40 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

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Disassociating ‘Mech Mobility Attributes from Engine Ratings

Engine selection has long been a balance sore-spot in MWO. Too much was gained by upgrading Engines to higher ratings, with little opportunity for providing a compelling give-and-take between the lighter, slower Engines against the heavier, faster Engines. The system also created a dynamic where baseline ‘Mech viability could be dramatically impacted by the inherent Engine restrictions of a 'Mech. These issues only compounded Inner Sphere and Clan imbalances, with Clan 'Mechs fielding much heavier Engines than their Inner Sphere counterparts - with no sacrifice to Loadout - due to fundamentally lighter equipment.

With the above issues in mind, we intend to break baseline Mobility characteristics away from Engines. Mobility will instead be determined by the overall tonnage of the chassis. It’s important to note that this will not affect the speed of a ‘Mech, which will remain tied with Engine size.
This change was specifically designed in the context of the Skill Tree, but was omitted from the first PTS as we continued to finalize some work required for implementing it. With that work complete, this system will be on full display in the upcoming PTS update.

At a top-down level, you can expect Mobility to now be roughly equal across tonnage lines. While their speeds will differ, an UrbanMech will now have the same Mobility attributes as an Arctic Cheetah, while a Kodiak will share the same Mobility attributes as an Atlas.

This change is not only intended to improve baseline balance between ‘Mechs, techbases, and Engines, but also to accomplish one of the stated design goals of the Skill Tree system. That is, to facilitate a drastic reduction in inherent ‘Mech Quirks.

As a result of this change we will be removing all of the current Mobility Quirks from Inner Sphere BattleMechs and Clan Center Torso OmniPods. Non-CT OmniPod and Set of 8 Mobility Quirks will remain.

Many ‘Mechs previously balanced around superior Mobility Quirks will instead see those Quirks integrated into the inherent Mobility attributes of the 'Mech. Those inherent Mobility attributes will then be evaluated and adjusted against similar 'Mechs within their tonnage bracket. For example, the Phoenix Hawk will be provided with higher baseline Mobility stats compared to the Blackjack.

i know many have wanted this for a wail as it brings a halt to the Engine Arms Race,
but what are your thoughts on this, do you agree with this change?

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,

Edit- Spelling,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 20 February 2017 - 09:30 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Strongly benefits mechs with low engine caps for their weight, or omnis with locked small engines (KFX, ADR, HMN, NVA, NTG, DWF, the eventual future Nova Cat). Nerfs over-engined mechs a bit, however, such as the GAR. Still, that big engine they have does confer a faster ground speed, which is an advantage of its own. It also makes more sense. Why would the torso twist be so heavily impacted by engine speed? More importantly, it removes one variable from the game when it comes to trying to balance things. In other words, it helps make balancing easier, long term.

Edit: actually excited about how it can help under-engined omnis. I hate how the Gyr handles, and was worried about how the Nova Cat, which has an even smaller engine, would eventually handle. I can deal with being slow. I cannot stand it when a heavy moves like a super-heavy assault, however.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 20 February 2017 - 10:07 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 20 February 2017 - 10:04 PM, said:

Strongly benefits mechs with low engine caps for their weight, or omnis with locked small engines (KFX, ADR, HMN, NVA, NTG, DWF, the eventual future Nova Cat). Nerfs over-engined mechs a bit, however, such as the GAR. Still, that big engine they have does confer a faster ground speed, which is an advantage of its own. It also makes more sense. Why would the torso twist be so heavily impacted by engine speed? More importantly, it removes one variable from the game when it comes to trying to balance things. In other words, it helps make balancing easier, long term.

Well, hopefully mechs like the Gargles will still have high twist and such since it basically has nothing else going for it.

[FupDup]

Pariah Devalis, on 20 February 2017 - 10:04 PM, said:

Strongly benefits mechs with low engine caps for their weight, or omnis with locked small engines (KFX, ADR, HMN, NVA, NTG, DWF, the eventual future Nova Cat). Nerfs over-engined mechs a bit, however, such as the GAR. Still, that big engine they have does confer a faster ground speed, which is an advantage of its own. It also makes more sense. Why would the torso twist be so heavily impacted by engine speed? More importantly, it removes one variable from the game when it comes to trying to balance things. In other words, it helps make balancing easier, long term.

Big engines also give more heatsink slots.

Whether or not some things get buffed or nerfed depends on where exactly PGI sets the baseline. Your predictions of Gargles going down and Pumas going up seem likely, but I really want to know the exact values we're dealing with.

Edited by FupDup, 20 February 2017 - 10:11 PM.

[El Bandito]

I want less mobility for mechs in general, so this is good news for me. Also, Std engine will now be slightly more attractive than before, compared to larger XL engine.

[chucklesMuch]

I like the decoupling in principle, so this is promising. Looking forward to playing around with the PTS. More so than the patch. Also nice to see that the skill costs have decreased.

