60 replies to this topic

[Cementi]

Seriously people enough with the misinformation. 9.1 million is no where near as bad as you are all making it out to be. I will agree that respec costs are too high but that is not what I seem to be seeing thrown around as much. I also am not getting into the XP grind aspect as I have not sat down and figured that out yet. Again I suspect it is not as bad as people think it is.

Looking at it from the new player perspective under the old system if you wanted to master out one mech from each weight class you were looking at having to sell mechs to do it. That has to be considered into any price calculations you do for this. On top of that double heat sinks are not an option as well as engine upgrades for some mechs. No new player is going to grind out 8 of 12 mechs without gear that is 100% nessesary to have a chance to enjoy this game. I am also throwing endo steel and for the light ferro into the equation.

I chose IS mechs as many new players get pulled in by the lower cost. Eventually I plan on figuring this out from a clan perspective but I expect it to tell a similar tale.

So the old system I worked it out as follows:

Purchase and upgrade three Ravens. Reuse engines when possible. Sell all three chassis but not the gear.

Purchase and upgrade three Griffins. Reuse engines when possible. Sell two of them (kept the 2N).

Earn at least one mech bay from an event or getting one from Faction Play.

Purchase and upgrade three Cataphracts. Reuse engines when possible. Sell two of them (kept the 0XP).

Purchase and upgrade three Atlai. Reuse engines when possible. Sell two of them (kept the DDC).

Repurchase and upgrade the Raven 3L reusing the engine you did before.

Now at this point Ill explain that I picked these mechs for a couple reasons. One they are ok to good options but not really "meta" because new players often do not pick meta. However they will hear from alot of people that ECM is life. Not entirely true but not the worst advice to follow so I kept all ECM variants. On top of that the Griffin and Cataphracts can be played with their stock engines. Maybe not the most ideal but playable. I did upgrade the Ravens because you need to and I upgraded the Atlas engine because I feel its almost as needed.

The cost at this point counting mech resales is about 104 million. This is before you even consider modules. Once you have aquired all your mechs and theoreticly mastered them so that you can put modules in all the slots that pushes the price to 173 million.

The new system does not require you to buy 12 mechs. You can do all that with 4 mechs.

4 Mechs, thats it.

The cost of those 4 mechs that I chose to keep, with upgrades and even the entire cost of the skill tree is a whopping 78 million.

Almost 100 million cbills difference on top of the perks of not having to pilot something you hate and the ability to customize what you want.

Now if you think upgradeing every mech to make it not complete torture to play is excessive you could drop that 173 million to 149 million. Of course that would be a huge increase to the grind. Not sure many players would be up for that.

So please stop raging about how much more expensive the new system is because it simply is not. Even with respec costs being to high that sill leaves you with 71 to 95 million worth of respec costs before you could claim that the new system is more expensive.

Yes for those of us with 200+ mechs we are going to feel the pinch. However not as badly as people are claiming as we are getting all that ridiculous module fitting refunded to dump back into skill trees. Also most of us at that point do not play all of those mechs anyway. Sure we cannot swap modules but I, and alot of the people I play with got tired of module hunting long ago and just started fitting them on everything.

[gullven]

Thanks for the information cementi, i feel informed!

[MacClearly]

Skilling is going to be very expensive. That is no exaggeration. It will be like having to purchase modules for every mech instead of swapping them.

[Baulven]

In order for someone to join a combat zone with their first mech purchase and appropriate skills for a new player is significant. This is worse for the fact that all the things you need to make bad mechs good (things new players would not know about, or even if certain mechs are strictly terrible) and drains the new player experience. The more annoying the free to play game is, the more likely a person trying the game will not stick around.

It is setting another non trivial barrier to entry, which affects retention and expansion of the player base.

[Ruar]

So apparently the cost is fine as long as we only play a few mechs like you prefer. If you like playing multiple versions of a mech you are wrong and the added costs don't matter.

