63 replies to this topic

[TLBFestus]

Yup.

There.

I said it. I'm pleasantly surprised by the initial product PGI has developed.

Sure, it may cost a small fortune in c-Bills to tweak your mechs now, and you may have to travel through nodes that have no conceivable use to your particular mech or it's load out, not to mention the couple of million c-bills or (approx) 1000 MC to re-spec if you make a mistake or want to use a different load out, but if you really look at it, it's as comfortable as an old shoe.

We used to have to grind out and master 3 mechs, and PGI needed to (over)compensate for the loss of those other 2 mech XP/c-bill sinks. They did it and surely you can't keep a straight face if you try to say that you never saw that coming. Sure it was heavy handed but it was TOTALLY in keeping with the usual way things go around here, so I barely groaned because it was so familiar.

Sure you need to go through nodes like "arm pitch/yaw" that your mech might have ZERO use for, but COME ON PEOPLE......we had PINPOINT for how long and that was useless the whole time!
Another comfortable sigh of relief.......

Keep in mind, it's just the first PTS version. I'm sure that it will get extensively reviewed and modified with the same level of efficiency that we've all come to know and love.

Since it's a skill TREE now, I would like to propose that we stop with the term "PAUL ECONOMY" as it's been rendered obsolete. Instead we need a new phrase to reflect it's new nature, so I humbly propose a new name;

"The Paul Agronomy"

Edited by TLBFestus, 09 February 2017 - 10:58 PM.

[NighthawK1337]

I'm pleasantly surprised too that it's not a complete trainwreck. Probably just 2 to 3 train cars got derailed.
Namely the Cbill cost, and mandatory skills.

Edited by NighthawK1337, 09 February 2017 - 11:33 PM.

[RestosIII]

Unlike something like.... ED, I'm actually hoping they find a way to make this one work. I just keep getting stuck on the astronomical costs. Fix that, and I'll be able to focus on the less obvious touch ups it will need.

[Appogee]

TLBFestus, on 09 February 2017 - 10:54 PM, said:

Keep in mind, it's just the first PTS version. I'm sure that it will get extensively reviewed and modified with the same level of efficiency that we've all come to know and love.

It's supposed to go live on the 21st, isn't it? But I suspect they will push it back due to player concerns, and then modify some values to be able to say that they 'addressed concerns'.

While the new system has some merits, the downsides will dwarf the advantages:

* The grind is tripled. 3X more XP plus 9.1M extra CBills to Master any future Mech. The "refunds" on prior Mechs/Module XP won't make help Master new Mechs.

* While grinding, we won't be building up CBills to buy future Mechs. Our earnings will be spent on the Mechs we're currently leveling.

* Time leveling sub-optimal Mechs against Mastered Mechs is worsened.

* Respec costs discourage build diversity and experimentation, a key attraction of Mechwarrior.

* Incents boating single weapons. Not enough unlocks to optimise multiple weapons.

* Historical XP on uncompetitive Mechs is worthless. I won't even try to earn the 136,000 XP and 9.1M CBills needed to level uncompetitive variants.

* Forces skills you don't want, to get to the ones you do want.

* Further widens the gap between new and experienced players.

* The 91 unlocks don't deliver the same level of optimisation as the current system.

I don't believe the few upsides justify these many downsides. And as a +$2K investor in the game, I believe PGI are cutting off their own revenue stream (Mech Packs) for a new one (respeccing) that isn't going to be anywhere near sufficient to keep the game afloat.

Edited by Appogee, 10 February 2017 - 01:07 AM.

[NeoCodex]

More then astronomical costs I'm disappointed in xp requirements. Some of the mechs I have mastered atm have only about 60-80k legacy xp out of 135k needed for all 91 SP. That's like almost double of the old mastery. If they were mastered before, why do they only get half of the SP tree now?

