62 replies to this topic

[Lukoi Banacek]

The most optimal builds arent jack of all trades under the current system either, not sure where yer getting that from.

[Natred]

Orrrrrrrrr how about this.

After you pay the exp and cbill cost for a node, you can equip and unequip as you please. Also you can have multiple skill tree setups saved similar to how league of legends mastery system works. Super easy save and load multiple skill tree setups for that given mech. Saved locally on each computer to save your server space. Or saved on the server so we dont have to respec everytime we get a new computer or play on a different one.

This would honestly be the set up for old and new players . Cbills spent as a investment instead of hurting people who want to experiment. Honestly without all the experimenting with builds and such as i have done so far. I would not be as good..

Edited by Natred, 09 February 2017 - 02:56 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Someone mentioned that earlier or another thread but it would make for a reasonable compromise. That way, when you respec, you are only paying for the "new nodes" in hour build, which will allow for players to still tinker, experiment and theorycraft like they anjoy now without a huge penalty.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Btw....I am a fan of the concept overall, just not at these price points, the scattered node method or the overall performance hit that every mech takes. If PGI addresses those points quickly, folks can get into iterative refinements easily enough and without alot of undue angst.

[Mister Blastman]

I think I'm done with this game if PGI doesn't make it 1:1.

ALL my past effort should be reflected in this new version. If it is not, why bother? I'm not starting over, or even half over. The c-bill cost for all of this is nonsense.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Mister Blastman, on 09 February 2017 - 03:20 PM, said:

I think I'm done with this game if PGI doesn't make it 1:1.

ALL my past effort should be reflected in this new version. If it is not, why bother? I'm not starting over, or even half over. The c-bill cost for all of this is nonsense.

Concur.

[Dralith]

The PTS Skill Tree system is complete nonsense in its current state.
Veteran players with a great amount of Mechs are punished for their dedication
to the game.
I for example own 205 Mechs. All mastered. On PTS an (oldschool mastered) Mech
gets about 57.250 HXP. This equals 38 SP. To spend these 38 SP I will need 3.8 million C-Bills -
just to get the Mech back to its current (oldschool mastered) state.Sure, I can spend those 38 SP
to develop the Mech in a more specialized direction - but we keep it basic for now.
So I need 3.8 million C-Bills to get it back to its current state and to get the benefits of Modules
I will have to spend even more C-Bills per Mech. I own about 50 oldschool Modules (I switch
them between Mechs and I know of many people who have 100+ Mechs but only 10-12 Modules),
so I will get a refund of 50 * 6 millions = 300 million C-Bills. Not too bad.....BUT : To re-master
all my 205 Mechs I will need 205 * 3.8 million = 779 million C-Bills....and this EXCLUDES getting
back the Module effects/benefits. Even with the refund this mounts up to a whopping bill of 479 million C-Bills
- just to get them back into the current oldschool state EXCLUDING the benefits of the 50 Modules.
Let's say I do a normal match (no premium time) and I get 150.000 C-Bills per game....this means I would
have to do roughly 3200 matches to get the C-Bills.

One word : Insane.

[Flying Blind]

Natred, on 09 February 2017 - 02:45 PM, said:

Orrrrrrrrr how about this.

After you pay the exp and cbill cost for a node, you can equip and unequip as you please. Also you can have multiple skill tree setups saved similar to how league of legends mastery system works. Super easy save and load multiple skill tree setups for that given mech. Saved locally on each computer to save your server space. Or saved on the server so we dont have to respec everytime we get a new computer or play on a different one.

This would honestly be the set up for old and new players . Cbills spent as a investment instead of hurting people who want to experiment. Honestly without all the experimenting with builds and such as i have done so far. I would not be as good..

I like this idea. I can buy them all but I can only equip so many. Yes that would be good

I still think it costs too much for New players though. Unless rewards are significantly increased

[Lukoi Banacek]

Dralith, on 09 February 2017 - 04:10 PM, said:

The PTS Skill Tree system is complete nonsense in its current state.
Veteran players with a great amount of Mechs are punished for their dedication
to the game.
I for example own 205 Mechs. All mastered. On PTS an (oldschool mastered) Mech
gets about 57.250 HXP. This equals 38 SP. To spend these 38 SP I will need 3.8 million C-Bills -
just to get the Mech back to its current (oldschool mastered) state.Sure, I can spend those 38 SP
to develop the Mech in a more specialized direction - but we keep it basic for now.
So I need 3.8 million C-Bills to get it back to its current state and to get the benefits of Modules
I will have to spend even more C-Bills per Mech. I own about 50 oldschool Modules (I switch
them between Mechs and I know of many people who have 100+ Mechs but only 10-12 Modules),
so I will get a refund of 50 * 6 millions = 300 million C-Bills. Not too bad.....BUT : To re-master
all my 205 Mechs I will need 205 * 3.8 million = 779 million C-Bills....and this EXCLUDES getting
back the Module effects/benefits. Even with the refund this mounts up to a whopping bill of 479 million C-Bills
- just to get them back into the current oldschool state EXCLUDING the benefits of the 50 Modules.
Let's say I do a normal match (no premium time) and I get 150.000 C-Bills per game....this means I would
have to do roughly 3200 matches to get the C-Bills.

