306 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

im just hoping this will allow for better balance,
now a mech that is under preforming can have more things buffed to make it better,
before it was just Accell/Decell Twist Angle, now those things will matter more,
also Twist Speed and such will also be viable ways to buff / Nerf a Mech,

KDK-3 too strong?
make it turn like a Battleship and call it a day,

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 March 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

Sure, but that's asking a lot of the current regime. I mean to buff laser boats would incite riots on the forums because they were OP 2 years ago currently with with their huge pinpoint alphas, I mean my Atlas with 50 rear CT armor shouldn't get cored from the front from one alpha from a Clan 65 tonner.

That still doesn't mean it shouldn't happen if it sets us up for better balance even if it means laser vomit is overall less viable.

[Wintersdark]

I'm no "OMG TEH LAZOR VOMIT IS BAD" guy - It's day in the sun is gone, anyways. But I'm ALSO unconcerned if large engined laser boats lose some mobility. Don't care. They're still getting ground speed and heat sinks out of the large engine, so they're still in a good place, even if not the meta anymore. They're fast, have good firepower and good heat management. *shrugs* They'll be fine losing some agility.

Gas Guzzler, on 01 March 2017 - 09:24 AM, said:

Judging by the "b-b-b-but assaults twist and turn as fast as mediums" crowd, that might be what the causal forum warrior would prefer. Maybe they will meet halfway in between...

Wait, you think Assaults should have the same mobility as mediums? Really?

Now, I'm not saying Assaults should have less mobility than they do now! Increase medium mobility (particularly with smaller engines) and I'm a happy camper.

But really, if Assaults and Heavies have the same mobility as Mediums, while carrying more firepower, more armor, and generally moving around the same speeds... why use mediums?

They really shouldn't be the same, though, and they are right now.

[1453 R]

Whelp, PGI says we'll all get to see how bad the damage is by the end of the week.

Fully expecting assaults as a whole to be less than half as mobile as 'typical' designs are now, simply because the average grognard feels that assaults being able to track anything moving over sixty klicks is far too broken. Heavies won't be far behind - why not slap around the top half of the weight bracket, try and artificially get people into lighter 'Mechs by making the heavier ones too frustrating and unfun to play for most? Not like medium pilots should want to be medium pilots or anything.

I'd say "play your fasties while you can", but I'll admit - Legacy League is dropping in Path of Exile this weekend and I've already been explicitly instructed to keep off the PTS as it is. Figuring I'm going to just slaughter a few million zombies over the weekend and let all the folks who swore seven ways from Saturday that they'd sharply protest heavily restrictive game-wide mobility megagigagagglenerfs get right on their not-doing-that.

Have fun, guys. Hope the engine rejigger is everything you've claimed it would be no matter how often everyone else prayed the idea would never get anywhere.

[l33tworks]

Widowmaker1981, on 28 February 2017 - 05:21 AM, said:

See, this annoys me. No assault is twisting faster than a medium, unless the medium has been built by a .... person of low intelligence. That Banshee with an XL380? It twists the same as a Hunchback with a 200 engine. Which is a completely terrible build, and about the least agile a medium can be, where that Banshee is on the top end for assaults, mobility wise.

Yea I dont get how people cant fathem this. It was already pretty logical its not like Assailts were running around like lights. In order to run an xl380 you have to give up a LOT of free tonnage, and you still werent THAT agile in reality by any means, just agile for an assault but still pretty darn slowish.

[Gas Guzzler]

Wintersdark, on 01 March 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

Wait, you think Assaults should have the same mobility as mediums? Really?

Now, I'm not saying Assaults should have less mobility than they do now! Increase medium mobility (particularly with smaller engines) and I'm a happy camper.

But really, if Assaults and Heavies have the same mobility as Mediums, while carrying more firepower, more armor, and generally moving around the same speeds... why use mediums?

They really shouldn't be the same, though, and they are right now.

There are mediums in this game that can have more of an impact on a match than half the assaults available, so there are plenty of reasons to take mediums.

