155 replies to this topic

[- Pestilence -]

It was a great game but only GRIND will remain...

PGI is turning into Gaijin now.

Edited by Nexxio, 09 February 2017 - 11:55 AM.

[Arianrhod]

Nexxio, on 09 February 2017 - 01:04 AM, said:

It was a great game but only GRIND will remain...

Don't give up hope just yet. I mean, they did give us a forum to talk about this. I like to believe they'll adjust the c-bill prices. (If not. . . No more preorders from me. Sorry PGI.)

[MrHail]

I have 36 mechs as of now.
327 mil??? Yeah screw that.

Will have a look at launch to see if things stay the same.
If they do will move on to something else most likely.
Not that big of a fan for insane grinds.

[mad kat]

MrHail, on 09 February 2017 - 01:11 AM, said:

I have 36 mechs as of now.
327 mil??? Yeah screw that.

Will have a look at launch to see if things stay the same.
If they do will move on to something else most likely.
Not that big of a fan for insane grinds.

609, 700, 000 cbils for me

PGI best revise this, even when the 50k being bounced around ages ago it was way too high it's now double that!!!!

I suspect this game really is dying and they know it it's evidenced in the match making which is getting surely worse (mixing tiers and weight imbalance is common now), seeing the same players repeatedly and from experience there's only die hards left and lot of people have given up on the game. Stomps are now the norm its rare to have a close game any more.

I suspect that this is PGI's last attempt to milk the cash cows before shutting down the servers and throwing all that money they just made into MW5.

If this game wasn't P2W before it most certainly will be now)

Edited by mad kat, 09 February 2017 - 04:30 AM.

[kapusta11]

I think it's ok.

Taking all the useful nodes from armor, lower chassis and heat basics trees will cost you 5 mil.

The other 4.1 will give you pretty much all the expensive modules that were/are out there: radar derp, seismic, adv zoom, ppc speed, laser duration, ballistic velocity, UAC jam chance, etc.

What is great is that you don't have to buy 3 mechs to master one.

[Nightshade24]

RestosIII, on 09 February 2017 - 12:58 AM, said:

Speed Tweak, heat skills, torso twist, etc. weren't locked behind C-Bill walls. They now are. How is that so ******* hard for- Okay, I'm getting really salty here, and I need to stop before I go on a rant. I'll just say this: It's going to cost me a ton of C-Bills to get back to what I have now. I don't have those C-Bills. I can't grind those C-Bills quickly, or even within a month. I don't want to get kicked to the ground like this. That's it.

Most of the new skills current price is only a small 100k, That's literally the same C-bills an average player makes per match or so. You would likely get every skill you want in the same time it took you the first time...

To get 91 of them, that's 9,100,000 C-bills.... which isn't that bad. If you were getting modules before two modules would be FAR more expensive then that...

You listed speed tweak, Heat related skills, Torso twist (not that i cared for this one at all...).

So let's see how many C-bills you need to reach and get each one, shall we?...

16 points for speed tweak.
15 points for heat containment and cool run. (1 point away from getting 10% more ammo!)
17 Points for Torso Twist speed.

That's 16 + 15 + 17, 38 points you require...
38 x 100,000 = 3,800,000... You could probably do that in an afternoon or if you are a busy person at least every afternoon after work or what have you, you are more then capable to get all your beloved skills you had before. Of course that number would be reduced by 30% if you had a hero mech/ premium mech effectively since you gain 30% more c-bills... so about 29 matches instead of 38, with premium time it goes much quicker as well but let's assume you are a free player.

But TBH torso twist isn't even a skill I even find useful, TBH I only go for several things when I get skills... Heat related stuff and speed tweak, everything else is fine I guess but I guess assaults do not mind a bit more mobility related stuff but for the overall it's just speed and cooling ,I only bother getting the rest of the elites due to them doubling my basics.

For me to 'master' each mech the way I care about before hand, it'll be just 22 points, that's just 2,200,000 C-bills for me for the skills I cared about and TBH I would grind the C-bills faster to get those skills then I would get the XP to get to them. However with on t he roadmap talk of boosting the economy those numbers don't mean much. It'll most likely be easier to get c-bills and these numbers are place holders to begin with.

But comparing these to Modules which not many complained about their price, these are cheaper overall as well as acts as a form of balance in some ways... now you can't randomly strap a ECM which is as they say "low investment high reward" and become godly.