[NighthawK1337]

NeoCodex, on 09 February 2017 - 11:51 PM, said:

More then astronomical costs I'm disappointed in xp requirements. Some of the mechs I have mastered atm have only about 60-80k legacy xp out of 135k needed for all 91 SP. That's like almost double of the old mastery. If they were mastered before, why do they only get half of the SP tree now?

Their reasoning was you don't have to buy 3 of the same mechs anymore.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

NighthawK1337, on 09 February 2017 - 11:52 PM, said:

Their reasoning was you don't have to buy 3 of the same mechs anymore.

But I Mastered all the variants of the Chassis... so that is a stupid premise, I liked buying and mastering and then selling to buy new ones. I was the overwhelming percentage of my desire to play the game... Got To Master Them All!!! I was so close, that is the $hittiest part to me was how close I was to accomplishing that.

Now I have 1/3 of the way finished Mechs and no Gold flags... sad times cause PGI moved the goal posts on me.

[Baba_Yaga]

your one of the few! Most hate as well as I do!

[Appogee]

Kudos to PGI for reassuring us at MechCon that the huge unlock values they demod were "just placeholders" ... and then increasing those values even further before PTS.

PGI: putting the "con" in MechCon.

If we're lucky, they might reduce the XP values per unlock back to 1000 - which was the "placeholder value".

PGI: bringing the old pea-and-thimble trick to game design.

Edited by Appogee, 10 February 2017 - 01:18 AM.

[Lupis Volk]

Appogee, on 10 February 2017 - 01:14 AM, said:

Kudos to PGI for reassuring us at MechCon that the huge unlock values they demod were "just placeholders" ... and then increasing those values even further before PTS.

PGI: putting the "con" in MechCon.

If we're lucky, they might reduce the XP values per unlock back to 1000 - which was the "placeholder value".

PGI: bringing the old pea-and-thimble trick to game design.

Complains about cost, forgets that fact that it's cheaper than what an IS or even a Clan player has to do with the current system.

At this point you can all stop with your thin veils and just come out and say you hate change and PGI.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 10 February 2017 - 01:32 AM.

[Appogee]

Lupis Volk, on 10 February 2017 - 01:32 AM, said:

Complains about cost, forgets that fact that it's cheaper than what an IS or even a Clan player has to do with the current system.

How does the 136,500 XP needed to Master a single Mech variant under the new system, seem cheaper to you than the 57,250 XP needed under the current system?

Or cheaper even than the 89,250 XP needed under the current system, if you want to add on top the one-off XP costs of unlocking two pilot and two weapon modules, even though they would benefit all Mechs under the current system?

How does spending 7,500 to unlock 5 levels of Kinetic Burst under the new system, seem cheaper to you than the single unlock of 1,500 XP required under the current system?

Lupis Volk, on 10 February 2017 - 01:32 AM, said:

At this point you can all stop with your thin veils and just come out and say you hate change and PGI.

At this point you might want to stop embarrassing yourself and just come out and say you failed junior level maths, and that you enjoy being PGI's gimp.

Edited by Appogee, 10 February 2017 - 01:52 AM.

[kapusta11]

NeoCodex, on 09 February 2017 - 11:51 PM, said:

More then astronomical costs I'm disappointed in xp requirements. Some of the mechs I have mastered atm have only about 60-80k legacy xp out of 135k needed for all 91 SP. That's like almost double of the old mastery. If they were mastered before, why do they only get half of the SP tree now?

50 skill ponits will give you the same bonuses old skill tree used to provide. What is considered to be "mastered" mech under new system is not the same thing as mastered mech now.

[Lupis Volk]

Appogee, on 10 February 2017 - 01:38 AM, said:

[/i]
Which part of the 135,500 XP needed to Master a Mech under the new system, seems cheaper to you than the 57,250 XP needed under the current system?

So your going to ignore one half of the cost. XP is only half the cost.

Appogee, on 10 February 2017 - 01:38 AM, said:

[/i]
At this point you can stop embarrassing yourself and just come out and say you failed junior level maths, and you enjoy being PGI's Gimp.

