another method. Is limiting group size a good idea? No. Do we need to rethink our aproach to FW? Yes, because these pugs are here, and their here because this is were the lore is, and unless we lock out the bottom 75% of the population, youll never get your ideal unit centric fw, and if you did the ques would be horrendous.

Instead, im asking us to take a second look at how we aproach it. An area dedicated to lore, leaving group que for unit tactics (or a unit part of fw could be made, but weve already seen people mass reject that idea) and comp scene for more agressive unit work. Right now, this has the same feel as comp but with more roles, less teams, and a faction flag added to your name.

None of that makes sense. Now what do we have? We have a marketable lore section of the game, something that can be filled with whoever, and units dont get pugs each match and a roflstomp 3 times in 2 hours. Weve seen that the lore is whats drawing people, not the 'units playground' aspect. In fact, now we call it "running into a unit", because its a rare thing that happens by chance or accident, depending on how you look at it.

Clearly, this is not a units paradise, so why do we insist on thinking of it that way? Its asanine. It hasnt worked in fw 1, 2, or 3, so why do we keep it around for 4.1+

[Daidachi]

The simple problem here is that any time people organise in this game, they will do better. That is not only the nature of the game, it is encouraged. It's why one of the hot tips is that a well coordinated unit will be in high demand throughout the inner sphere.

That extends through every level of the game. The team that uses comms, employs a strategy and executes it as a group, and has a modicum of preparation by organising dropdecks so that there is synergy between the team beforehand will generally win most times.

I get the desire to just log on and want to do your own thing - but that's what single player games are about, at the end of the day, or Solaris arena matches, which I hope they offer as a new game mode in the months to come, based on the work put into the new 1v1 lobby map.

There's a parable used in world of warcraft back when raids were 40 man affairs - it's your $14.99/month, but it's also our $584.61/month. While there's no direct monetary correlation, the sentiment remains valid - if you're choosing to log onto a group PvP game, the onus should be on you as a player to group with others and prepare before you enter battle, outside of quickplay solo queue.

Not wanting to do so is comparable to telling a raid leader in vanilla WoW you want to take your protection specced paladin into a dungeon wearing green priest robes loaded with + spirit.

Edit: Your issues where you request a matchmaker would stand a better chance if there were more new players joining this game. As a niche title without an advertising spend to speak of, all you can do is ask PGI to make the tools for people to learn the game mode, and the game in general easier to access. The academy is a start, but only a start.

Edited by Daidachi, 04 February 2017 - 06:24 AM.

[naterist]

Daidachi, on 04 February 2017 - 06:22 AM, said:

The simple problem here is that any time people organise in this game, they will do better. That is not only the nature of the game, it is encouraged. It's why one of the hot tips is that a well coordinated unit will be in high demand throughout the inner sphere.

That extends through every level of the game. The team that uses comms, employs a strategy and executes it as a group, and has a modicum of preparation by organising dropdecks so that there is synergy between the team beforehand will generally win most times.

I get the desire to just log on and want to do your own thing - but that's what single player games are about, at the end of the day, or Solaris arena matches, which I hope they offer as a new game mode in the months to come, based on the work put into the new 1v1 lobby map.

There's a parable used in world of warcraft back when raids were 40 man affairs - it's your $14.99/month, but it's also our $584.61/month. While there's no direct monetary correlation, the sentiment remains valid - if you're choosing to log onto a group PvP game, the onus should be on you as a player to group with others and prepare before you enter battle, outside of quickplay solo queue.

Not wanting to do so is comparable to telling a raid leader in vanilla WoW you want to take your protection specced paladin into a dungeon wearing green priest robes loaded with + spirit.

Edit: Your issues where you request a matchmaker would stand a better chance if there were more new players joining this game. As a niche title without an advertising spend to speak of, all you can do is ask PGI to make the tools for people to learn the game mode, and the game in general easier to access. The academy is a start, but only a start.

