150 replies to this topic

[Tarogato]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 February 2017 - 11:03 AM, said:

I will say, most of the people I'm aware of that Russ blocked tended to hover somewhere between Troll and Cyberstalker.

I'll just leave this here for posterity.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tarogato, on 13 February 2017 - 12:16 PM, said:

I'll just leave this here for posterity.

and I'll leave this....

Bishop Steiner, on 13 February 2017 - 11:16 AM, said:

note...I also said MOST. There are some I don't pretend to understand...whether they posted at a "bad time" and got caught in the fallout of ot he poster QQ and flamebait (Which I have to assume is what happened Cmdr Sunset Shimmer...which still is bunk if so), but also that a goodly number of trolls.... really seem to think they are acting totally within the boundaries of acceptable behavior... while clearly NOT. *coughMadcatmkIIcough*

[Sjorpha]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 February 2017 - 12:21 PM, said:

and I'll leave this....

Are you saying that applies to Fantastic Tuesday?

[Bishop Steiner]

Sjorpha, on 13 February 2017 - 02:00 PM, said:

Are you saying that applies to Fantastic Tuesday?

I don't know fantastic tuesday, nor the circumstances involved. Perhaps this time, you will also read the context of the statement that both you and Tarogato chose to overlook: (Hint it's the very first sentence of the post) note...I also said MOST.

I can only point you toward the water. What you choose to do with it from there, is up to you.

[SuomiWarder]

How would one pick "Not the trolls but the honest community contributers here?" ?

[Lostdragon]

SuomiWarder, on 13 February 2017 - 02:19 PM, said:

How would one pick "Not the trolls but the honest community contributers here?" ?

When PGI did the energy draw tests they actually had some great posts explaining the changes being made and the reasoning behind those changes as well as specific things they wanted people to test and give feedback about. I would have started with that then applied a little critical thinking to responses to get an idea of what people like and don't like as well as suggestions for improvements. It generally isn't that hard to figure out who is trolling and who is providing passionate feedback.

[WolvesX]

Tarogato, on 13 February 2017 - 09:21 AM, said:

Handing quirk balancing over to somebody that actually plays the game well, understands the present imbalances, and has experience with a very wide variety of mechs.

Please!

Edited by WolvesX, 13 February 2017 - 03:16 PM.

[Sjorpha]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 February 2017 - 02:12 PM, said:

I don't know fantastic tuesday, nor the circumstances involved. Perhaps this time, you will also read the context of the statement that both you and Tarogato chose to overlook: (Hint it's the very first sentence of the post) note...I also said MOST.

I can only point you toward the water. What you choose to do with it from there, is up to you.

You requoted that statement specifically in response to a video about Fantastic Tuesday being blocked, how does it make sense to do that and bold up + underline that part of the text to boot if you don't think it applies to him?

Plausible deniability setups notwithstanding, that post amounts to calling Fantastic Tuesday a troll.

Edited by Sjorpha, 13 February 2017 - 03:46 PM.

[MacClearly]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 February 2017 - 07:35 AM, said:

Oh this will go over well.

You KNOW one has to be an UberComp UltraTryhard to have ANY understanding of the game, and thus anything useful to contribute.

Even if the game that 99% of the playerbase plays is NOTHING like the game the Comp Teams play against each other... and balance in tier 5 is totally different than in tier 1. Or that a goodly number of Comp players are not inherently more "knowledgeable" than anyone else, but simply have really good reflexes and follow the leader well, belong to very disciplined teams and know how to copypasta MetaMechs.com. Oh, and the genuine metric shitton of bad ideas posted by players with a "1" under their names. (Mind you, there are several metric shittons of bad ideas from players without that "1", but that's to be expected, since among other things..players with those other numbers outnumber the "1" on at least a 20 to 1 ratio, if not more)

But ya know...aside from that.




This. PGI has always had a bad habit of putting too much weight on the thoughts of a select group of players... many of whom are more concerned with the competitive play, than the lore of the IP. And on the other extreme, the forums have quite a few players who are far too entrenched in the "but in TT it's done THIS WAY!" mentality.

What is needed is for Russ to listen to a broader cross section of players, from all ends of the spectrum.

You absolutely NEED the input from Competitive Players, because if something is broke, they are guaranteed to be abusing it. You get less reliable info on what is actually bad though, as in general, if it's not the bleeding edge, it's cast aside period, which makes it a lot less clear just what is how bad, and why. Far too much of the "if it isn't Optimal, then it's not Viable" mindset. Also, sometimes, I believe tehy can forget that while they may be the elite, they represent a minuscule percentage of the playerbase.

At the other end...you have the Potatoes. Now the Comps say they have nothing to add, and you can't balance based on the BADs. And there is truth to this. And yet... you can't ignore the Bads, either... because 1) there are more Bads, than Goods, and 2) most New Players, start as Bads, and if the NPE is too bad, then the New Player Retention goes to crap, and the community and game, stagnate and die. For example... in top tiers.. LRMs are BAD. Thing is, for a lot of New Players... LRMs are OP. So no matter hoe inconsequential the Competitive Scene may find LRMs to be... if they are wrecking the NPE, those players are unlikely to stick around long enough to "GitGud".