What price would you rather have it be instead? 50,000 (the equivilant of a light getting per match purely from spotting and tag's alone). I mean MW: O is relatively easy game to max everything out and be a completion... I rarely use premium time and I barely do my x2's per days and stuff and I usually take long breaks from MW: O before getting right back in and I am nearing my 250 mech limit (after 100 I stopped buying mechs at full price and waited for sales... that might have helped a bit.) and I mastered all those mechs besides my Cicadas and my Crabs. I also started kitting things out with modules and since I am lazy to find them every time and put them on my mechs I just buy a new one for each mech and so far I got several dozen mechs this past few months kited fully out with modules as I slowly stock up c-bills for the 3060's tech coming soon.

I personally do not find the progression hard and compared to most other games this game is rather easy. A new players first mech can easily be the most expensive one and thanks to the drop of the 3 mech rule (in a way your speed tweak is now 66% cheaper... For a Direwolf to get speed tweak for your Direwolf Prime that would be 35,000,000 C-bills... for a Locust that would be 3,000,000 c-bills. For what ever mech you had to get 3 and grind out for, was probably far more then the locust and probably about the same for the current price for your elites...). I do not find the current PTS that steep in price and am personally happy to see it as it means I can customize my mech to more in line with what I want as well as have cheaper modules.

[Nightshade24]

mad kat, on 09 February 2017 - 01:03 AM, said:

-snip- This isn't a change or an overhaul this is a contract of sale breaking game changer removing what i have already paid for and i feel i am well within my rights to demand a refund and uninstall.

"Click here if you agree to our terms and conditions" [✔]

You sort of agreed you acknowledged that things will change and since this is an Multiplayer game under active development this was to be expected... I remember lots of people wanted to refund their entire accounts when clans were added but sadly that's not how life works and despite you claiming this is "game breaking" that is probably a massive exaggeration and if t his was the game from the start you probably won't bat an eyelash. In fact if it was like this and dthey were changing it to the old system you would claim that it's far to expensive to buy 3 total mechs to get speed tweak (between 3,000,000 c-bills (locust stock) to 35,000,000 (direwolf stock)) just to get it for 1 mech. As well as now everything has the same pointless tree with 2 of the skills being worthless and now these 'quirks' that for most mechs 'dictate' what you are going to bring...

You can go ahead and uninstall over a PTS that is subject to change and not participate in changing it... But you can't refund anything besides future preorders you currently have going for you. Which some advice from earlier instances in MW: O history you may possibly regret that but you do what ever you have to do with money.

[Greyhart]

It appears that a skill point can be unlocked basically after each game, or at least every other game.

So it may seem like a crazy grind from 0 to 91 but then isn't that the case for any game that has a levelling system?

After every other match a new player will likely have unlocked a new SP to play with. They can then play the mech again with the new SP.

I think people need to really rethink the way they consider the skill tree. It is no longer a race to master and move on to next mech. It looks like we should be having fewer mechs and investing more in each of them.

after all in WoW you don't have 200 odd characters and expect to level each of them to the top level within a week do you?

Of course the new skill tree buggers PGI business plan as now there is no rush for new mechs

[mad kat]

Nightshade24, on 09 February 2017 - 04:12 AM, said:

"Click here if you agree to our terms and conditions" [✔]

You sort of agreed you acknowledged that things will change and since this is an Multiplayer game under active development this was to be expected... I remember lots of people wanted to refund their entire accounts when clans were added but sadly that's not how life works and despite you claiming this is "game breaking" that is probably a massive exaggeration and if t his was the game from the start you probably won't bat an eyelash. In fact if it was like this and dthey were changing it to the old system you would claim that it's far to expensive to buy 3 total mechs to get speed tweak (between 3,000,000 c-bills (locust stock) to 35,000,000 (direwolf stock)) just to get it for 1 mech. As well as now everything has the same pointless tree with 2 of the skills being worthless and now these 'quirks' that for most mechs 'dictate' what you are going to bring...

You can go ahead and uninstall over a PTS that is subject to change and not participate in changing it... But you can't refund anything besides future preorders you currently have going for you. Which some advice from earlier instances in MW: O history you may possibly regret that but you do what ever you have to do with money.

For the most part you're right but for when 4 and half years of play time the condition has been you need 'X' amount of skill and need to 3 mechs that's fine. That's a condition that has been laid out from the get go from closed beta.

Now not only are they totally changing the set up but they are also putting a payment barrier on what we already have and the 'grind' as Russ said will stay roughly the same where crunching my stats at present i have an excess of XP on the vast majority of my mechs, under this new system i don't even have half the XP requirement to bring them back to their current level.

I won't use the word fraud but it can most certainly be regarded as betrayal of sorts.

[MrHail]

Greyhart, on 09 February 2017 - 04:23 AM, said:

It appears that a skill point can be unlocked basically after each game, or at least every other game.

