155 replies to this topic

[Fox2232]

Dogstar, on 09 February 2017 - 06:04 AM, said:

I think that the price for skill noes is going to cause me to quit the game. I have over 100 IS mechs, none of which are mastered and only a few modules.

With the new system I looks like I'm totally screwed
- I can't afford to skill up my mechs
- I have to chose between spending money on engines or skills
- I won't have anything like enough XP to dig down into the skill trees in order to get the 'module' style effects
- I don' have the time to grind for c-bills even if I wanted to play at a significant disadvantage to everyone else

In short this system adversely affects new and casual players compared to veteran players and screws over people who bought a lot of mechs and didn't play them that much

Smart move PGI...

That's would be touching story if it was based on reality. But it isn't.
With new system you gain XP for 91 points faster than you did with old system. Cost to place those points in C-Bills is much lower than before considering that you had to pay a lot for modules which now cost 100k and that getting 2nd mech alone more often than not did cost more than skilling up entirely new tree.
Previous Grind for global XP for modules is gone.
- - - -
There are problems, new system is far from perfect. But I see no reason to make false stories.

[MrHail]

Fox2232, on 09 February 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

That's would be touching story if it was based on reality. But it isn't.
With new system you gain XP for 91 points faster than you did with old system. Cost to place those points in C-Bills is much lower than before considering that you had to pay a lot for modules which now cost 100k and that getting 2nd mech alone more often than not did cost more than skilling up entirely new tree.
Previous Grind for global XP for modules is gone.
- - - -
There are problems, new system is far from perfect. But I see no reason to make false stories.

How do you get the points faster than the old system exactly???
Not sure I follow you..
The way I play it takes me a day to max out 3 mechs under this system.
I don't make 27 mil Cbills a day though or 400.000 XP...so...don't really understand what you are talking about.

I can guarantee you it will take way longer to max a mech than it does now. The numbers don't lie.
They told us it will be the same amount of time to get a mech to max and that was not really true was it?

Edited by MrHail, 09 February 2017 - 08:12 AM.

[Roughneck45]

Fox2232, on 09 February 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

But I see no reason to make false stories.

Its not false, maybe a little dramatic, but not false.

Modules were a one time investment and you could swap them in and out. Now that cost is built into each mech. So getting a large garage back up to snuff is going to be a massive endeavor.

MrHail, on 09 February 2017 - 08:11 AM, said:

How do you get the points faster than the old system exactly???

Hes saying they cost less than the module investment we currently have. Which is true, if you were buying modules for every mech you own, which hardly anyone does.

[Stf Sgt Marblez]

I started playing this game in august of last year, I'm only tier 4 but hear me out;

1. The Elephant in the room: Too much of a c-bill sink
2. No one cares how many modules you have/haven't bought
3. seemingly random placement of skills has got me all confuzzled

So its a new system that got shoved down our throat (kinda, still just a pts) and very few of us seem keen on it in its current state. Its almost like we're talkin about the obamacare all over again..

While it might not be perfect Ill remain cautiously optimistc about it

[Zeleglok]

Currently mastering a mech at live servers costs ~56k xp on that mech and ~14k to basic two others, that gives ~84k xp altogether. Buying the 4th variant means spending 56k xp and mastering one of the basiced is 43k.

I'd suggest lowering the xp price for mastering a totally NEW mech to, say, 91k xp (which is 1.5 times less than PTS value), with further mechs of same chassis (including different variants) lowering the xp price by additional 15% each, up to 30% total discount.
So it would be 91k for a new chassis, 77.35k for a 2nd mech of that chassis, 63.7k for the 3rd, 4th and so on mechs regardless of the variant. Which keeps the required XP higher than it is on live server, but there's no more single-time requirement of ~600k gxp for all modules in the game / ~200k for those you really need. So it's roughly the same.

As for cbill prices, putting a brand new set of modules to a mech usually means spending 18 million cbills. Currently on PTS we have 50% of that price, but, as people above mentioned, almost nobody buys new modules for their new mechs. I totally understand the position to increase grinding required in this case, but why not compromise a little more ? Make it, say, 25% (4.5 million cbills) for the first time a mech is mastered, which will allow a new player to get a fully operational mech from his cadet bonus and first 25-50 games farm. And further reduce the cost for respecs, so it would be ~1.5-2 million for full respec and ~0.75-1 million for a partical respec most people would do.

PS: Dear PGI, Javelin is a light mech, that's the trouble. A not so big group of people had asked you very loudly to bring a new light, but not many would preorder it. Announce a Turkina / Annihilator and you'll have a sellout outperformed by Mara/KDK only

Edited by Zeleglok, 09 February 2017 - 09:30 AM.