The difference is that wow players have another method for getting lore based gameplay. We dont. If we have lore than we need to let fans of the lore be able to play the bit with the lore. Otherwise, why not rename it 'robot stompy game' and make every mech and weaponsystem a pgi original? If a game is based on an IP, then you need to give IP fans a chance to play and experience the IPs lore in game. Otherwise, whats the point of it being a battletech related product? It would make sense if qp was the units playfield, as that doesnt require lore, and the low player recycle times would make it easier to match big groups to big groups, leaving lore accessable to passing fanboys with a moment to spare, and everyone else not interested in the unit paradise, but right now thats not hapoening. However lore access shouldnt be linked to skill and unit, it should be open to all, and those intruiged and wanting to get really into the game can do their unit type stuff in qp, which is loreless. Thats perfect for a victory first mentality. Or comp as well, winning should be everything in those 2 places, but fw should be about a love and appreciation for BT, and for getting people into the game. Lets face it, we need new player retention, and opening fw would help with that, as it just barely has that extra oomph to keep people interested.

[Sjorpha]

naterist, on 04 February 2017 - 06:17 AM, said:

But do they need to go up against pugs 3/4ths of the time? No.

Do we need to remove pugs from a mode because theyre pugs, no.

Should we treat people who dont have time to play fw continuously and who arent top level players like a second class, only there to act as easy npc's for stuffing the unit players cbill earnings and inflating there leaderboard stats? Heck no!

Thats what i stand for here. We have people who are saying im crazy for thinking this way. Well, the fact is that we need pgi to ditch their current view, which is let the units roflstomp the, what i define as, casuals with impunity, and try and make it more inclusive with matchmaker of some sort or another method. Is limiting group size a good idea? No. Do we need to rethink our aproach to FW? Yes, because these pugs are here, and their here because this is were the lore is, and unless we lock out the bottom 75% of the population, youll never get your ideal unit centric fw, and if you did the ques would be horrendous.

On these points I agree with you.

Pugstomps are super boring for us too, it's not like winning big is that much more fun or more intersting than losing big. So there is no conflict of interest in trying to facilitate better balanced matches in Faction Play, this is something the units would benefit from as much as solos.

But you have to recognize that the kind of unit that focuses on faction play is a different kind that those who focus on comp play or group queue. We can't get the thing our unit is about in either of those arenas, because we are about fighting with our faction and unit is the big war between Clan and IS. Faction Play, flawed as it may be, is still the heart and soul of a unit like ours. And the same is true for many other units. We are the ones who have put time and effort into making faction hubs work, we are the ones who facilitate introductory evening drops for new FP players, we are the ones who have tried to give constructive and organized feedback for years, we are the ones pushing for roundtables and try to make this whole thing real. We put in a lot of work, and there is nothing else for us. Can you see how someone showing up and saying we are the problem and should be barred from the game feels unfair?

You're probably right that FP can't make do without solos, I agree with that. Solos are, or should be, the oil in the matchmaking machinery that makes matches in a limited population possible by filling out the teams.

FP also can't make do without units though. Units and faction organization is the heart and soul of Faction Play, community work is very important for a project like this. Maybe unit players are a minority, but they facilitate a majority of the supporting community functions that is needed to make a community oriented game mode work.

How to reduce pugstomps?

First of all I beleive that we have to be prepared to accept a reduction, getting rid of unbalanced matches isn't realistic in a mode like this, but there could be less of them.

The first thing I would to is build teams around groups. As far as possible the game should start by finding a group for each side of the match and them fill out the remaining slots with solos. This way there should be one group in each team most of the time that could take command and call the match with a proper plan, which is the main key to make the most of solo players.

I also thing Faction play should have a small barrier for entry. Not a skill barrier, because some people have legitimate reasons being unable to improve and they shouldn't be punished for it, but you don't need to have access to FP as a complete newbie. So just getting some mechs of your own, playing through the tutorial and all you cadet matches. Then FP unlocks. I thing that would improve Faction play a little and be better fot the newbies too.

[naterist]

Sjorpha, on 04 February 2017 - 06:54 AM, said:

On these points I agree with you.

Pugstomps are super boring for us too, it's not like winning big is that much more fun or more intersting than losing big. So there is no conflict of interest in trying to facilitate better balanced matches in Faction Play, this is something the units would benefit from as much as solos.

But you have to recognize that the kind of unit that focuses on faction play is a different kind that those who focus on comp play or group queue. We can't get the thing our unit is about in either of those arenas, because we are about fighting with our faction and unit is the big war between Clan and IS. Faction Play, flawed as it may be, is still the heart and soul of a unit like ours. And the same is true for many other units. We are the ones who have put time and effort into making faction hubs work, we are the ones who facilitate introductory evening drops for new FP players, we are the ones who have tried to give constructive and organized feedback for years, we are the ones pushing for roundtables and try to make this whole thing real. We put in a lot of work, and there is nothing else for us. Can you see how someone showing up and saying we are the problem and should be barred from the game feels unfair?