Not necessarily related to being Good, Bad or Ugly... you have the battle of Lore vs Competitive Balance. You have a number of people who are so entrenched in Lore, they cannot think straight when it comes to balance. And you have the other side, where these people may care nothing at all for the "fluff", and all that mattes is the FPS aspect. With a Storied IP, like Battletech, you need to walk the line between the two extremes. You NEED to be as true to lore as is possible. But you also have to be able and willing to bend lore, where the realities of being translated to a FPS videogame, come to loggerheads with Lore.

So, in short, while I am against any sort of player councils, and have no clue how effective Roundtables are.. I do find it troubling that Russ has focused most of his attention toward in the end the Comp Perspective in these Roundtables in the past. What is needed, is for Russ to really get input from all walks of the MWO Community. Well, that, and actually being willing to LISTEN, and not get upset whenever we as a community do not agree with something that PGI thinks is simply the Cat's Meow.

I don't necessarily like the way you frame some of what you say. Could just be a different personality thing and I know your opinion on that is that it is a 'me' problem so being who I am I try to consider that perhaps you have a point there.

You do make some really excellent points however. There are a lot of ways to be invested in the game outside of comp and being a part of a big unit. So far the round tables have been dominated with unit leaders and despite being in a unit myself and formally part of a big unit, I can see there being a lot of conflict there.

Being regularly engaged in the forums in my opinion shows investment and involvement in the MWO community. Think that there absolutely should be a few invited to the next round table at least so that it isn't just the interests of units being accounted for.

There probably should be a big round table without PGI within the community so the silly back and forth between the tryhards, pugtard, loretards, metatards becomes more of a gathering of fellow players sharing information and such...a guy can dream can't he?

[Bishop Steiner]

Sjorpha, on 13 February 2017 - 03:44 PM, said:

You requoted that statement specifically in response to a video about Fantastic Tuesday being blocked, how does it make sense to do that and bold up + underline that part of the text to boot if you don't think it applies to him?

Plausible deniability setups notwithstanding, that post amounts to calling Fantastic Tuesday a troll.

And so it begins. The usual selective reading, specifically to play the butthurt card. Bravo. Interpret it however you want, you obviously know me better than I do anyhow.

[Bishop Steiner]

MacClearly, on 13 February 2017 - 04:03 PM, said:

I don't necessarily like the way you frame some of what you say. Could just be a different personality thing and I know your opinion on that is that it is a 'me' problem so being who I am I try to consider that perhaps you have a point there.

You do make some really excellent points however. There are a lot of ways to be invested in the game outside of comp and being a part of a big unit. So far the round tables have been dominated with unit leaders and despite being in a unit myself and formally part of a big unit, I can see there being a lot of conflict there.

Being regularly engaged in the forums in my opinion shows investment and involvement in the MWO community. Think that there absolutely should be a few invited to the next round table at least so that it isn't just the interests of units being accounted for.

There probably should be a big round table without PGI within the community so the silly back and forth between the tryhards, pugtard, loretards, metatards becomes more of a gathering of fellow players sharing information and such...a guy can dream can't he?

In truth, what makes it a "you" thing, is simply that you don't have the context if a lot of my statements, to know why I phrase things the way I do. But even if you did, you may well disagree with it, which is your choice, as we all have our own perspectives. That said, for instance, in the way I somewhat sarcastically started the post.... It's the result of 4.5 years in this game and the forums, dealing with players claiming precisely what I said, that essentially if you are not a Comp player, you have no input of value, and often making the erroneous claim that playing for a Comp team mystically bestowed special insight and understanding.

Thus, my sarcasm. *Shrugs*

[pbiggz]

the battletech community has kind of always been small and fractious.

to be fair, it was hard to tell for that decade when there was basically no mechwarrior. We were all united by our hopes for a new game, but alot of people have very very different ideas of what that game should be.

Some people want TT numbers 3025 only IS pure tech with no weapon convergence and no mech lab. Some people just want exactly mechwarrior 2 mercs. Some people love the clans and want their vanilla weapon values. Some people love mechassault and just want arcade action. I disagree with some of these people but their views are more or less valid, they want the game they THINK will be fun.

Its pretty much impossible to make a mechwarrior game that will truly make everyone happy, especially now.

I can tell you that in my opinion the best option for a mechwarrior game is to take the narrative and flavour but build the tech and numbers completely from scratch. With a brand new base you could tackle the balance issues that have plagued the mechwarrior series for the past 20-25 years, no matter what timeline you choose to place yourself in, but i think some people would reject it on principal because it violates the TT bible.

