78 replies to this topic

[TheArisen]

Let's talk about the Heavy PPC.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Heavy_PPC

The main thing I want to say is it should do it's full 15dmg pinpoint, no splash DMG. There are some very good reasons for that.
1. It weighs 10 tons. If you invest the extra 3 tons over the IS & clan ppcs you should get a weapon worth the extra tonnage.
2. It has a minimum range and compared to the clan erppc which doesn't, it also has a smaller maximum range (same as reg ppc).
3. It's hot, as in you'll only really be able to use two especially because of the extra weight compared to the other ppcs.

Any other thoughts or comments on making sure the heavy ppc is worth the weight & heat?

[Juodas Varnas]

Heavy PPC? Scorpion-10M approves.

Now, if it was added to MW:O, i think that the Heavy PPC should deal 15 pts with no splash damage. I mean you ARE paying 3 extra tons and a critslot (4 tons and 2 critslots and less range, if compared to the Clan ERPPC).

I really do think that the guys behind Battletech made a huge mistake by making clantech as overpowered as it was.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 04 February 2017 - 04:08 AM.

[TheArisen]

Juodas Varnas, on 04 February 2017 - 04:05 AM, said:

Heavy PPC? Scorpion-10M approves.

Now, if it was added to MW:O, i think that the Heavy PPC should deal 15 pts with no splash damage. I mean you ARE paying 3 extra tons and a critslot (4 tons and 2 critslots and less range, if compared to the Clan ERPPC).

I really do think that the guys behind Battletech made a huge mistake by making clantech as overpowered as it was.

Haha hopefully someday Quads make it.

Yeah I mean, when compared to the clan erppc even if the hvy does pinpoint DMG I'm not fully convinced that'd be enough. Maybe it should have less heat or something.

[El Bandito]

I'm also fine with that. Heavy PPC has range limitation compared with ERPPCs, anyway.

[Hit the Deck]

Without thinking about IS internal balance between PPC, ERPPC, Heavy PPC, and Light PPC,...

...my gut feeling tells me that Heavy PPC's projectile speed should be in the vicinity of AC/10's projectile speed (the latter could be buffed if necessary).

It should be a medium ranged weapon.

With that said, this definitely needs more thought because you would have 4 types of PPCs and the possible PPC capacitor (experimental tech, but that doesn't raelly mean anything here).

[Snazzy Dragon]

They're gimmicky and limited in applications and that would balance them out naturally even with the entire 15 points of pinpoint and if they were overperforming a good first step would be to give them the ER LL treatment and not allow heavy PPCs to benefit from generic PPC quirks, like how ERLL does not gain benefits from large laser quirks

[Hit the Deck]

I'd also like this weapon to have an enhanced HUD disrupting effect to add some flavor between the different PPCs types.

[TheArisen]

Hit the Deck, on 04 February 2017 - 04:37 AM, said:

Without thinking about IS internal balance between PPC, ERPPC, Heavy PPC, and Light PPC,...

...my gut feeling tells me that Heavy PPC's projectile speed should be in the vicinity of AC/10's projectile speed (the latter could be buffed if necessary).

It should be a medium ranged weapon.

With that said, this definitely needs more thought because you would have 4 types of PPCs and the possible PPC capacitor (experimental tech, but that doesn't raelly mean anything here).

I'm guessing you have some ideas on ppc balance in general.

[B0oN]

We have tons of people moaning about 2 ERPPCs being too good ... now you ask for HeavyPPCs .

Dangerous ?
^^

[Metus regem]

B0oN, on 04 February 2017 - 07:21 AM, said:

We have tons of people moaning about 2 ERPPCs being too good ... now you ask for HeavyPPCs .

Dangerous ?
^^

Compared to the cERPPC, the iHPPC is worse all the way around in TT....

The HPPC takes more Crit space, has less range and weighs 4t more than the cERPPC, so that would balance it against the ERPPC.

[Hit the Deck]

TheArisen, on 04 February 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

I'm guessing you have some ideas on ppc balance in general.

Honestly, I don't but hPPCs do permit some lighter 'Mechs like the SHD-2K, for example, to do 30 pts PPFLD (with JJs as an option), though they would be defenseless up close.

The SHD-2K can equip 2x hPPC, XL300, 15x DHS (still a bit toasty which is not enough), and 4x JJs to make a poptarting 30 PPFLD 95kph Medium.

My hunch tells me that the KGC can do 2hPPC+2AC/10 50pts *hot* PPFLD.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 04 February 2017 - 08:15 AM.

[Escef]

15 points of PPFLD for just 10 tons is too much. Hell, it was too much when it was 15 tons, fragile, and would explode, they had to add a charge mechanic. If we had it 15 point PPFLD HPPCs we'd start seeing 2xHPPC Shadowhawk 2K jump-snipers. And while I'm all for Shadowhawks making a comeback, I don't want it to get nerfed into the ground when the real problem is the OP implementation of a weapon system.

Conversely, 10 tons and heat comparable to an ERPPC for 10+2x2.5 splash with regular PPC range restrictions isn't really worth it, and the weapon would be relegated to gimmicky builds that, similar to (but less pronounced than) LRM and Streak boats, produce high damage numbers without corresponding battlefield efficiency.