[Slambot]

I would need 2 BILLION more cbills than I will have after the refund (i will have 700M or so) Just to spend the exp I have already earned.

[Drebin Cormack]

Nope. It should be half of what it is. 4.5-6million max. C-bills are hard enough to get as it is (for us non whales). I don't need another c-bill sink. It costing c-bills to skill up your mech is ridiculous anyway, but 9.1 million is nuts. That doesn't even take into account the fee for respec.

As another on this forum pointed out: Assuming 100k c-bills average and 1500xp per match on average, that leaves you playing 91 matches in every mech you wish to master.

Not gonna happen. Too much grind and people will leave in droves, me included. I'm not spending 13 hours on every mech I wish to master.

Edited by Drebin Cormack, 11 February 2017 - 05:49 PM.

[Cato Phoenix]

I'm in agreement with less cost. 30-50% of the 100k (or having it be graduated) would allow a lot of people to get back to where they were before, and simultaneously makes achieving mastery significant. Paying 4.5 million for a mech with seismic, radar, and other boosts is totally cheap. Hell, as you mentioned, paying 9 million for one mech to get all that stuff is cheap.

But for people who didn't drop 10-20 million into each of their current mechs via modules, it will be limiting to what they can march up.

I think people crying this will kill new players are totally wrong. Someone new can probably build a decent stable of 4 varied mechs (not needing to have 3 slotted up as the same one) with a big head start, i.e. the cadet bonuses. That's one mastered or nearly closely mastered mech, and realistically at the beginning you'll have more money than XP anyways so you could spend it on mech #2 and buy skills as you earn XP.

[ingramli]

I dont agree with you (OP). I play like 15 games a week (casual player standard). i earn about 100,000 C-Bills a game. My average earnings is somewhere near 1.5M C-Bills a week, it took me ~ 6 weeks to master a mech under the new system. Under the old system, i do need to own 3 variants, but i can sell them after i finished the mastering, and i can also sweep the module to another mech with no cost associated. With the new system, i am not able to sweep module, and i need to pay a "tax" to respecing every time a disable upgrades and enables others which i already paid for that before! I dont even need to pay a C-Bill to unlock the master efficiency after i own 3 variants under the old system, no, this is not good, i am clearly worse off.

Edited by ingramli, 11 February 2017 - 06:26 PM.

[Cementi]

Do you really think it is the norm for people to have 200 plus mechbays and over 150 mechs? I do but I doubt the majority of people do. The point I was making is that the new system is no where near as bad as people are making out. Sure those of us with 150 mechs are gonna have it a bit rough but do you honestly play all 150 regular enough to worry about needing them competitive? I know I don't. I have a core group of mechs. The others are mostly for goofing around and I upgrade them with modules when I feel like it. Swapping modules to those mechs for how little I played them was a waste of time. Fact is most of those mechs I would not have even bothered with if I did not have to buy 3 of the same chassis.

Slambot you claim that you will need 2 billion to master every mech. That means you claim to have 219+ mech which is fine. You say you are expecting a refund of about 770 million cbills. That means that currently you have about enough modules kicking around to have 51 mechs fully modded out. No where near your 219. Now if you are really concerned about having all 219 mechs of yours fully competitive at all times then you must play more module hunter than you do MWO. Now lets take that 770 million to the new system. Hmmm seems like you will get a refund that will allow you to fully mod out 84 mechs. On top of the extra 33 fully mastered and modded mechs you will be able to play mwo more than module hunter therefore earning more cbills. Oh and you know the mechs you do master out will have access to more modules than your current mechs would have been able to equip.

I am not saying the system is perfect. There are a number of things I would tweak, mostly in the mechanics but I am ok with the core concept. Respec costs are certainly too high as you have to pay to unplug and pay to replug them in so you are getting double taxed. However the core cost itself is no where near as bad as people are claiming and thats the part that bugs me.