I agree that assaults should not be agile as mediums, but maybe I'm still traumatized from Russ's justification for giving the Victor -20% torso twist and turn rate nerfs back in the day, which was that a Victor should not twist like a 50 ton Centurion, it should twist like its 80 tons. Yeah, a Victor with an XL350 would indeed twist faster than a 200 engine Centurion, but 200 engine Centurions were never viable were they? 70 kph medium? I don't think so.. And of course that left he 80 tonner twisting slower than a 100 tonner so that logic was never really valid.

[Volag]

OP should also add the Zeus to his list of nerfed mechs, it always was essentially a big heavy mech anyway.

[Gas Guzzler]

Kodiak accelerates like a Dire Wolf, confirmed. Dire Wolf agility is the base line it seems.

[1453 R]

Volag, on 02 March 2017 - 04:20 AM, said:

OP should also add the Zeus to his list of nerfed mechs, it always was essentially a big heavy mech anyway.

Oh, I'm completely waiting for folks to eventually tromp in here and inform me "See? Everything's fine. The tuning is absolutely spot-on perfect and you're a twit for ever doubting that something like this could be done in any manner save completely and utterly perfectly."

Having at least patched in and taken a look at the skill trees, I can see they're the same nasty mess of "Take the ENTIRE branch or skip the branch completely" snarled-up screwballery. Did not bother trying to find a game, last night was busy and I didn't have time to sit and wait thirty minutes for the matchmaker to kick in, but I'm going to assume that -

Gas Guzzler, on 02 March 2017 - 07:52 AM, said:

Kodiak accelerates like a Dire Wolf, confirmed. Dire Wolf agility is the base line it seems.

Ah. There we go.

Is it too early to say 'called it'? Probably, but I'm pretty confident we'll get there.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 02 March 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:

Is it too early to say 'called it'? Probably, but I'm pretty confident we'll get there.

Still doesn't mean the implementation is the problem, just the baseline, for which we will complain about, like we said we would if that were to happen.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 March 2017 - 09:10 AM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

1453 R, on 02 March 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:

Oh, I'm completely waiting for folks to eventually tromp in here and inform me "See? Everything's fine. The tuning is absolutely spot-on perfect and you're a twit for ever doubting that something like this could be done in any manner save completely and utterly perfectly."

Having at least patched in and taken a look at the skill trees, I can see they're the same nasty mess of "Take the ENTIRE branch or skip the branch completely" snarled-up screwballery. Did not bother trying to find a game, last night was busy and I didn't have time to sit and wait thirty minutes for the matchmaker to kick in, but I'm going to assume that -


Ah. There we go.

Is it too early to say 'called it'? Probably, but I'm pretty confident we'll get there.

We've called you out for your absolutely asinine hyperbole, and your assertion that decoupling agility from engines, mechanically, cannot be done well under any circumstances. It was a false statement.

Nobody was saying the skill trees were well organized, or that PGI would get it right on this next pass. You haven't 'called' anything half of us in this topic haven't already 'called', and nothing about this pass made me want to "take a 250".

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 02 March 2017 - 09:27 AM.

[1453 R]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 March 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

Still doesn't mean the implementation is the problem, just the baseline, for which we will complain about, like we said we would if that were to happen.

The baseline is part of the implementation, Quicksilver. And with (theoretical) FutureTech due this summer with its attendant workload, there is a definite finite amount of iteration time Piranha is willing to put into this crap.

If y'all have more than one chance to try and get this raging clusterfisk even halfway right, I'd be surprised. I'd say "better not screw it up", but we all know better.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 02 March 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

We've called you out for your absolutely asinine hyperbole, and your assertion that decoupling agility from engines, mechanically, cannot be done well under any circumstances. It was a false statement.

Nobody was saying the skill trees were well organized, or that PGI would get it right on this next pass. You haven't 'called' anything half of us in this topic haven't already 'called', and nothing about this pass made me want to "take a 250".

Is the game More, or Less, fun on PTS right now?

From what I've seen, there's a lot of 'Less' going around, in large part because Piranha dun goofed on the engine thing. Which all of you told me was flat-out impossible for them to do.