So it may seem like a crazy grind from 0 to 91 but then isn't that the case for any game that has a levelling system?

After every other match a new player will likely have unlocked a new SP to play with. They can then play the mech again with the new SP.

I think people need to really rethink the way they consider the skill tree. It is no longer a race to master and move on to next mech. It looks like we should be having fewer mechs and investing more in each of them.

after all in WoW you don't have 200 odd characters and expect to level each of them to the top level within a week do you?

Of course the new skill tree buggers PGI business plan as now there is no rush for new mechs

And that's exactly what I wanted.
To play only 2-3 mechs and grind on every one of them as much as I grind in wow for a character.
In wow it makes sense because they and not FTP so they want you playing a looong time for every character. In a FTP game it makes no sense at all. Look at WOT as an example. It only costs xp there.

Comparing MWO with wow is not a good comparison at all. Totally different games.

I do think they will probably change the Cbills cost. I think the way it should be is no cost on the first unlock (maybe a bit more xp cost on every point) and Cbills cost on respecs. Not a huge ammount of Cbills but some Cbills for respec.

It will be a huge grindfest the way it is now. You don't see it that well because you have infinite Cbills on the PTS but you will see it on live if the costs will be same as now.

Edited by MrHail, 09 February 2017 - 04:58 AM.

[Greyhart]

MrHail, on 09 February 2017 - 04:57 AM, said:

And that's exactly what I wanted.
To play only 2-3 mechs and grind on every one of them as much as I grind in wow for a character.
In wow it makes sense because they and not FTP so they want you playing a looong time for every character. In a FTP game it makes no sense at all. Look at WOT as an example. It only costs xp there.

Comparing MWO with wow is not a good comparison at all. Totally different games.

I do think they will probably change the Cbills cost. I think the way it should be is no cost on the first unlock (maybe a bit more xp cost on every point) and Cbills cost on respecs. Not a huge ammount of Cbills but some Cbills for respec.

It will be a huge grindfest the way it is now. You don't see it that well because you have infinite Cbills on the PTS but you will see it on live if the costs will be same as now.

I agree WoW is not a good comparison. However I was looking at an extreme example to make a point.

In reality I am not going to be bothered were the costs is. the Question is do I feel like I am making progress when I play and is it satisfying. I am not in a rush to master every mech in the game. If it was deep and satisfying enough I could see one Mech being like a character in an RPG and being fine with it.

My point is the mind set that a mech must be mastered within X time or X games is wrong for this change. It should be about how does it feel when you are advancing a Mech.

What I don't want to happen is for the mastering of a mech to be too quick. I think we would all agree that if a mech could be mastered in 1 game then there is something wrong. So where is the balance, it can't be the same time as it is now as that would be too short and unsatisfying.

The PTS is not a good way to work out if it is a grind fest due to the added c-bills etc.

However I don't see how making it quicker but adding more Mechs and variants makes it less of a grind fest.

The question has to be; how does it feel to go from 0 to 91 on a single mech; not how long will it take you to completely master every mech in the game.

PS

It is about the reward you are given for playing the game not how long you are playing it. Doing a single game and going cool I now have a new skill point can be more satisfying than doing the 6 games to get speed tweak.

Everything takes time it is just whether it feels enjoyable or not.

Edited by Greyhart, 09 February 2017 - 05:13 AM.

[Cygone]

FupDup, on 08 February 2017 - 04:03 PM, said:

Are you aware that modules can be swapped between mechs for free?

After the initial purchase, modules can be used on hundreds of different mechs for no additional cost.

The new system has a slightly lower upfront cost, but the cost over time is massively higher because you can't swap skills between mechs.

One thing that you are forgetting, where you have been swapping modules around with hundreds of 'Mechs you as the player have already received the bonus of many additional Mechs in your bays while the rest of us have fore-gone the additional 'Mechs to buy Modules.

What you need to ask yourself is, 'How many 'Mechs would you actually have in your garage if you had spent the additional 20million cbills per Mech on its modules in the 1st place'.

Edited by Cygone, 09 February 2017 - 05:19 AM.

[Fox2232]

Weaselball, on 08 February 2017 - 04:08 PM, said:

^ This. Also, I'm sort of disappointed that they are letting you pick up all 91 points. I figured this would've FINALLY given us a reason to, you know, diversify your mechs. Like, make it so you have a total of 91 nodes to choose from, but can only allocate 60 points to the trees.... so pick wisely! But alas, no. It's just go wild with cbills and xp.