[Kael Posavatz]

While the cost to level a mech is static, as a percentage it curves steeply whether you are looking at a light mech or an assault. Under the new system a locust may pay out six times its purchase price in nodes, but a Direwolf just over half. Under the old, the modules for a locust in-training cost could be ten times what the mech itself cost (1 mech module, 2 weapon modules), and a Direwolf ~2/3 its c-bill listing.

But there's more to it than that.

I've used Thunderbolts for my price-comparisons. They are a nice middle-of-the-road mech that feature prominently in many FW dropdecks, and are relatively popular for newer players.

Three thunderbolts (-5SS, -9S, -9SE) plus endo (all three) and double heatsinks (-5ss) requires ~21million c-bills (plus cost of weapons, engines, etc) and after you’ve elited them you have three mechs that are the solid underpinnings of a FW dropdeck. Not as good as they could be with modules, and there are certainly better options, but not an entire waste. This is the elite-level skill cost, no modules added.

Skill nodes to meet or better the live server skills, cost 5.3 million and can't actually be done (heat dissipation comes up short). But in the process of gaining those you also get a few skills that are quite a bit better (or didn't have before), so it more than balances out. Cost is about ~12 million per mech and each still has 38 nodes for armor and weapons (at the cost of another 3.8 million).

So, buying one mech under the new system is cheaper than buying three under the old model, but the costs of getting it to elite-equivalent have climbed sharply (~6million, outfitting costs, and time vs ~11.3 million, outfitting costs, and time) [Note: disparity with previous cited cost is endo/dhs are grouped into outfitting]. Lolcust is ~1.7million vs ~7million, Direwhale ~17.7 million vs ~23million (plus outfitting costs and time).

Past the elite-equivalent level you start getting into the area where modules came into play. Under the old system modules were a capital expense. Once you bought them they were yours to keep and move around as you saw fit. Going back to the Thuds, a common module configuration was RaderDerp, Seismic, 2x weps, at a cost of 54million c-bills. But then tonnage changed and you decide to swap one for a Grasshopper and…whatever. Modules come off the Thuds and on to the new mechs and, hey, you aren’t shelling out 54 million again (assuming, of course, that you manage to port over all of the modules which I doubt). If you move just radarderp and seismic and buy new weapon modules, you'll have knocked 36million off your purchase order. And you didn't need to wait until your mech was elite/mastered or whatever. If you bought a new mech you could put a seismic or radar derp you already owned right on it at no cost.

Or, to put it another way, a fully kitted out 4xThunderbolt dropdeck (which was a thing at one point) would cost ~99million for mechs, endo, heatsinks, and modules (plus cost of weapons and engines), under the old system and ~63million under the new (91 skill node unlocks). But if you wanted to change to a dropdeck with no thunderbolts you had a 54million c-bill investment under the old system that you could pull from to use with your revised dropdeck.


In the PTS that’s no longer the case. To those players with hundred of millions, or even billions of c-bills it might not matter much, to those scrapping by with a few dozen million c-bills who are suddenly experiencing a tonnage change in FW, or want to make a fairly substantial change to their dropdeck? That’s a rather different animal.

[Cementi]

ingramli, on 11 February 2017 - 06:25 PM, said:

I dont agree with you (OP). I play like 15 games a week (casual player standard). i earn about 100,000 C-Bills a game. My average earnings is somewhere near 1.5M C-Bills a week, it took me ~ 6 weeks to master a mech under the new system. Under the old system, i do need to own 3 variants, but i can sell them after i finished the mastering, and i can also sweep the module to another mech with no cost associated. With the new system, i am not able to sweep module, and i need to pay a "tax" to respecing every time a disable upgrades and enables others which i already paid for that before! I dont even need to pay a C-Bill to unlock the master efficiency after i own 3 variants under the old system, no, this is not good, i am clearly worse off.

See this is what baffles me.