McGral is off in the other thread mentioning how lights no longer have enough mobility to stay in the rear arcs of even trundling Whale-level pre-legged assaults. Something you folks all told me, constantly, would never even conceivably happen because clearly everybody knows better.

Who knows what better now, if I may ask, Jack?

Edited by 1453 R, 02 March 2017 - 09:31 AM.

[cazidin]

So, how many 30 KPH assaults are on the PTS?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 02 March 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

The baseline is part of the implementation, Quicksilver. And with (theoretical) FutureTech due this summer with its attendant workload, there is a definite finite amount of iteration time Piranha is willing to put into this crap.

Wrong word, meant concept. There is also plenty of time between now and summer to get this fixed and still have time for futuretech, just lol.

1453 R, on 02 March 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

From what I've seen, there's a lot of 'Less' going around, in large part because Piranha dun goofed on the engine thing.

If anything, they more goofed on the accel/decel values being off by 2 decimal places for several variants. There is still definitely some fine tuning that needs to be done judging from comparison videos I have seen (and the fact the Dire Wolf was the basis for 100 tonners). That said it doesn't mean the idea is flawed, just that you are willing to jump at ANY reason to say a concept failed when the implementation was off.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

1453 R, on 02 March 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

The baseline is part of the implementation, Quicksilver. And with (theoretical) FutureTech due this summer with its attendant workload, there is a definite finite amount of iteration time Piranha is willing to put into this crap.

If y'all have more than one chance to try and get this raging clusterfisk even halfway right, I'd be surprised. I'd say "better not screw it up", but we all know better.




Is the game More, or Less, fun on PTS right now?

From what I've seen, there's a lot of 'Less' going around, in large part because Piranha dun goofed on the engine thing. Which all of you told me was flat-out impossible for them to do.

McGral is off in the other thread mentioning how lights no longer have enough mobility to stay in the rear arcs of even trundling Whale-level pre-legged assaults. Something you folks all told me, constantly, would never even conceivably happen because clearly everybody knows better.

Who knows what better now, if I may ask, Jack?

Your either confused or just making things up. None of us told you that it was impossible, not one, not single one of us did. You're mixing up us loudly condemning your hyberbole with us loudly defending PGI. We told you to 'wait and see' and that the very concept of engine decoupling wasn't bad, it would be the values PGI assigned to each mech, which in fact it is.

Also none of us made the claim that this next iteration of the PTS would be more fun than Live, that's a flat out strawman.

[1453 R]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 March 2017 - 09:46 AM, said:

Wrong word, meant concept. There is also plenty of time between now and summer to get this fixed and still have time for futuretech, just lol.


If anything, they more goofed on the accel/decel values being off by 2 decimal places for several variants. There is still definitely some fine tuning that needs to be done judging from comparison videos I have seen (and the fact the Dire Wolf was the basis for 100 tonners). That said it doesn't mean the idea is flawed, just that you are willing to jump at ANY reason to say a concept failed when the implementation was off.

How long is the implementation allowed to be off before the concept will be considered to've failed?

Information Warfare didn't even get a second PTS. Energy Draw got two, but then was shelved. How many are we going to give this ridiculous nobody-moves-anymore option?

Jack Shayu Walker, on 02 March 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

Your either confused or just making things up. None of us told you that it was impossible, not one, not single one of us did. You're mixing up us loudly condemning your hyberbole with us loudly defending PGI. We told you to 'wait and see' and that the very concept of engine decoupling wasn't bad, it would be the values PGI assigned to each mech, which in fact it is.

Also none of us made the claim that this next iteration of the PTS would be more fun than Live, that's a flat out strawman.

"The very concept of engine decoupling" is ABSOLUTELY bad. This whole "large engines should be an actively bad decision for as absolutely many people and 'Mech designs/roles/goals/builds as is humanly possible!" horse hockey bothers me to no end. Everyone said "It'll all be perfectly fine! Skilltrees will fix everything and the game will be better forever!"

Skilltrees fixed nothing. The PTS has examples of Cicadas taking four minutes to get up to maximum speed. Which is hilarious in its own right but as a man with very fond memories of my days in Cicadas...no. Just no.