[Greyhart]

I seem to recall people complaining that they had every mech mastered and billions in c-bills under the old system?

They add in a longer skill tree and c-bill sink and people complain (yea ok it's a legitimate complaint, but go on let me poke up).

Maybe just maybe the idea of the new skill tree is that we have fewer mechs that we play more?

[Zeleglok]

Greyhart, on 09 February 2017 - 09:04 AM, said:

I seem to recall people complaining that they had every mech mastered and billions in c-bills under the old system?
They add in a longer skill tree and c-bill sink and people complain (yea ok it's a legitimate complaint, but go on let me poke up).
Maybe just maybe the idea of the new skill tree is that we have fewer mechs that we play more?

I personally don't have very much mechs and cbills (always <100 million, often <50 million and ~100 mechs in hangar).

Greyhart, on 09 February 2017 - 09:04 AM, said:

They add in a longer skill tree and c-bill sink and people complain (yea ok it's a legitimate complaint, but go on let me poke up).
Maybe just maybe the idea of the new skill tree is that we have fewer mechs that we play more?

It encourages to make a well-working build and play this build only, that's the issue. It's also still hard for a new player to get a single mech he can fully enjoy (though easier than it was, which is a nice intention).

Edited by Zeleglok, 09 February 2017 - 11:59 AM.

[RestosIII]

Nightshade24, on 09 February 2017 - 04:07 AM, said:

-snip-

Okay, so, 3.8m PER VARIANT I own. 190m straight up cost. Oh, but wait! There's more! Some of my mechs are getting their offensive quirks gutted because of the skill tree! So I need to add weapon squirks on some of my mechs to make up for it! So, let's just give a small estimate of... 220m? At a constant rate of 200,000 C-Bills per match, I'd need 1,100 matches to get back to where I was right now on the live server, not counting the XP cost increases on some of my mechs. That's way too much for me, as casual-*** player.

[Fox2232]

MrHail, on 09 February 2017 - 08:11 AM, said:

How do you get the points faster than the old system exactly???
Not sure I follow you..
The way I play it takes me a day to max out 3 mechs under this system.
I don't make 27 mil Cbills a day though or 400.000 XP...so...don't really understand what you are talking about.

I can guarantee you it will take way longer to max a mech than it does now. The numbers don't lie.
They told us it will be the same amount of time to get a mech to max and that was not really true was it?

Roughneck45, on 09 February 2017 - 08:28 AM, said:

Its not false, maybe a little dramatic, but not false.

Modules were a one time investment and you could swap them in and out. Now that cost is built into each mech. So getting a large garage back up to snuff is going to be a massive endeavor.

You guys are all about numbers, right? Did you even care to start test client?
Well, I'll give you lovely example:

Arctic Cheetah:

Spoiler

Type	New Tree	Old Unlock Table	Cost GXP	Cost C-Bills
STD & ER Laser Range	8,00%	10,00%	3500	3000000
STD & ER Laser Duration	-10,00%	0,00%
STD & ER Laser Cooldown	-4,00%	-12,00%	3500	3000000
STD & ER Laser Heat	-4,00%	0,00%
Weapon Cooldown	0,00%	5,00%
Weapon Convergence Speed	0,00%	15,00%
Max Heat	15,00%	20,00%
Heat Dissipation	10,00%	15,00%
Armor Bonus	10,00%	0
Structure Bonus	35,00%	0
Fall Damage	-50,00%	-20 ~ -35%	15000	6000000
Mech Top Speed	7,50%	7,50%
Hill Climb	15,00%	10,00%	15000	6000000
Acceleration Rate	50,00%	15,00%
Decceleration Rate	40,00%	15,00%
Turn Rate	30,00%	5,00%
Initial Thrust of Jump Jets	5,00%	0,00%
Jump Jet Burn Time	5,00%	0,00%
Startup Duration	-28,00%	-33,00%
Screen Shake	-50,00%	-33,00%	5000	2000000
Advanced Zoom	4x	4x	5000	2000000
Speed Retention	30,00%	30,00%	15000	6000000
Sensor Range	28,00%	25,00%	12500	2000000
Target info Gathering	35,00%	25,00%	10000	4000000
Target Decay Duration	2,1	2,5	5000	6000000
Radar deprivation	100,00%	100	15000	6000000
Seismic Sensor Range	200	250	17500	6000000
360 Target Retention Range	400	200	15000	6000000
ECM Target Range Reduction	45,00%	0	n/a	n/a
Upper Torso Twist	0,00%	5,00%
Upper Torso Twist Speed	0,00%	5,00%
Arm Speed	0,00%	5,00%

What You see are gained stats in New Tree compared to complete potential Gain from Old tree + Cost (In case that bonus comes from Module).
Yes, That build with new Tree where I spent 91 points (136,500 XP + 9.1 million C-Bills) would cost me 140k GXP + 60 millions C-Bils just on those lines with modules.
That would be if old system allowed to equip all those 14 modules I picked instead of just 4.