[Weeny Machine]

I think it is great for 3 reasons:

1. Light mechs / fast mediums vs. agile heavies/assaults
These mech sacrifice armour, structure, heat disipation, range and (sustained) firepower for speed. Yet, the over-agile heavies and assaults negated that advantage. Especially heavies are ridiculous. So, this means that the factor speed may get more relevant again - finally. It will also reward the dudes for positioning well

2. Mechs with low engine cap vs. ones with a high engine cap
It helps to close the gap between those 2 e.g. Nova and Stormcrow

3. XL vs Standard Engine
It will make the standard engine more attractive, helping the IS




All in all this might be one of the best things PGI has done so far

Edited by Bush Hopper, 20 February 2017 - 11:43 PM.

[FireStoat]

Rest in piece, Linebacker. The nerfs land a bit early before the Cbill release though. And before you say "but they'll be keeping their mobility quirks!" - keep in mind that they had those quirks operating in the presence of the mobility gain of their massive engine. It was a 1+1=2 piece of napkin math for them, and now it looks like a good portion of that will be chopped off.

[kapusta11]

Night Gyr buff incoming, nice.

[Duke Nedo]

I'm positive, I have wished for this. Removing all mobility quirks seems a little drastic though, but probably good to try to get an impression of the effects unquirked first.

kapusta11, on 21 February 2017 - 12:14 AM, said:

Night Gyr buff incoming, nice.

Unless a 300 engine on a 75 ton mech happens to be right on the baseline.

[kapusta11]

Duke Nedo, on 21 February 2017 - 12:16 AM, said:

Unless a 300 engine on a 75 ton mech happens to be right on the baseline.

Then.. Black Knight/Marauder nerf incoming, sad.

[Duke Nedo]

kapusta11, on 21 February 2017 - 12:18 AM, said:

Then.. Black Knight/Marauder nerf incoming, sad.

Yeah, there are a few that will suffer that doesn't need it.... like the wubshee and the wubmaster, but also the kodiaks and timberwolves. In general it should help to level the field a bit, and in general it should also help IS base tech get a little closer to clan performance since clans on average have larger engines than IS builds.

But that's only for the base tech though since most viable IS mechs have mobility quirks already that they will lose so the change over night may be a nerf to most IS mechs this time around. Hopefully they will just see this on the PTS and realize that they need to balance the IS and clan XL engines some more..

In any case, I believe this is a step towards balance in the long run.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 21 February 2017 - 12:26 AM.

[kapusta11]

It's the base tech differences that make one side stronger, not the the way how certain things, that affect both sides, work.

Hate to ruin anyone's excitement, but if both sides end up being nerfed/buffed, guess what, clan mechs will remain to be better.

[visionGT4]

Cant fault the logic behind decoupling engine size from overall mobility as these things are far more mobile than they should be IMO (sorry I don't subscribe to the concept of gundams prancing around like fairy's doing handstands + cartwheels and the like) .

But did it really need to be implemented in a such a savage manor which results in yet another nerf to IS mechs and just accentuates the fact that clan is by conscious decision and design fully intended to be the easy mode choice of this game. Which from a business perspective cant be faulted - when you see the lol prices of the clan invasion packs, driving nubs towards clan is a cunning plan.

Who would willingly associate themselves with easy mode nabs? A surprisingly large number of people it seems..

[DovisKhan]

basically a huge nerf to clan omnimechs

[Duke Nedo]

kapusta11, on 21 February 2017 - 12:54 AM, said:

It's the base tech differences that make one side stronger, not the the way how certain things, that affect both sides, work.

Hate to ruin anyone's excitement, but if both sides end up being nerfed/buffed, guess what, clan mechs will remain to be better.

Agreed, but instead of clans being double buffed by better engines they are only single buffed so it helps a little.

[l33tworks]

I used to like the idea but really do they have to completely decouple it? Maybe just reduce it by 50%.

Means all mechs are going to feel the same now. The fast engine gabe you the ability to give new flavour to the same mech based on your build

[occusoj]

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As a result of this change we will be removing all of the current Mobility Quirks from Inner Sphere BattleMechs ...

Goodbye Cicadas, K2, Wubshee and many more.
I dont play a lot of clan mechs but, for example, Mr.Gargles should be totally screwed if his agility doesnt remain.

None of these mechs were too strong to begin with, so its just collateral damage I guess?

Looks like good times for another one year break coming up.

[Widowmaker1981]

Might as well remove all engines rated above 350, since the straight line speed gain is absolutely not worth the crazy tonnage increases at those ratings without the agility bonuses. - They will be noob traps

[Mudhutwarrior]

It sounds like a good idea bringing many mechs back into the fold and possibly killing the meta drive. I will wait to see how it looks on PTS before passing judgement.

I have to assume the power rangers will not like it one bit though.