How many PTS sessions does this thing get before it dies like the rest?

[Widowmaker1981]

bugs aside, the values are pretty abysmal, everything big is losing a massive ton of agility, except the Dire which is staying in the same incredibly unfun position its in now. Even the things which lose the least, like Highlanders, are still losing agility.

I said this would happen. PGI wont relent, they think the best way to force medium popularity is to make bigger mechs horribly unfun to play

[Wintersdark]

1453 R, on 02 March 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

Information Warfare didn't even get a second PTS. Energy Draw got two, but then was shelved. How many are we going to give this ridiculous nobody-moves-anymore option?

I'll bet hard cash they implement this. Not exactly as it is, but they ARE going to do it.

Quote

"The very concept of engine decoupling" is ABSOLUTELY bad. This whole "large engines should be an actively bad decision for as absolutely many people and 'Mech designs/roles/goals/builds as is humanly possible!" horse hockey bothers me to no end. Everyone said "It'll all be perfectly fine! Skilltrees will fix everything and the game will be better forever!"

You are a raging idiot.

NOBODY SAID THAT. NOBODY. For ***** sake, this whole time, YOU'VE been saying "everyone is saying" when NOBODY IS.

Jesus Christ. What is wrong with you?

Quote

Skilltrees fixed nothing. The PTS has examples of Cicadas taking four minutes to get up to maximum speed. Which is hilarious in its own right but as a man with very fond memories of my days in Cicadas...no. Just no.

Because of a bug with regards to decimal places. I have a Jenner that takes minutes to get to speed, and another which does so basically instantly, because one accelerates at 44KPH/s and the other at 0.44KPH/s. See the difference? IT'S A BUG.



In this: Large assaults are a somewhat slow; slower than I'd like. The don't turn too badly, but need some accel.

1453 R, on 02 March 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

From what I've seen, there's a lot of 'Less' going around, in large part because Piranha dun goofed on the engine thing. Which all of you told me was flat-out impossible for them to do.

NOBODY SAID IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE FOR PGI TO SCREW IT UP.

We all said it was likely PGI would flub the implementation out of the gate and need to fix things. *shrugs* It's PGI, of course they did.

It's also a PTS, and the problems are tuning problems and of course the acceleration BUG.

Quote

McGral is off in the other thread mentioning how lights no longer have enough mobility to stay in the rear arcs of even trundling Whale-level pre-legged assaults. Something you folks all told me, constantly, would never even conceivably happen because clearly everybody knows better.

Who knows what better now, if I may ask, Jack?

Nobody said that could not happen. We said there could be tuning problems. We said we'd complain if there where. There are, and... WHAT? SOMEONE IS COMPLAINING ABOUT THEM? NO! Say it's not so!



In 5 years here, this is the first time I've ever thought someone was a genuine idiot. Seriously. There's something wrong with you.

Not because you don't like the idea. But because you seem to have some deep mental issue, imagining what people are saying and constructing absurd strawman arguments. All these "Everyone said [this]" when literally NOBODY did.

[Gas Guzzler]

Widowmaker1981, on 02 March 2017 - 10:19 AM, said:

bugs aside, the values are pretty abysmal, everything big is losing a massive ton of agility, except the Dire which is staying in the same incredibly unfun position its in now. Even the things which lose the least, like Highlanders, are still losing agility.

I said this would happen. PGI wont relent, they think the best way to force medium popularity is to make bigger mechs horribly unfun to play

I still think its funny that mediums are victimized when the Hunchback-IIC exists.

But yeah, people think assaults not walking through molasses feel "gundam-y".

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 March 2017 - 10:25 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 March 2017 - 10:24 AM, said:

I still think its funny that mediums are victimized when the Hunchback-IIC exists.

But yeah, people think assaults not walking through molasses feel "gundam-y".

Because there's one or two decent mediums makes the weight class just fine? Come on. The HBK-IIC is a fantastic mech, but Mediums as a class are and have been for ages in a bad place. Having a good mech doesn't change that.