Edit: looks like I misspoke. The original text of the PTS notes worded it funny, leading me to believe that 91 was the end-all-be-all for your mech. *shrug*

Trees have currently 338 points to pick from, your disappointment is bit overrated.
Picking 60 would be same as now if trees had 223 nodes total.
And not everyone noticed that some important nodes which are currently in place are not even implemented in tree yet.

[MrHail]

Yeah to me it just feels strange to use CBILLS for Skills.
Skills in FTP games take XP. Like your mech warrior gets better at driving and shooting with a mech.

You BUY stuff like weapons, ammo, mechs etc.
You LEVEL UP mechs/tanks/whatever with XP.

I know that they felt like they needed to add something in because they removed modules which used to cost Cbills but those could be changed from mech to mech. I have modules worth 60mil Cbill on 39 mechs.

60mil Cbills <<<< 354mil Cbills

It's math. I will buy way fewer mechs just because I like all my mechs mastered. I have most of them mastered now. I will not be able to have them mastered after the update. My play time will be the same. But I will have to grind a few months to get to where I am now. See the GRIND??

[GrimRiver]

Old system had you buying 3 mechs, 3 of which you had to install DHS/ENDO/FF and or maybe/maybe not buy new engine/weapons to get those mechs up and running for you to grind just to make your main mech more presentable.

To further top it off, you may or may not have bought mods to buff the ONE or TWO types of weapons on your mech and mech mods to give you better lock time, radar derp or SS, ect.

In the new skill tree ALL of that is compiled into one mech, per mech instead of the round about way of the 3 mech system.

Each mech will be more expensive, yes but that's because there is no other "2" mechs to buy and upgrade.

The prices could be a bit lower though so the task of upgrading favorite mechs won't be AS daunting.

[MrHail]

GrimRiver, on 09 February 2017 - 05:31 AM, said:

Old system had you buying 3 mechs, 3 of which you had to install DHS/ENDO/FF and or maybe/maybe not buy new engine/weapons to get those mechs up and running for you to grind just to make your main mech more presentable.

To further top it off, you may or may not have bought mods to buff the ONE or TWO types of weapons on your mech and mech mods to give you better lock time, radar derp or SS, ect.

In the new skill tree ALL of that is compiled into one mech, per mech instead of the round about way of the 3 mech system.

Each mech will be more expensive, yes but that's because there is no other "2" mechs to buy and upgrade.

The prices could be a bit lower though so the task of upgrading favorite mechs won't be AS daunting.

And at the end of the old system you had 3 different mechs maxed out. At the end of this system you get 1.
If you didn't like 2 of them you could sell them and you still had weapons and engines for future mechs.

Hmmmm

Don't get me wrong. The skill tree looks very interesting just a LOT more GRINDY.

Edited by MrHail, 09 February 2017 - 05:44 AM.

[Swamp Fox II]

There are 338 unlockable nodes in the skill tree, your 'mech can have 91/338 of them. Once the 'mech hits 91 spent, it is "mastered" (but perhaps not really just shut off from new nodes)

[Dogstar]

I think that the price for skill noes is going to cause me to quit the game. I have over 100 IS mechs, none of which are mastered and only a few modules.

With the new system I looks like I'm totally screwed
- I can't afford to skill up my mechs
- I have to chose between spending money on engines or skills
- I won't have anything like enough XP to dig down into the skill trees in order to get the 'module' style effects
- I don' have the time to grind for c-bills even if I wanted to play at a significant disadvantage to everyone else

In short this system adversely affects new and casual players compared to veteran players and screws over people who bought a lot of mechs and didn't play them that much

Smart move PGI...

[GrimRiver]

MrHail, on 09 February 2017 - 05:43 AM, said:

And at the end of the old system you had 3 different mechs maxed out. At the end of this system you get 1.
If you didn't like 2 of them you could sell them and you still had weapons and engines for future mechs.

Hmmmm

Don't get me wrong. The skill tree looks very interesting just a LOT more GRINDY.

It is more grindy, but that time is now gonna be spent grinding 1 mech instead of grinding the 2 other mechs that people may never use again.

Most mechs tend to have 1 or 2 good version out of a chassis, even fewer have 3.

I'd rather spend that time on the mech chassis I like then grinding those I don't.

[Slambot]

Yet, some mechs have lots of good variants like most clan mechs. Just some off the top of my head..

Centurions.
Hunchies
Marauders
Marauder II-Cs
Kodiaks (all are pretty good two just shine out)
Night Gyrs
Mad Dogs
Maulers
King Crabs
Hunchie II-Cs
Warhammers
Black Knights
Hell, any mech that can boat will be very good under the new system.