138 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

I have seen several concerns regarding how the skill tree encourages boating. One thing some may not be considering, is if you are purely boating, you have to contend with Ghost Heat, which is definitely a downside.

Another note, this is the same situation with the current module system.

If the skill point pool is lowered, I could see this being more of an issue, but as is I think its not bad.

[Sorbic]

Playing around with it I did feel like boating would be rewarded by not having to split up points. I wonder if they could make some kind of system where players with just one category of weapon loses access to say 4-5 skill points.

[Ravenlord]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2017 - 11:10 PM, said:

I have seen several concerns regarding how the skill tree encourages boating. One thing some may not be considering, is if you are purely boating, you have to contend with Ghost Heat, which is definitely a downside.

Another note, this is the same situation with the current module system.

If the skill point pool is lowered, I could see this being more of an issue, but as is I think its not bad.

But you already have ghost heat now, so no change there? People are still boating like there's no tomorrow and with the new skill tree they get the ability to put some nice quirks like reduced heat in their boats. This makes them even more effective while before to get those good quirks they would have been foced to take a variant with other disadvantages like worse hardpoint placement or less hardpoints in total.

Also, as has been said multiple times, you are better off in terms of points you can spend somewhere else if you only put in and research quirks for one particular weapon instead of going for a mix.

Edited by Ravenlord, 08 February 2017 - 11:27 PM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2017 - 11:10 PM, said:

I have seen several concerns regarding how the skill tree encourages boating. One thing some may not be considering, is if you are purely boating, you have to contend with Ghost Heat, which is definitely a downside.

Another note, this is the same situation with the current module system.

If the skill point pool is lowered, I could see this being more of an issue, but as is I think its not bad.

Boating means you only have to spend 20-25 points in weapon skills to max out your firepower, leaving you free to max your speed, agility, armor, and radar derp/seismic. A more diverse loadout needs to sacrifice more elsewhere to maximize that firepower.

You may have to deal with ghost heat by staggering your fire, but you generally have to do that with mixed loadouts anyway, as different weapon types mean different ranges and projectile velocities. A mixed loadout would only have an alpha advantage against at close range or against slower targets.

[Gas Guzzler]

Kaeb Odellas, on 08 February 2017 - 11:42 PM, said:

Boating means you only have to spend 20-25 points in weapon skills to max out your firepower, leaving you free to max your speed, agility, armor, and radar derp/seismic. A more diverse loadout needs to sacrifice more elsewhere to maximize that firepower.

You may have to deal with ghost heat by staggering your fire, but you generally have to do that with mixed loadouts anyway, as different weapon types mean different ranges and projectile velocities. A mixed loadout would only have an alpha advantage against at close range or against slower targets.

Yeah but there is no reasonable way to support super mixed builds like that.. even the module system had the same issue..

[Gas Guzzler]

Besides, aside from a few things most of the weapon bonuses are pretty minor. Less cooldown than modules, only -4% heat... it seems like if you had a build with lots of variety, those kinds of changes wouldnt make a big difference. UACs and PPCs have some good stuff but thats it really...

[Kaeb Odellas]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2017 - 11:57 PM, said:

Besides, aside from a few things most of the weapon bonuses are pretty minor. Less cooldown than modules, only -4% heat... it seems like if you had a build with lots of variety, those kinds of changes wouldnt make a big difference. UACs and PPCs have some good stuff but thats it really...

There is certainly a way to do that. Either remove the firepower skills, or replace them with universal firepower skills.

[MechaBattler]

That's not worth much. It's a necessary balance component as is. Not an excuse to give boating more of a buff.

[Reno Blade]

If everyone only specs 1-2 weapon branches and then rest in survivability and operations to survive longer ... yes still boating.

If the skill tree whould have some synergy nodes, it could increase performance of other weapons by specing in one branch, such as
- reduce cooldown of ballistic weapons by 2% if you have 10 points in Laser branch.
even if it's not much, it could give incentive to use multiple weapon branches.