If you compare those two from practical and numerical standpoint. All weapons got slight nerf. Lasers got bit bigger nerf due to worse heat management. And nearly everything else (Survival, tactics, ... related) got boost. And not small one.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
If Above is not simple enough to understand...
XP: Basic Skills total Cost = 14250 * 3 mechs = 42750
XP: Elite Skills total Cost = 21500 * 3 mechs = 64500
XP: Master Efficiency on one Mech = 21500
Total if we throw other two into trash = 128750 XP.

To get 91 points in New Tree = 136500 XP.

Now consider that previous 128750 XP will get you bonus of only 4 modules while new 136500 XP will grant you 14 modules.
- - - -
Now comedy moment:
What's usual advice to new player regarding modules?
A: Ignore them for now as they are expensive and get a few mechs 1st.

So, before player had to level without power gained by modules and in the end got 4, now he gets 14 or more while leveling and they cost close to nothing in comparison.

Edited by Fox2232, 09 February 2017 - 10:49 AM.

[MrHail]

Fox2232, on 09 February 2017 - 10:46 AM, said:

---

Who buys modules on all mechs??
Do you actually do that?

Do you enjoy playing dumb?

I have 3 sets of modules for 39 mechs.
I do have to change them if I decide to play more than 2-3 mechs at a time but that is soooo rare.
Why would you buy 39 Radar deps??? Why would you buy 39 Seismic Sensors???

You just ignore facts and move on to your fanboism.


That are a lot of ppl that would defend something to the end of the earth just because they can't see the big picture. Hard when you are such a BIG fan of the game right?

Edited by MrHail, 09 February 2017 - 10:56 AM.

[Fox2232]

MrHail, on 09 February 2017 - 10:53 AM, said:

Who buys modules on all mechs??
Do you actually do that?

Do you enjoy playing dumb?

I have 3 sets of modules for 39 mechs.
I do have to change them if I decide to play more than 2-3 mechs at a time but that is soooo rare.
Why would you buy 39 Radar deps??? Why would you buy 39 Seismic Sensors???

You just ignore facts and move on to your fanboism.


That are a lot of ppl that would defend something to the end of the earth just because they can't see the big picture. Hard when you are such a BIG fan of the game right?

According to forums a lot of people.
No, I can't afford it in current Game (But with new system, it is dirty cheap).

I would if I did, but playing mind games of that calibre requires quite intelligent audience. So, no games here for now.

That's actually sad.
That's even more sad.
Because now they cost 3.9M C-Bills altogether and I do not have to swap them in contrast to previous 6M C-Bills for just one.

1st part is so wrong, and you know it. But 2nd part is correct, I am mathematical freak of nature which loves logic and complex structures/mathematical models.


"There" sounds bit better to me instead of "That are...". Have you noticed my feedback threads? I think they are quite critical. And in reality, I am not BIG fan since I love classical mech looks instead of this "wanna be futuristic" - Warhammer and such. And I see a lot of flaws. But still, this Tech Tree update is like xmass. Yes, rainy xmass with a lot of dirt in snow, but xmass nonetheless.

Edited by Fox2232, 09 February 2017 - 11:18 AM.

[MrHail]

Yeah. Ok man you won. I'm a sad person for playing 3 mechs at a time. So sad. I'm gonna go cry. The sadness....

The modules will be so much cheaper now. It's so cool that you are basically forced to sink all your Cbills into them instead of having fun playing more mechs.

You also totally got me with that typo man. You discredited the **** outta me.

I do agree with you on one point man. You are a special guy that loves certain things. Would not go as far as to say you love logic but you sure love the developers of this game man. They have a special place in your heart I'm sure

Don't get me wrong I like the skill tree also. I just think the price on it is gouging for sure. Maybe they will change their mind on the grindfest and think of the people that actually have a life.

Edited by MrHail, 09 February 2017 - 11:35 AM.

[Fox2232]

MrHail, on 09 February 2017 - 11:34 AM, said:

Yeah. Ok man you won. I'm a sad person for playing 3 mechs at a time. So sad. I'm gonna go cry. The sadness....