Probably coming up: your opportunity to buy a single Mech for $10 instead of 3 for $20. (And you will think that's cheaper too, right?)

Oooh boy i've triggered you hard, sorry for not following the sheeple bandwagon and hating PGI and change, forgive me on forum merc warrior of clan Smoke Kitteh. It appears that i'm not jaded enough for your calibre.

[DovisKhan]

Al in all - yes I'm also very pleased, it needs tweaks, maybe, but it's really fun as an addition.


However - Trial mechs should all receive max skill points, because otherwise a new player in a trial mech is hopelessly outmatched, much more so than before


For example a full skilled Orion has 190+ CT hp and with 4 maxed ASRM6 it can land them all on your CT, it's actually neat, a crappy mech like that gets to live again

[Appogee]

Lupis Volk, on 10 February 2017 - 01:46 AM, said:

So your going to ignore one half of the cost. XP is only half the cost.

There is zero CBill cost to Master a Mech under the current system. But you can spend up to a maximum of 12M CBills once to buy four Modules which you can then re-use across all your Mechs.

The new system introduces a mandatory 9M CBill charge to Master every Mech. No re-use. A player that has Mastered, say, 10 Mechs will have spent 90M CBills to do so under the new system. Taking into account re-use of Modules, they would probably have spent only 60M CBills - and that number is generous, not conservative - under the current system.

Again, please math better before you criticise others' conclusions.

Lupis Volk, on 10 February 2017 - 01:46 AM, said:

Oooh boy i've triggered you hard, sorry for not following the sheeple bandwagon and hating PGI and change...

You're right. Idiots who criticise me as 'hating change' on the basis of their own ignorance of math, while encouraging PGI to shaft players harder, do irritate me.

But I realise I should be thankful to you. It's people like you who may actually just keep the game financially viable under the new system.

You'll be spending CBills leveling, buying MC to perform respecs, and when you find you don't have any CBills saved up to buy your next Mech, you'll probably jump at the opportunity to buy a single Mech for the new bargain price of $10 each. Because you will think that's better value than 3 for $20, won't you.

So please, continue to rail against those of us who can use a calculator, and who dispassionately see this change for what it is - a significant increase in grind and decrease in available earnings. By all means, argue against the facts we lay out by calling us 'haters' and 'against change' and 'forum warriors'.

That last charge is particularly ironic, given you're the one whose post was nothing more than an unfounded personal attack, and also factually incorrect.

Edited by Appogee, 10 February 2017 - 02:33 AM.

[tokumboh]

Lupis Volk, on 10 February 2017 - 01:46 AM, said:

So your going to ignore one half of the cost. XP is only half the cost.


Oooh boy i've triggered you hard, sorry for not following the sheeple bandwagon and hating PGI and change, forgive me on forum merc warrior of clan Smoke Kitteh. It appears that i'm not jaded enough for your calibre.

Whhooooo everyone

Firstly I would like to say I think the skill tree is a step in the right direction, I am not sure we needed the skill tree to do this but hell we are where we are.

The game is heavily mech purchasing centric., so much so that I think everything else suffers, games mode are pretty poor, maps are not the greatest and FW is just not doing it for many people

The skill tree for me has done two things it has increased the TTK, (just check the cooldown values your mech has now, and the armour buffs you can have) it has made brawling fun again and it has made people think about their mechs in a new light.

The negative part is that has assumed that people took 3 mechs to build one of them which is just not true in many instances. I accept there are some chassis which only have one good mech but there are lots which actually have three good mechs and for example most of my mechs are mastered and indeed even I as a **** pilot pretty much attempt to master all of my mechs and try playing them or I end up selling them. if I find that they are unplayable.

Now if I was only grinding for one mech of the three I would understand some of the argument here but I think the grind would be excessive and we should stop making the equivalence of the idea that 1 only buy 3 mechs to master just one of them.