One word : Insane.

It definitely comes across as a punishment and its certainly not going to feel good for new players who now cannot at least swap modules while they grind up more cash. Less cash for mechlabbing, more time spent driving less than optimal mechs (and therefore fighting at a conparative disadvantage for longer) etc. Not good for retaining new or more casual players.

And there isnt even an avenue to swap cash for time for this that is intuitive (monetization) or reasonable in price. Its not well implemented at these price points.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Flying Blind, on 09 February 2017 - 04:14 PM, said:

I still think it costs too much for New players though. Unless rewards are significantly increased

QTF.

Edited by Lukoi Banacek, 09 February 2017 - 05:40 PM.

[50 50]

Under the current system we have 13 skills in the mech tree.
We might have 2 mech modules which tend to be one off skills, then 2 weapon module skills which level up.
If that's all broken up so each skill has 5 levels is that the equivalent of 85 skill nodes?

It's a little hard to quantify the modules, but for the mech skill tree alone lets say it's the equivalent of 65 skill nodes. (13 skills * 5 levels)
There isn't a pin point skill any more and no fast firing or extra module skill.
There are 25 nodes in the upper mobility tree, but 10 of those are new.
20 in the lower mobility tree which match all of the old skills.
22 in Operations but there are 7 there that relate to modules.

That gives us 50 nodes that can be directly matched to the existing mech tree.
We should consider that in the new system, taking up 50 nodes is the equivalent of what we could do before.
XP wise, that's 75,000xp. I believe that for each individual mech we currently have mastered we will get around 56,000xp refunded so it's pretty close. Between GXP and Historic XP from each mech variant it's going to be pretty close.

The other skills were pilot skills and these have been moved to the individual mech variants so it's really that part that is making the significant difference. But to look at that individually, is it about 3500xp to max out a single weapon skill under the current system? 6000 under the new skill tree but also across multiple mechs. Historical XP and General XP may cover that to some degree but it's really the change that the pilot skills have become part of the mech skills that is now looking like we have a massive deficit.

Looking at this from the modules, we only skilled up the modules once but may have bought duplicates.
Effectively this will mean we can re-module some of our mechs, most likely the ones we use and enjoy the most. The good news is that we will be able to re-module at a fraction of the c-bill cost, it's the XP where we are going to fall short. However, I would suspect that we all have mechs that we simply don't use much if at all any more. If we can skill up those 50 nodes on them, then all they are missing is the 'module effects'. Good opportunity to tinker with the builds before allocating more skills.

[Lukoi Banacek]

50 50, on 09 February 2017 - 07:04 PM, said:

Looking at this from the modules, we only skilled up the modules once but may have bought duplicates.
Effectively this will mean we can re-module some of our mechs, most likely the ones we use and enjoy the most. The good news is that we will be able to re-module at a fraction of the c-bill cost, it's the XP where we are going to fall short. However, I would suspect that we all have mechs that we simply don't use much if at all any more. If we can skill up those 50 nodes on them, then all they are missing is the 'module effects'. Good opportunity to tinker with the builds before allocating more skills.

You will fall short on the c-bills more than likely if you have more than a handful of mechs to master. 9.1 million per mech to master.....on top of hte mechlabbing costs to build it. Folks have already mathed this out.

[Dralith]

In my case I would need 1.87 BILLION C-Bills to get all my Mechs fully mastered
with the new system. If I earn 150.000 C-Bills per game I would need to play
12467 matches. Lets say I do 10 games a day.....would take nearly 3.5 years of
grind

[Lukoi Banacek]

Dralith, on 09 February 2017 - 07:57 PM, said:

In my case I would need 1.87 BILLION C-Bills to get all my Mechs fully mastered
with the new system. If I earn 150.000 C-Bills per game I would need to play
12467 matches. Lets say I do 10 games a day.....would take nearly 3.5 years of
grind

Yea, that's entirely too much, agreed.

[Solkar]

To the people with 200+ mechs...

Some of you claim they "play them all", but if you played each one just once a month in an approximately 10 minute match (10 minutes from the time you queue to the time you have selected your next mech and are ready to queue for the next match) it would take just over an hour, every day of the month to play each mech once!

Odds are very very higher that you only REALLY play 10-30 of your mechs regularly, maybe another 20-30 of them occasionally, and the rest were played to get them mastered but now mostly collect virtual dust... you can easily master the regular and the occasional ones in the new system with what you spent mastering 200 before.

The ones that collect dust... let them sit until you are rich again and the completionist in you wins out over the logical part of you. You will still have more mastered mechs than the common player. You will still have more experience and presumably pilot skills than the common player. Therefore you will still beat the common player in most matches.

I personally do not care if mechs I rarely use are mastered. I have well over 3000 matches played (I know that is nothing compared to some players)... but it is enough to know that I will never play ALL my mechs equally, and I doubt anyone does despite their cries to the contrary.