I'd propose 12+2x1.5 splash or 13+2x1 splash. It definitely deserves to be better damage allocation than the C-ERPPC given the large differences in tonnage and crits, but 15 points of PPFLD with PPC range is far too strong. I feel the numbers I'm advocating are a good compromise, and an excellent place to start testing from.

EDIT: I was typing this up and almost ready to post it when Hit the Deck posted, and I have to admit being amused that he also saw the potential of jump sniping Shadowhawk 2Ks.

Edited by Escef, 04 February 2017 - 08:18 AM.

[Monkey Lover]

Juodas Varnas, on 04 February 2017 - 04:05 AM, said:

Heavy PPC? Scorpion-10M approves.

Now, if it was added to MW:O, i think that the Heavy PPC should deal 15 pts with no splash damage. I mean you ARE paying 3 extra tons and a critslot (4 tons and 2 critslots and less range, if compared to the Clan ERPPC).

I really do think that the guys behind Battletech made a huge mistake by making clantech as overpowered as it was.

When they changed clan ppc over to 15 dmg without splash on the test server it was awful.

I don't support anything that give use more pin point dmg.

[Andi Nagasia]

my CAT-K2 is ready,

[Hit the Deck]

Monkey Lover, on 04 February 2017 - 08:22 AM, said:

When they changed clan ppc over to 15 dmg without splash on the test server it was awful.

I don't support anything that give use more pin point dmg.

Though this would have longer Cooldown time (likely, since isPPC's CD is the same as cERPPC's) and far slower projectile speed than the cERPPC.

Not saying that it would be balanced with those factored in.

[Metus regem]

Escef, on 04 February 2017 - 08:13 AM, said:

15 points of PPFLD for just 10 tons is too much. Hell, it was too much when it was 15 tons, fragile, and would explode, they had to add a charge mechanic. If we had it 15 point PPFLD HPPCs we'd start seeing 2xHPPC Shadowhawk 2K jump-snipers. And while I'm all for Shadowhawks making a comeback, I don't want it to get nerfed into the ground when the real problem is the OP implementation of a weapon system.

Conversely, 10 tons and heat comparable to an ERPPC for 10+2x2.5 splash with regular PPC range restrictions isn't really worth it, and the weapon would be relegated to gimmicky builds that, similar to (but less pronounced than) LRM and Streak boats, produce high damage numbers without corresponding battlefield efficiency.

I'd propose 12+2x1.5 splash or 13+2x1 splash. It definitely deserves to be better damage allocation than the C-ERPPC given the large differences in tonnage and crits, but 15 points of PPFLD with PPC range is far too strong. I feel the numbers I'm advocating are a good compromise, and an excellent place to start testing from.

EDIT: I was typing this up and almost ready to post it when Hit the Deck posted, and I have to admit being amused that he also saw the potential of jump sniping Shadowhawk 2Ks.

I counter with 15 damage for 10t and 15 heat is balanced against 15 damage for 15t and 1 heat at a longer range.

[Andi Nagasia]

Monkey Lover, on 04 February 2017 - 08:22 AM, said:

When they changed clan ppc over to 15 dmg without splash on the test server it was awful.

I don't support anything that give use more pin point dmg.

i dont agree, it had at a time 6second cooldown(i believe)
that made C-ERPPC nearly useless for Brawling, due to its Cycle,
they also removed Gauss Charge the Same Time, causing the Gauss PPC combo again,
but C-ERPPCs were good on their own, even at 15 damage(Cooldown made then a Sniping only weapon though)

[Monkey Lover]

Hit the Deck, on 04 February 2017 - 08:29 AM, said:

Though this would have longer Cooldown time (likely, since isPPC's CD is the same as cERPPC's) and far slower projectile speed than the cERPPC.

Not saying that it would be balanced with those factored in.

Maybe limit the range to 400m 800max. This would bring it I line with an ac10-20

[Escef]

Metus regem, on 04 February 2017 - 08:33 AM, said:

I counter with 15 damage for 10t and 15 heat is balanced against 15 damage for 15t and 1 heat at a longer range.

Heat is not often a big issue for jump snipers. Have you ever seen what a 2xERPPC Summoner can do? (Granted, the Summoner also relies on a large TC to pump velocity up to Gauss Rifle levels.)

[Monkey Lover]

Andi Nagasia, on 04 February 2017 - 08:43 AM, said:

i dont agree, it had at a time 6second cooldown(i believe)
that made C-ERPPC nearly useless for Brawling, due to its Cycle,
they also removed Gauss Charge the Same Time, causing the Gauss PPC combo again,
but C-ERPPCs were good on their own, even at 15 damage(Cooldown made then a Sniping only weapon though)

On the test server you're correct no one brawled because they just sniped. Shadowcats everywhere with 2 ppcs They were doing the same dmg as a heavy mech with dual gauss. I even ran my kdk3 with 3 of them + daul guess.

50pin point is to much in my view. 3xgauss has already been blocked because 45 was tomuch

Edited by Monkey Lover, 04 February 2017 - 08:53 AM.