The modules will be so much cheaper now. It's so cool that you are basically forced to sink all your Cbills into them instead of having fun playing more mechs.

You also totally got me with that typo man. You discredited the **** outta me.

I do agree with you on one point man. You are a special guy that loves certain things. Would not go as far as to say you love logic but you sure love the developers of this game man. They have a special place in your heart I'm sure

Don't get me wrong I like the skill tree also. I just think the price on it is gouging for sure. Maybe they will change their mind on the grindfest and think of the people that actually have a life.

I know, I know, ...

All 3 of those mechs you play? *nodding head*

I am sorry, looks like I failed there, I aimed for 5 stars ***** (Like this).

Well, you think that you agree, but that's only thanks to your personal perception of reality. Same goes for rest of that as I have nothing to do with Devs.

That's finally good way to communicate. Not the initial cost, that's actually pretty cheap 100k per SP. But respec is what's wrong (25k removal + 100k for new, even if it is exactly the one you removed).

[generalazure]

I did not expect to see so many people who cannot see the difference between regular skills and modules under the old system. The former (speed, heat cap and dissipation, agility) are pretty much essential on almost any mech while the latter were introduced as more specialized, optional upgrades for "tryhards" (read: matches outside solo queue). Imho there is a reason that so far skills cost no credits and do not require choosing while modules are super expensive and you can only take a few.

In other words, I don't strictly need no stinkin radar derp or hill climb, but there is no way I'll play target dummy in hot, sluggish mechs due to losing the current skill boosts. Mastering those machines once was annoying enough, thank you very much.

And don't even get me started on the blanket nerf on offensive IS quirks, which I'd also have to buy back via the skill tree....

[Bud Crue]

RestosIII, on 09 February 2017 - 10:12 AM, said:

Okay, so, 3.8m PER VARIANT I own. 190m straight up cost. Oh, but wait! There's more! Some of my mechs are getting their offensive quirks gutted because of the skill tree! So I need to add weapon squirks on some of my mechs to make up for it! So, let's just give a small estimate of... 220m? At a constant rate of 200,000 C-Bills per match, I'd need 1,100 matches to get back to where I was right now on the live server, not counting the XP cost increases on some of my mechs. That's way too much for me, as casual-*** player.

Posted this elsewhere.

Bud Crue, on 09 February 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

This just occurred to me:

Since it is pretty clear that not only is PGI abandoning the need for three rule of mech mastering, they also be actively encouraging...almost requiring...all but the most c-bill and XP rich players to abandon the desire to play or even keep most of their mechs (see nerf spreadsheets making most variants of a chassis nearly identical (at least in the IS), see 3x costs for leveling, etc.).

So if that is in fact their goal (why they would want to do this I have no idea since it will destroy diversity in this game, but this is in fact what they appear to be encouraging...but I digress), why not do this to placate much of the outrage folks are consistently expressing:

Any mechs sold back are sold back at purchase (c-bill only) price. All XP for an entire chassis is pooled and may be applied to any variant of that chassis.

Right now I will go from 149 mastered mechs to around 15 mastered.
If they did those two things I describe above, it would allow me to master something closer to 50 mechs (a third of my total). Now rationally I should still be pissed off about that, but given the way the currently proposed system appears to function...I'd take it and probably be pretty content despite the need to liquidate 2/3rds of my mechs.

So long story short, if it takes 3x as much XP and excess c-bills to get folks to get with the "a third of your mechs are now worthless or redundant under the new skills tree" program; give us an incentive to embrace that program. Let me sell my excess mechs at cost so I have the cbills, and let me pool my XP per chassis so I can apply that XP from the three mechs I had to the one mech I am going to go forward with under the new system

[P4riah1]

For me, the prices are the core issue. I don't play the game enough to rack up tons of cbills. I own 26 mechs and have 95m in the bank, and only own at most 15 total modules. I tend to only buy the mechs I have an existing like for from the other games and books, and then mess around with multiple builds for all of them rather than buying more mechs. I doubt my situation is unique.

If this goes live with these prices, I will not be able to get more than a few of my mechs up to snuff, and the grind for more money would take me literally years given the amount of time I can devote to this game (not a lot). It would also punish me for experimenting with new builds. I would literally be having to grind cbills to optimize a new build even tho I already own the weapons and other parts in question. This would probably mean the limited time I devote to this game would be repurposed towards more profitable ends.

If they reduce the prices drastically, it has potential to be a good positive change, at least I wouldn't have to go module hunting anymore.