[K O Z A K]

Solkar, on 09 February 2017 - 08:42 PM, said:

To the people with 200+ mechs...

Some of you claim they "play them all", but if you played each one just once a month in an approximately 10 minute match (10 minutes from the time you queue to the time you have selected your next mech and are ready to queue for the next match) it would take just over an hour, every day of the month to play each mech once!

Odds are very very higher that you only REALLY play 10-30 of your mechs regularly, maybe another 20-30 of them occasionally, and the rest were played to get them mastered but now mostly collect virtual dust... you can easily master the regular and the occasional ones in the new system with what you spent mastering 200 before.

The ones that collect dust... let them sit until you are rich again and the completionist in you wins out over the logical part of you. You will still have more mastered mechs than the common player. You will still have more experience and presumably pilot skills than the common player. Therefore you will still beat the common player in most matches.

I personally do not care if mechs I rarely use are mastered. I have well over 3000 matches played (I know that is nothing compared to some players)... but it is enough to know that I will never play ALL my mechs equally, and I doubt anyone does despite their cries to the contrary.

That's not the point. Personally I never buy mech packs (only use real $ for bays, paint and horns) because of this exact reason, they keep changing the value of mechs. But this has gone a little too far, it's like ford showing up at your garage one day and removing a few cylinders from your mustang saying oh it's fine you drive the subaru most days anyways.

[Ralatar]

I'll do you one better on that analogy. Not only removing a few cylinders but all mod's you've done and your not only told you have the Subaru to drive but if you want you mustang back in it's original condition you must pay half the value of your PAID off car.

If I've mastered 100+ mechs I've put in the time, blood, sweat, tears and at times RL money to get there, only to be told I'll be able to KEEP half or less of my mechs at 'top of the line' levels after all that work.

If I only play some of them once a year so what....I've EARNED that right, paid for it already. I have to pay for it again...?
**** you.

I do think PGI is trying to head in the right direction but if this goes through without all xp totals (basic, elite, mastery skills + xp currently on the mech) grandfathered in for EACH mech at a % of 91SP max then PGI is invalidating all the YEARS of work and money we put into supporting this game. This isn't about 'but do you really use all of them' it's about putting in years of time, effort and having it invalidated.

I'm sorry but if I have maxed out mastery on mechs in the old system they should be mastered in the new.

Edited by Ralatar, 09 February 2017 - 10:45 PM.

[50 50]

Lukoi Banacek, on 09 February 2017 - 07:26 PM, said:

You will fall short on the c-bills more than likely if you have more than a handful of mechs to master. 9.1 million per mech to master.....on top of hte mechlabbing costs to build it. Folks have already mathed this out.

I'm only talking about 'mastering' at 50 nodes (5,000,000 c-bills) just based on what is purely in the mech tree at the moment.
Still a good chunk of cash but given a radar deprevation module is 6 mil, plus what ever other modules we might have I'm thinking I should be able to get pretty close to setting this level on most if not all my mechs.

I'm also thinking that if there is a tech change coming in a few months with potentially more tree options, it might be wiser to not worry too much about any weapon skills at the moment except for mechs that I really won't be changing, particularly on mechs I don't use heavily.

[Ralatar]

They would/should offer free respec's on any major changes. Like new tech.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Solkar, on 09 February 2017 - 08:42 PM, said:

To the people with 200+ mechs...

Some of you claim they "play them all", but if you played each one just once a month in an approximately 10 minute match (10 minutes from the time you queue to the time you have selected your next mech and are ready to queue for the next match) it would take just over an hour, every day of the month to play each mech once!

Odds are very very higher that you only REALLY play 10-30 of your mechs regularly, maybe another 20-30 of them occasionally, and the rest were played to get them mastered but now mostly collect virtual dust... you can easily master the regular and the occasional ones in the new system with what you spent mastering 200 before.

The ones that collect dust... let them sit until you are rich again and the completionist in you wins out over the logical part of you. You will still have more mastered mechs than the common player. You will still have more experience and presumably pilot skills than the common player. Therefore you will still beat the common player in most matches.

I personally do not care if mechs I rarely use are mastered. I have well over 3000 matches played (I know that is nothing compared to some players)... but it is enough to know that I will never play ALL my mechs equally, and I doubt anyone does despite their cries to the contrary.

You dont care but many of us do. I have 14k matches played. By not grandfathering the mechs I chose to master, if I want to use them, thats forcing me to repeat the grind. As PGI constantly tweaks balance, mechs go in and out of favor, so what is optimal today, might be less so tomorrow, but could very well make a comeback next week. Some of these mechs were frankly, less than enjoyabke to master, but all of that is to he invalidated under the new system. To hell with that.

It doesnt bother you to have mastered mechs collect dust and revert to pre mastered state, well good for you. You dont speak for me or most of here tho. Most people do not appreckate changes to systems that invalidate the progress theyve made on something and its a game development misstep on PGI's part of they do so. Its simply not good business at all.