[Lupis Volk]

Appogee, on 10 February 2017 - 02:06 AM, said:

There is zero CBill cost to Master a Mech under the current system. But you can spend up to a maximum of 12M CBills once to buy four Modules which you can then re-use across all your Mechs.

The new system introduces a mandatory 9M CBill charge to Master every Mech. No re-use. A player that has Mastered, say, 10 Mechs will have spent 90M CBills to do so under the new system. Taking into account re-use of Modules, they would probably have spent only 60M CBills - and that number is generous, not conservative - under the current system.

Again, please math better before you criticise others' conclusions.

There is a Cbill cost, you need 3 of a chassis to "master" it, that will cost more than 9mil to get all three and make them playable. Then many would say modules truly make it mastered, that in of itself can be around 9 mil for them.

The Cbill costs *minus the mech* would easily be over 9mil, the engine, Double heatsink, endo and fero would easily be 9mil in some mechs.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 10 February 2017 - 02:31 AM.

[Appogee]

Lupis Volk, on 10 February 2017 - 02:20 AM, said:

There is a Cbill cost, you need 3 of a chassis to "master" it, that will cost more than 9mil to get all three and make them playable. Then many would say modules truly make it mastered, that in of itself can be around 9 mil for them. The Cbill costs *minus the mech* would easily be over 9mil, the engine, Double heatsink, endo and fero would easily be 9mil in some mechs.

I see you're still not using math. Allow me to assist you.

Let's look at a player who wants to Master a relatively modest hangar of 9 Mastered Mechs. Let's compare the current system with the new system.

Under the Current System
CBill cost to buy 9 Mechs: 99M (using 11M CBills - a Storm Crow - as an average Mech price).
XP cost to Master 9 Mechs: 515,250 XP
CBill cost to buy, say, 4 of the most expensive reusable Mech Modules: 24M
CBill cost to buy, say, 8 reusable Weapon Modules: 24M
XP cost to unlock 12 Pilot Skills for the 12 Modules: 42,000 XP

Total CBills: 147M
Total XP: 557,250

Under the New System
CBill cost to buy 9 Mechs: 99M (using 11M CBills as an average price).
XP cost to Master 9 Mechs: 1,228,500 XP
CBill cost to Master 9 Mechs: 81.9M

Total CBills: 180.9M
Total XP: 1,228,500

Conclusion:
The new system requires 23% more CBills and 220% more XP.
And that's after a generous comparison.
In fact, the new system is even worse with the more Mechs you Master, or if you select less expensive Mechs, or if you don't spend money upgrading the other two variants you'll never use under your current "set of three" etc.

Finally:
Now that I've laid out the math with you, do you still think your opening comment - "Complains about cost, forgets that fact that it's cheaper than what an IS or even a Clan player has to do with the current system. At this point you can all stop with your thin veils" - was because I "hate change and PGI"...?

Or do you think perhaps I studied and calculated the impact of the new system, took the time to share it with fellow players, and also, got justifiably concerned that PGI had actually further increased what they told us at MechCon were "placeholder values"?

Edited by Appogee, 10 February 2017 - 03:22 AM.

[Kotzi]

@Lupis
No you dont, if you just bought them to level your main, you just needed to basic them. That could be done without upgrading them what would have been a waste anyway. Only for the first of each weight class you had to master 3 at least. So any comp guy might win with the new system. If you collect, master and want to play all your mechs you are screwed with the new system.

Edited by Kotzi, 10 February 2017 - 03:05 AM.

[Khobai]

the fact is you shouldnt have to pay at all to respec

we didnt have to pay anything before we could just swap modules for free

you should only have to pay initially for skill points. after you buy them the first time you should be able to respec them for free whenever you want.

it makes zero sense to put customization behind a paywall when customization was this games only real draw. you dont take the biggest strength of your game and make it the least accessible feature... thats re tarded.

Edited by Khobai, 10 February 2017 - 03:04 AM.