Lets look at a fairly cheap mech say 3 million cbills. We wont even pay to upgrade the engine or structure but Im sorry double heat sinks are nessesary. Torture playing a mech with out them. That makes the cost 4.5 million each or a total of 13.5 million total. 9 weeks at your rate of play. Now add in 15 million worth of modules for a total of 28.5 million for what a total of 19 weeks at your rate of play.

Same mech under the new system. 4.5 plus 9 is 13.5 million so a total of 9 weeks. The difference being you now have a mech that has all the efficiencies and more modules than you could have even put on under the old system in 9 weeks. 9 weeks not 19. Please tell me again how this new system is worse for you?

*edit* Everyone seems to forget to add in the cost of 2 mechs that you do not need and for many do not pilot after they master the one they want.

Edited by Cementi, 11 February 2017 - 06:48 PM.

[feeWAIVER]

9 mill is like 9 FP matches to master it.
That sounds fine to me.

[ingramli]

Cementi, on 11 February 2017 - 06:41 PM, said:

See this is what baffles me.

Lets look at a fairly cheap mech say 3 million cbills. We wont even pay to upgrade the engine or structure but Im sorry double heat sinks are nessesary. Torture playing a mech with out them. That makes the cost 4.5 million each or a total of 13.5 million total. 9 weeks at your rate of play. Now add in 15 million worth of modules for a total of 28.5 million for what a total of 19 weeks at your rate of play.

Same mech under the new system. 4.5 plus 9 is 13.5 million so a total of 9 weeks. The difference being you now have a mech that has all the efficiencies and more modules than you could have even put on under the old system in 9 weeks. 9 weeks not 19. Please tell me again how this new system is worse for you?

*edit* Everyone seems to forget to add in the cost of 2 mechs that you do not need and for many do not pilot after they master the one they want.

No it is worse off. I got 3 mechs to work with after 9 weeks with the old system, with the new system, i only got only 1 mech in hand after 9 weeks, it is NOT the same.
In addition, i dont pay for module again in the old system, i just sweep it between my mechs when i use it.

Edited by ingramli, 11 February 2017 - 06:58 PM.

[Cementi]

I kinda see where you coming from Kael and maybe my perceptions are colored by the fact that competitive units do not allow you to change your drop deck very often and even when they do the choices are super limited. Even then they usually require you to have two or three fully moduled drop decks as you can not module swap when qued for a FP match (unless thats changed). That gets pricy fast. Kind of why Ill have nothing to do with them anymore as they kill the fun of the game.

Do not get be wrong. I would not mind seeing the cost less. However I do not want to see another system completely torpedoed by people raging and exagerating its pitfalls. Pitfalls that could be easily tweaked to make it work. Is it higher than I like. Eh kind of, the respec cost is more the issue than the initial cost and both can easily be adjusted. It is a test after all.

My concern is alot of people will blow things out of porportion and misrepresent things. Others will read that and not bother to look into it themselves. Then more rage posts and eventually instead of getting something added to the game PGI will pull the pin again and have wasted development time because alot of people responded with knee jerk reactions. That is the biggest stumbling block we have to getting new content. The MWO community is a spoiled toddler that has learned that mommy and daddy will not make them do anything they do not want if they scream loud enough. Sorry if I am tired of kraft dinner and hot dogs and I want something a bit more interesting.

feeWAIVER, on 11 February 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

9 mill is like 9 FP matches to master it.
That sounds fine to me.

Eh, see thats a bit of an exageration the other way. Thats 9 rofl stomp wins if your a good player however even still its probally more in the 15 range. Its not as far out of reach as people are claiming.

[Cementi]

ingramli, on 11 February 2017 - 06:57 PM, said:

No it is worse off. I got 3 mechs to work with after 9 weeks with the old system, with the new system, i only got only 1 mech in hand after 9 weeks, it is NOT the same.
In addition, i dont pay for module again in the old system, i just sweep it between my mechs when i use it.