[Gas Guzzler]

I can't help but feel like this issue is being overstated and is more based on perception rather than actual impact. Frankly, if you have 3-4 different weapons, chances are 1 or 2 of those weapon types are either going to make up only a small percentage of your firepower, or are going to have a very limited or niche use, or both. Investing skills in those weapons just isnt worth it. A marginal improvement in range and duration for your couple of back up medium lasers is nothing compared to the gains on your SRM racks, or your AC20, or all your LRMs, or whatever else you are trying to do with the mech. Its not like you had modules for them in the first place.

I challenge someone to come.up with a loadout that is really hurt by not being able.to skill up all 3-4 of its weapon types?

Kaeb Odellas, on 09 February 2017 - 12:00 AM, said:

There is certainly a way to do that. Either remove the firepower skills, or replace them with universal firepower skills.

Remove the firepower skills? They are supposed to make up for weapon modules. Universal firepower skills? What happened to trying to specialize and tailor a mech to a specific role?

MechaBattler, on 09 February 2017 - 12:18 AM, said:

That's not worth much. It's a necessary balance component as is. Not an excuse to give boating more of a buff.

You mean like how the existing module system doesnt support boating? Oh wait, it does.

Besides, I thought role warfare is what we were after. Frankenmechs take away from role warfare

But really, like I said you arent actually going to benefit an appreciable amount from the skills on your backup weapons.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 09 February 2017 - 08:06 AM.

[Vxheous]

Currently the best IS assault is arguably the battlemaster 2c with boated 5 LPL. This system makes that mech even more powerful (and 5 LPL breaks ghost heat) vs meta clan builds like laser vomit or gauss/ppc, both of which will require more pts spent in offense to achieve same level of weapon quirking.

[Gas Guzzler]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 09 February 2017 - 08:09 AM, said:

Currently the best IS assault is arguably the battlemaster 2c with boated 5 LPL. This system makes that mech even more powerful (and 5 LPL breaks ghost heat) vs meta clan builds like laser vomit or gauss/ppc, both of which will require more pts spent in offense to achieve same level of weapon quirking.

It has less range than it did. If anything felt strong it was a Timber with 20% ER PPC velocity... Yeah I didnt fully quirk put the gauss or bother with Cooldown/range on the ER PPCs (because they just arent needed)... but man. That velocity sync. I even had space for the JJ skills.. in case they are ever not useless.

[Koruthaiolos]

Kaeb Odellas, on 08 February 2017 - 11:42 PM, said:

Boating means you only have to spend 20-25 points in weapon skills to max out your firepower, leaving you free to max your speed, agility, armor, and radar derp/seismic. A more diverse loadout needs to sacrifice more elsewhere to maximize that firepower.

You may have to deal with ghost heat by staggering your fire, but you generally have to do that with mixed loadouts anyway, as different weapon types mean different ranges and projectile velocities. A mixed loadout would only have an alpha advantage against at close range or against slower targets.

The one way to fix it is by not having to unlock useless skill nodes to hit your target i.e. not have to waste skill points to get to the ones you want. A linear skill tree would solve all of our problems.

Edited by Raasul, 09 February 2017 - 08:21 AM.

[Snazzy Dragon]

It's really an issue of buffing mechs like the kodiak and mx90 that already boat while punching mechs like wolverines in the face for daring not to be opimal.

[Gas Guzzler]

Raasul, on 09 February 2017 - 08:20 AM, said:

The one way to fix it is by not having to unlock useless skill nodes to hit your target i.e. not have to waste skill points to get to the ones you want. A linear skill tree would solve all of our problems.

The problem is if they do this, we will have less skill points to use.

Snazzy Dragon, on 09 February 2017 - 08:22 AM, said:

It's really an issue of buffing mechs like the kodiak and mx90 that already boat while punching mechs like wolverines in the face for daring not to be opimal.

Explain the Wolverine build that really misses out by not being able to skill out all its weapons, please, I want to understand where you are coming from. Because I can think of a laser heavy version, a missile heavy version, and a ballistic heavy version.