[Tarogato]

Sjorpha, on 13 February 2017 - 03:44 PM, said:

You requoted that statement specifically in response to a video about Fantastic Tuesday being blocked, how does it make sense to do that and bold up + underline that part of the text to boot if you don't think it applies to him?
Plausible deniability setups notwithstanding, that post amounts to calling Fantastic Tuesday a troll.

Bishop Steiner, on 13 February 2017 - 04:25 PM, said:

And so it begins. The usual selective reading, specifically to play the butthurt card. Bravo. Interpret it however you want, you obviously know me better than I do anyhow.

+1 to Bishop here. I knew what he meant, and I posted that video anyways because it's a pretty amusing, and related. There was no implication that every or any person blocked by Russ exhibits troll-like behaviour, just that it's a recurring theme.

[Deathlike]

Tarogato, on 13 February 2017 - 04:57 PM, said:

+1 to Bishop here. I knew what he meant, and I posted that video anyways because it's a pretty amusing, and related. There was no implication that every or any person blocked by Russ exhibits troll-like behaviour, just that it's a recurring theme.

I liked the video though, because when you realize what had happened, it's too funny to be true... and yet it happened.

That's what TL;DR/DW gets you.

[MacClearly]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 February 2017 - 04:30 PM, said:

In truth, what makes it a "you" thing, is simply that you don't have the context if a lot of my statements, to know why I phrase things the way I do. But even if you did, you may well disagree with it, which is your choice, as we all have our own perspectives. That said, for instance, in the way I somewhat sarcastically started the post.... It's the result of 4.5 years in this game and the forums, dealing with players claiming precisely what I said, that essentially if you are not a Comp player, you have no input of value, and often making the erroneous claim that playing for a Comp team mystically bestowed special insight and understanding.

Thus, my sarcasm. *Shrugs*

Not sure if it is context. More different outlooks? Me being less experienced with lore and such? A quick example (although remember my original comment is in agreement with you I am only seeking to put our differences into context...from my perception that is).

You brought up an analogy that was actually something that was on my mind but chose to drop it instead. Funny enough we are on opposite sides of that too. The old 350 Chev debate. You mentioned people being agast about dropping them into Mustangs and Roadrunners (except for some fox bodies pretty rare to see either car with such and engine swap btw) People dropped them into many hot rods regardless of the chassis manufacturer because they simply worked. Not only worked but worked well and was the better option a lot of the time. People emotionally involved with their brand, had a particular outrage especially ford guys. The difference between this scenerio and MWO is that there was no real momentum or serious movement to make it impossible or so that people were inable to do what they wanted. Instead drag strips held ford nights and other restricted events for the purists...

It related back our conversation...argument to your saying (to paraphrase) that you would like MWO to respect the IP such as the Warhammer having PPC's in their arms. So I get that as a fan and someone invested in the franchise you of coarse don't want to have some elitist ideology thrown at you as a way to invalidate what you may have to say. Can't blame you. However, it can get those who don't care if Warhammers have their PPC's in their arms and want them up high where they work better a bit up tight when people say that there should be some restrictions on doing so. If you aren't a comp guy and just do quick play there is no reason you can't run ppc's in the arms while others put them in the chest or forgo them completely...

Hope that kinda better explains what I was perhaps not articulating properly or being to richardish.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tarogato, on 13 February 2017 - 04:57 PM, said:

+1 to Bishop here. I knew what he meant, and I posted that video anyways because it's a pretty amusing, and related. There was no implication that every or any person blocked by Russ exhibits troll-like behaviour, just that it's a recurring theme.

Thank ye kindly Guv'nah

[Pariah Devalis]

It would more than likely be a waste of time. That said, it would be interesting. I'd also say it is better to put forth well reasoned arguments for your cause (even if they are not widely accepted) and be ignored than to simply suffer in silence. Who knows? Maybe something someone says might trigger a related thought in someone involved in development somewhere down the line.

This forum generally agrees on certain things as being problems. However, as someone said, almost no two posters tend to have ideas that align well. We disagree on solutions. That said, we also do this because we see things from our own points of view, which are entirely separate from one another's, which is a good thing. You get a variety of ideas, many of which would never be considered in the first place simply due to a lack of a given perspective.

Of course, there are several ideas floating around these forums that would never be considered in the first place... simply because they are god awful. I mean... just... just terrible. One cannot expect ANY solution to be perfect. They are all going to have flaws, but some of these ideas make me seriously question the abilities of some schools to properly teach critical thinking skills.

[Lupis Volk]

pbiggz, on 13 February 2017 - 04:37 PM, said:

, but i think some people would reject it on principal because it violates the TT bible.

This is my only issue with Battletech. Those who shackle devs to a medium that can't translate easily to video games. The Roughnech outrage was proof enough.

[LordNothing]

i see this more as a salt spewing contest than anything that will actually fix any of the issues with the game.

[Johnny Z]

I would rather hear updates to the roadmap and details on MW 5 and other interesting things. Long term goals etc.