If you count your first set of modules it did not take you 9 weeks it took you 19. With the new system you could have played two totally different mechs to mastery for the same price and had a far more interesting gaming experiance instead of playing the same thing with slight variations. Often times being forced to play terrible variants. Your relatively new but trust me there are a couple golden nuggets out there that to master you have to play steaming piles of you know what. You won't want to look at them again much less pilot them.

Also if you keep playing trust me, module hunter gets very very old and you will buy more than one set of modules to swap around.

[MechaBattler]

My problem is that for new players they're now stuck holding off getting skills because they need upgrades or equipment for their mech. Or weapons that aren't the stock build. Where as on live you can gain XP and unlock performance skills without being in competition with getting your equipment and upgrades.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Cementi, on 11 February 2017 - 07:01 PM, said:

I kinda see where you coming from Kael and maybe my perceptions are colored by the fact that competitive units do not allow you to change your drop deck very often and even when they do the choices are super limited. Even then they usually require you to have two or three fully moduled drop decks as you can not module swap when qued for a FP match (unless thats changed). That gets pricy fast. Kind of why Ill have nothing to do with them anymore as they kill the fun of the game.

Do not get be wrong. I would not mind seeing the cost less. However I do not want to see another system completely torpedoed by people raging and exagerating its pitfalls. Pitfalls that could be easily tweaked to make it work. Is it higher than I like. Eh kind of, the respec cost is more the issue than the initial cost and both can easily be adjusted. It is a test after all.

My concern is alot of people will blow things out of porportion and misrepresent things. Others will read that and not bother to look into it themselves. Then more rage posts and eventually instead of getting something added to the game PGI will pull the pin again and have wasted development time because alot of people responded with knee jerk reactions. That is the biggest stumbling block we have to getting new content. The MWO community is a spoiled toddler that has learned that mommy and daddy will not make them do anything they do not want if they scream loud enough. Sorry if I am tired of kraft dinner and hot dogs and I want something a bit more interesting.



Eh, see thats a bit of an exageration the other way. Thats 9 rofl stomp wins if your a good player however even still its probally more in the 15 range. Its not as far out of reach as people are claiming.

since the entire premise is "helping new players" then bringing up high level comp teams is facetious at best

[ingramli]

Cementi, on 11 February 2017 - 07:08 PM, said:

If you count your first set of modules it did not take you 9 weeks it took you 19. With the new system you could have played two totally different mechs to mastery for the same price and had a far more interesting gaming experiance instead of playing the same thing with slight variations. Often times being forced to play terrible variants. Your relatively new but trust me there are a couple golden nuggets out there that to master you have to play steaming piles of you know what. You won't want to look at them again much less pilot them.

Also if you keep playing trust me, module hunter gets very very old and you will buy more than one set of modules to swap around.

No, as a casual player, being "competitive" is not as important as having more mech collection and switch between it. In the old system, i bought a mech and even i dont own 3 variants to unlock the master, i can still get the basic efficiency for free, and i can put a radar dep/ Seismic Sensor, i am totally fine without mastering it in quick play. With the new system, no, you have to pay for pretty much everything.

If the system is released in Feb patch without changes, i guess i will forget about the skill tree AT ALL, just play around the equipment and weapons of the mechs, even i am inferior in competition.

Edited by ingramli, 11 February 2017 - 07:34 PM.

[Sjorpha]

You can't go around arguing as if basics and sell 2 of 3 variants is the norm this should be measure by. There are many mech chassis with 3 or more good variants and many people who master all 3.

The only reasonable comparison is mech to mech, 1 for 1. Not 1 to 3 like the apologists are trying to do. The truth is that the XP grind is trippled in the new system. Trippled.

Same with the cbill cost. You can't argue as if buying modules for all mechs is the norm and use that to claim the new system is cheaper, it's nonsense. At best you can assume that players with a lot of mechs has about a couple mastered dropdeck's worth of modules, so maybe 20 mech modules and 40 weapon modules or so for a player with around 100 mechs is reasonable to assume.

Edited by Sjorpha, 11 February 2017 - 07:41 PM.