Regarding those two assaults, they both have two weapon groups to skill up, unless they alter their loadout to be less optimal. But, I do think the Clan ppc velocity nodes and the Clan uac jam chance nodes need a nerf.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 09 February 2017 - 08:28 AM.

[MechaBattler]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 February 2017 - 08:05 AM, said:

You mean like how the existing module system doesnt support boating? Oh wait, it does.

It does, but doesn't get a disproportionate benefit to other facets of the mech. The module system could only effect your weapons. The skill system as it is now allows boaters to effect other traits of their mech. Considering people want to be able to get all of the good points, I'm not surprised to see someone in favor of leaving as is.

[AngrySpartan]

You've been asking for a build? Brawler Archer 5S (4E, 5M) and Archer 5W (9M). Med lasors&SRMs vs. Pure SRMs.

5S is already overshadowed by 5W on live servers, it's almost obsolete build if you want to brawl. To make it work you'll need that heatgen nodes. Same goes for most of the E+M brawling builds or B+E midrange, etc, etc.
They already worse than pure boats most of the time. And any pure Boat will have an extra 10-12 nodes to spend into mobility or operations or JJ, etc.

That's kinda obvious that new skill tree increase that gap even further. It's hard to judge if it is substantial, but there are many ways to fix it.

[Gas Guzzler]

MechaBattler, on 09 February 2017 - 08:34 AM, said:

It does, but doesn't get a disproportionate benefit to other facets of the mech. The module system could only effect your weapons. The skill system as it is now allows boaters to effect other traits of their mech. Considering people want to be able to get all of the good points, I'm not surprised to see someone in favor of leaving as is.

Well.. you could use your extra module slot for a 3rd weapon module, or get seismic/radar derp. I played around with plenty of 2-weapon mechs last night, and thought it was fine. I'll try a 3-4 weapon mech tonight. The thing is... once you get into 3-4 weapon types, some of those weapon types are going to be so weak, a marginal increase from the skills just isn't going to be worth it anyway, I would still probably choose agility or durability or infotech over those skills, even if I had the choice.

[Gas Guzzler]

AngrySpartan, on 09 February 2017 - 08:53 AM, said:

You've been asking for a build? Brawler Archer 5S (4E, 5M) and Archer 5W (9M). Med lasors&SRMs vs. Pure SRMs.

5S is already overshadowed by 5W on live servers, it's almost obsolete build if you want to brawl. To make it work you'll need that heatgen nodes. Same goes for most of the E+M brawling builds or B+E midrange, etc, etc.
They already worse than pure boats most of the time. And any pure Boat will have an extra 10-12 nodes to spend into mobility or operations or JJ, etc.

That's kinda obvious that new skill tree increase that gap even further. It's hard to judge if it is substantial, but there are many ways to fix it.

Well in the old system you could throw in SRM range and SRM cooldown on the 5W, but for the 5S you had to choose range/cooldown for lasers or SRMs.

Basically, you are looking at what 5 SRM6 w/art and 4 MLs? I would personally do ML duration only and max the SRM tree, along with durability, lower agility, and most of operations (for heat containment and heat dissipation mainly). Fill in any extras on the ML tree.

For the 5W, you save a handful of skill points on the ML duration, which you could put into infotech and MAYBE get Seismic 1. Frankly, it seems like a marginal improvement, and neither mech is actually game changing. If PGI sees the -5S is underperforming they can just buff its quirks a little bit.

[MechaBattler]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 February 2017 - 08:55 AM, said:

Well.. you could use your extra module slot for a 3rd weapon module, or get seismic/radar derp. I played around with plenty of 2-weapon mechs last night, and thought it was fine. I'll try a 3-4 weapon mech tonight. The thing is... once you get into 3-4 weapon types, some of those weapon types are going to be so weak, a marginal increase from the skills just isn't going to be worth it anyway, I would still probably choose agility or durability or infotech over those skills, even if I had the choice.

Multiple weapons being weaker is all the more reason for a change in the system. Just because the module system promoted it doesn't mean this one should too. What's the disadvantage to changing it? Boaters don't get to have the extra points to play with? That really doesn't make me want to see it stay this way.