[xe N on]

The costs would be ok, if the system wouldn't be about specific skills to unlock. If instead you could buy "generic" points per mech and distribute those points freely and fluidly without respec costs between all skills it would be ok.

However, fixed skill tree with respec costs sucks.

[Arianrhod]

Fox2232, on 09 February 2017 - 10:46 AM, said:

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
If Above is not simple enough to understand...
XP: Basic Skills total Cost = 14250 * 3 mechs = 42750
XP: Elite Skills total Cost = 21500 * 3 mechs = 64500
XP: Master Efficiency on one Mech = 21500
Total if we throw other two into trash = 128750 XP.

To get 91 points in New Tree = 136500 XP.

Now consider that previous 128750 XP will get you bonus of only 4 modules while new 136500 XP will grant you 14 modules.

I've brought this up before, I'll bring it up again. Stop treating buying and levelling 3 mechs variants as if you're just mastering 1 mech. I know some people play that way, but a lot of people don't—In fact I'd even say the majority; it's only omnimechs that people only want one of, and often players still carry multiple variants of those. So, in live, it definitely does not cost 128750 XP to master one mech. It costs 128570 to master one mech and elite two mechs, which gives you THREE playable mechs. Compare to PST where it's 136500 to master just one mech.

But XP isn't really the problem, it's c-bills. Not to beat a dead horse here but I will say again: it would take me 4,732 matches to re-master all of my mechs, if I averaged 100,000 c-bills per match (now I will probably average a fair bit more than that, but just to be conservative). That's literally as many matches as I've played Ever.

[MrHail]

Arianrhod, on 09 February 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

I've brought this up before, I'll bring it up again. Stop treating buying and levelling 3 mechs variants as if you're just mastering 1 mech. I know some people play that way, but a lot of people don't—In fact I'd even say the majority; it's only omnimechs that people only want one of, and often players still carry multiple variants of those. So, in live, it definitely does not cost 128750 XP to master one mech. It costs 128570 to master one mech and elite two mechs, which gives you THREE playable mechs. Compare to PST where it's 136500 to master just one mech.

But XP isn't really the problem, it's c-bills. Not to beat a dead horse here but I will say again: it would take me 4,732 matches to re-master all of my mechs, if I averaged 100,000 c-bills per match (now I will probably average a fair bit more than that, but just to be conservative). That's literally as many matches as I've played Ever.

You are wasting your time man....the guys that love PGI don't care about that and the ones that care about their time are all pissed. We'll see what PGI does about it. They changed their mind in the past...maybe they will this time.

We'll see...

[Fox2232]

Arianrhod, on 09 February 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

I've brought this up before, I'll bring it up again. Stop treating buying and levelling 3 mechs variants as if you're just mastering 1 mech. I know some people play that way, but a lot of people don't—In fact I'd even say the majority; it's only omnimechs that people only want one of, and often players still carry multiple variants of those. So, in live, it definitely does not cost 128750 XP to master one mech. It costs 128570 to master one mech and elite two mechs, which gives you THREE playable mechs. Compare to PST where it's 136500 to master just one mech.

But XP isn't really the problem, it's c-bills. Not to beat a dead horse here but I will say again: it would take me 4,732 matches to re-master all of my mechs, if I averaged 100,000 c-bills per match (now I will probably average a fair bit more than that, but just to be conservative). That's literally as many matches as I've played Ever.

Well, XP argument may be considered as correct. But if we do so, there is new question which not many will like to hear:
"Didn't you play mech after you mastered it? Why don't you have additional XP?"
In other words: "Anyone who lacks XP for new system spent most of his time Mastering mech and jumping to next one instead of enjoying it fully Mastered one."
From What you wrote, it is apparently not your case, but it is case for most. And then they should be used to play mech which are not mastered since that's what they are doing 80~90% of their time spent in game.

Ad for Your Cash issue, that one is quite real. But it has it flaws too. 1st one is rhetorical. Being conservative and stating that you make only 100k C-Bills per match is actually being pessimistic as conservative person would probably give benefit of doubt and used overshot value like 200k. (To reduce needed number of games.)
2nd is: No matter how many mech you have, you's still be able to fully skill quite reasonable number of them. If you have 100 of them and manage to skill up only 40. I am sure you'' skill up those you play and enjoy most. And while you enjoy those huge benefits of new tree, you'll gain money for rest of them in background.

Then there is real benefit of no more sharing Modules and looking for that mech where you left it. What does it actually cost to have modules on few full dropdecks in current system? Well, now Modules are out of way as they are as cheap as +2% to Laser Range.