You're probably right that FP can't make do without solos, I agree with that. Solos are, or should be, the oil in the matchmaking machinery that makes matches in a limited population possible by filling out the teams.

FP also can't make do without units though. Units and faction organization is the heart and soul of Faction Play, community work is very important for a project like this. Maybe unit players are a minority, but they facilitate a majority of the supporting community functions that is needed to make a community oriented game mode work.

How to reduce pugstomps?

First of all I beleive that we have to be prepared to accept a reduction, getting rid of unbalanced matches isn't realistic in a mode like this, but there could be less of them.

The first thing I would to is build teams around groups. As far as possible the game should start by finding a group for each side of the match and them fill out the remaining slots with solos. This way there should be one group in each team most of the time that could take command and call the match with a proper plan, which is the main key to make the most of solo players.

I also thing Faction play should have a small barrier for entry. Not a skill barrier, because some people have legitimate reasons being unable to improve and they shouldn't be punished for it, but you don't need to have access to FP as a complete newbie. So just getting some mechs of your own, playing through the tutorial and all you cadet matches. Then FP unlocks. I thing that would improve Faction play a little and be better fot the newbies too.

we are in mostly agreement, as long as the proposed wall is relatively low. id like faction play to fill up more and get teired a bit into 2 groups, newer and veteran.veterans are those who average over x amount of match score a game for the last x games theyve played, and newbs are those who havent played x amount of fw games or havent met the score requirement. groups are sorted based the average in the group.

once you have that you can start doing some of the optional things ive been suggesting, like an academy teir with pilot story plot points for were they are in the overall scheme (did a thread with... moosegun were he pitched it and we discussed it, and came up with a system like that), or stock mechs for one level and mechlab mechs for the is v clan conflicts, and a revamp of how mercenaries work. any one of those three and boom, faction play sounds pretty awesome.

i like discussing this with you, you seem to see reason, and respond with something substantive to bounce back and forth on.
most of the time these forums seem filled will a lot of typing and not a lot of meaning behind it all. your a breathe of fresh air from that.

[Daidachi]

Sjorpha, on 04 February 2017 - 06:54 AM, said:

On these points I agree with you.

Pugstomps are super boring for us too, it's not like winning big is that much more fun or more intersting than losing big. So there is no conflict of interest in trying to facilitate better balanced matches in Faction Play, this is something the units would benefit from as much as solos.

But you have to recognize that the kind of unit that focuses on faction play is a different kind that those who focus on comp play or group queue. We can't get the thing our unit is about in either of those arenas, because we are about fighting with our faction and unit is the big war between Clan and IS. Faction Play, flawed as it may be, is still the heart and soul of a unit like ours. And the same is true for many other units. We are the ones who have put time and effort into making faction hubs work, we are the ones who facilitate introductory evening drops for new FP players, we are the ones who have tried to give constructive and organized feedback for years, we are the ones pushing for roundtables and try to make this whole thing real. We put in a lot of work, and there is nothing else for us. Can you see how someone showing up and saying we are the problem and should be barred from the game feels unfair?

You're probably right that FP can't make do without solos, I agree with that. Solos are, or should be, the oil in the matchmaking machinery that makes matches in a limited population possible by filling out the teams.

FP also can't make do without units though. Units and faction organization is the heart and soul of Faction Play, community work is very important for a project like this. Maybe unit players are a minority, but they facilitate a majority of the supporting community functions that is needed to make a community oriented game mode work.

How to reduce pugstomps?

First of all I beleive that we have to be prepared to accept a reduction, getting rid of unbalanced matches isn't realistic in a mode like this, but there could be less of them.

The first thing I would to is build teams around groups. As far as possible the game should start by finding a group for each side of the match and them fill out the remaining slots with solos. This way there should be one group in each team most of the time that could take command and call the match with a proper plan, which is the main key to make the most of solo players.

I also thing Faction play should have a small barrier for entry. Not a skill barrier, because some people have legitimate reasons being unable to improve and they shouldn't be punished for it, but you don't need to have access to FP as a complete newbie. So just getting some mechs of your own, playing through the tutorial and all you cadet matches. Then FP unlocks. I thing that would improve Faction play a little and be better fot the newbies too.

I would actually go so far as to say when you initially queue up as a solo player, you should get assigned to a group that isn't 12 strong (or if it's all solo players, one gets created with the first person to join the queue the leader).

The group then has the opportunity to discuss decks, strategy etc before launching. This would give solo players, as well as small groups more tools to allow them to prepare in advance of a drop - getting together on teamspeak and prepping beforehand is a huge strength of organised groups.

Naterist, this is a game based on an IP, but it isn't a canon product. It hasn't been a canon product for years, and frankly I think that moving away from slavish adherence to the IP as far as rules go would actually help improve balance in the game. Some systems which are fine in tabletop are simply not viable in a multiplayer pvp game.

I agree that pug stomps are dull, but can you get blood from a stone? At least 6 times today alone in FP I've seen pugs (both on my team and on the opposing team) ignore their team mates and go off to do their own thing and die pointlessly, over and over again. Or bring builds that simply do nothing for the team (the pilot who told us on terra therma he was bringing 3 x catapults and 1 x spider for example).

Winning is fun. Winning with the sounds of your friends cracking jokes as the match goes on, while you all work in concert to a common plan in order to win - that's what makes this game fun for me (case in point, Ash threatening to core Carl if he stole anymore of his kills this evening on grim portico, or Daiguren and I both going 'wha' when the drop caller wouldn't confirm which Dai he meant to go scout on hellebore springs).

I'm happy to agree to disagree - I may like the IP an awful lot, but I don't logon to MWO because I have an appreciation for the lore (that I can get from playing TT, a single player pc game, or megamek). I logon to what was billed as a PvP game because I want to become less of a potato, improve, and play as part of a team against others trying to do the same thing. Because friendly competition is cool.

[tee5]

OP's idea is not good.
Why change a system that is good.

The system in CW is good: It has 1 bucket, everyone can play: solo-players, groups from 1-11, and 12 mans.
Your Idea forbids groups of more than 4 players to play the game mode.

All we need is players that can accept a stomp, try to give their best in the current game, allthough it seems lost, and if they have been stompedm, keep on playing.
But the best would be, if they would make an effort, search a Unit, go on teamspeak, and play with their unit-members and other players on teamspeak in groups.

Allthough I haven't read the whole thread I am with most of ASH's ideas and posts.

[naterist]

Daidachi, on 04 February 2017 - 07:16 AM, said:

I would actually go so far as to say when you initially queue up as a solo player, you should get assigned to a group that isn't 12 strong (or if it's all solo players, one gets created with the first person to join the queue the leader).

The group then has the opportunity to discuss decks, strategy etc before launching. This would give solo players, as well as small groups more tools to allow them to prepare in advance of a drop - getting together on teamspeak and prepping beforehand is a huge strength of organised groups.

Naterist, this is a game based on an IP, but it isn't a canon product. It hasn't been a canon product for years, and frankly I think that moving away from slavish adherence to the IP as far as rules go would actually help improve balance in the game. Some systems which are fine in tabletop are simply not viable in a multiplayer pvp game.

I agree that pug stomps are dull, but can you get blood from a stone? At least 6 times today alone in FP I've seen pugs (both on my team and on the opposing team) ignore their team mates and go off to do their own thing and die pointlessly, over and over again. Or bring builds that simply do nothing for the team (the pilot who told us on terra therma he was bringing 3 x catapults and 1 x spider for example).

Winning is fun. Winning with the sounds of your friends cracking jokes as the match goes on, while you all work in concert to a common plan in order to win - that's what makes this game fun for me (case in point, Ash threatening to core Carl if he stole anymore of his kills this evening on grim portico, or Daiguren and I both going 'wha' when the drop caller wouldn't confirm which Dai he meant to go scout on hellebore springs).

I'm happy to agree to disagree - I may like the IP an awful lot, but I don't logon to MWO because I have an appreciation for the lore (that I can get from playing TT, a single player pc game, or megamek). I logon to what was billed as a PvP game because I want to become less of a potato, improve, and play as part of a team against others trying to do the same thing. Because friendly competition is cool.

we only have 2 differences. 1, i see the problem and im trying to find a better way, you seemed somewhat resigned to how things are.
2.we disagree on how much battletech stuff should be in game. rule wise, ya scrap some of them and get creative. im all for that. but in planetary conquest mode, i want my faction to feel like more than just a colored patch of stars. i want to see lore in the interim of matches.
3. im it because i like this game that reminds me of the games i played and books i got absorbed in as a kid. your in it to talk to your buddies and get kills. this is the key difference between us and my main point when ive been saying more lore and openess in FW. you can do all the joking and kill stealing and drinkin with your buddies where ever else in this game, but lore diehards cant get their lore anywere lese in this game. that is the point ive been trying to get to everyone this whole time. and what im not sure anyone will ever agree with me on at this point, i really dont even care any more.

[Vxheous]

naterist, on 04 February 2017 - 05:21 AM, said:

casual? i remember the first time i met bravoxious he was screening everyone he let into the mj12 group. dont tell me mj12 is for casuals. thats just untrue. same with evil they bill themselves as only the best are allowed in. how is that in any way "casual?"

"casual" =/= suck or bad player, it just means they don't play as often. AW0L is a "casual" unit, where we don't have set play times (members know the usual prime times that others play, but there's no requirement to be online), but being "casual" doesn't mean we bring crap mechs and crap builds. When we play, we still play to win the majority of the time (there are days where some of us derp around, or people are drunk, etc that makes us weaker competition, but that goes for a lot of units). As a unit, we fielded a team for 1 season or MRBC, and while it was fun and we won our NA Division, we found that it fractured our unit member base in that those that did not play comp for the season ended up dropping on their own too mucn and killed unit cohesion. In the end, we went back to playing "casual" even though we had success playing comp at a mid-comp tier level (Div C)

[Dutchoper72]

I read this somewhere else, but I would like it more if Merc's could only drop in a lance. While Loyalist can drop with 12 mans.

[Reza Malin]

MischiefSC, on 03 February 2017 - 08:50 PM, said:

So long as you can't take planets in pug queue. Simple concept - you don't get to dodge playing good teams and still win 'wars'. You want to win wars, you play the best the other side has to offer. You want to hide from everyone organized or skilled you don't get the same tier of 'prizes'.

There is no war though. Its a shambles. Half the time you don't even know what planet you are even fighting on. So that isn't really a realistic argument at this stage, unless they flesh it out. I will happily take a mode that doesn't affect what planets get taken, i couldn't really give a flying frack about any of the planets because player input is so minimal, it has no value.

Also, Mischief, i know you love feeling high and mighty as some kind of BT god. Constantly referring to "bads" in half your posts. What you need to remember, is that to a lot of people its just a game. Among many other games out there. They aren't hiding, they just don't view the "organisation" you talk about as much fun as you do. They don't feel this ultimate battle between skilled warriors that you keep referring to.

PGI's famous "blue screen description" of what FP is complete crap too, before someone decides to post a screenshot of that like it is the holy grail. Its basically meaningless, and only a guideline, not a requirement. If it is was a requirement there would be a limitation on who could take part. Until something like that is in place, people of all types will play FP.

Thus, like any game, opinions differ greatly. You or anyone else don't "own" this game enough to tell people what they should or shouldn't do, anymore than the T5 new guy does to tell you that you use hacks, just because you are just a lot more experienced than him.

No one cares if someone likes to think they are actually a "MechWarrior" in some made up unit, wearing pants on their head, talking about skilled they are. Some people simply want to play FP because its a better game mode than QP, without having to sit on a TS channel with a load of overly geeked out nerds, saying "aff" and "neg". Just to play what is essentially 12 v 12 team death match, albeit, through a medium with a steep learning curve.

The bottom line is, they need to differentiate between the different groups of people that play this game. Sadly there aren't enough players that take part in FP to do this successfully. So until they find a way to engage the other 95% of the playerbase that only really play QP, we are at an impasse and everything people say here is just a load of bluster, much like my post is.

Dutchoper72, on 04 February 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

I read this somewhere else, but I would like it more if Merc's could only drop in a lance. While Loyalist can drop with 12 mans.

That was a thread i made, that got similarly assaulted by a few of the established teams, like this one has.

Edited by Reza Malin, 04 February 2017 - 03:32 PM.

[mesmer]

Look, here's a zen realization for ya:

If there weren't potatoes, there wouldn't be elite players. So, let the potatoes potato.