306 replies to this topic

[L3mming2]

Wintersdark, on 26 February 2017 - 09:31 AM, said:

I get that, but the turret is relevant when talking about agility in MWO, as it directly correllates to twist speed, and that's an important part of mech agility.

As to turning.... I understand how tanks turn, but they're basically never turning with 100% engine power to the treads.

Acceleration? (I still think acceleration in MWO should remain coupled to engine, but the for Devil's Argument) Acceleration is as much a factor of gearing as it is engine size. You can have a small engined vehicle massively out-accelerate a large engine vehicle, simply because it's geared for power at low speed rather than a high max speed.

Of course, Mech's are mechs, and as I said likening mechs to real world things is fraught with peril because Battlemechs run on Battletech 80's Space Magic, not any kind of real physical laws.

for me seen on the space magic side of things (so pure game play wise) i would prefer if
- twist speed, arm speed was independand of the engine
- acceleration/decceleration and turn speed was 50% dependand on the engine.

that way u can atleast somehow tune the handeling of your chassi to your own liking..

[1453 R]

L3mming2, on 27 February 2017 - 09:31 AM, said:

for me seen on the space magic side of things (so pure game play wise) i would prefer if
- twist speed, arm speed was independand of the engine
- acceleration/decceleration and turn speed was 50% dependand on the engine.

that way u can atleast somehow tune the handeling of your chassi to your own liking..

Nope.

It is utterly 105% imperative that all aspects of a 'Mech's handling and mobility profile be equally 105% hard-locked into the chassis. Absolutely no modification or customization of the 'Mech's movement capabilities or patterns is permitted whatsoever. Your 385XL heavy striker Victor will handle like a stock AWS-8Q and you will love that fact or you're bad at MWO. Sorry man, that's just the way it has to be.

For Great Balance™.

[Wintersdark]

L3mming2, on 27 February 2017 - 09:31 AM, said:

for me seen on the space magic side of things (so pure game play wise) i would prefer if
- twist speed, arm speed was independand of the engine
- acceleration/decceleration and turn speed was 50% dependand on the engine.

that way u can atleast somehow tune the handeling of your chassi to your own liking..

I agree acceleration should remain linked to the engine. I don't know if it will be, and am not so set on it, but I'd LIKE it to stay that way.

Not turn rate though.

While I respect wanting to be able to customize turn rate, that's kind of the problem. Put a smaller engine in your Medium and you turn terribly. This is important because particularly for IS mediums there's lots of good reasons to want to run a smaller engine.

Case in point: The Hunchback 4G. To run this mech as God intended, with an AC 20, you need to be able to turn fast. Need to. But you also need to run a smallish engine.

When turn rate is tied to engine size, this makes Mechs like that incapable of maneuvering effectively.

[Wintersdark]

1453 R, on 27 February 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

Nope.

It is utterly 105% imperative that all aspects of a 'Mech's handling and mobility profile be equally 105% hard-locked into the chassis. Absolutely no modification or customization of the 'Mech's movement capabilities or patterns is permitted whatsoever. Your 385XL heavy striker Victor will handle like a stock AWS-8Q and you will love that fact or you're bad at MWO. Sorry man, that's just the way it has to be.

For Great Balance™.

see, posts like this make me lose all respect for you.

It's fine to disagree, or want something different, but you're basing all your arguments on rank speculation (maybe your AWS8Q will handle like a Victor instead? Like I said, wait and see what the base values are first, offer feedback then). Add in rampant strawmanning - has ANYONE asked for accel to be decoupled? It seems most of us want it to stay linked to speed. Nobody is saying the crap you're claiming we're saying, so either you're just not listening or your arguing with imaginary people.

Yet you persist in this like a belligerent child, making everything some huge all-or-nothing calamity where there's no middle ground at all.

Despite your strawman arguments, the majority of us DO want grey, not black or white.

Maybe you should just have a time out, and relax a bit?

Edited by Wintersdark, 27 February 2017 - 10:44 AM.

[1453 R]

Nobody has any respect for me in the first place, Winter. The little '3' under my name on the left over here guarantees no one takes anything I say seriously anyways, so why pretend like it matters?

Anyways,

You want Real Talk for a minute here? I'm extremely furious at most of the other discussion on this subject because for the most part, other folks are perfectly content for anything above 70 tons to handle like a beached barge, regardless of canonical or actual role. Nobody really cares that 'Mechs like the Victor (note: avoiding Clan 'Mechs completely from this point out because mentioning their names alone short-circuits people) are supposed to be more mobile for their size than most other 'Mechs of that size. They specifically state "The Victor is a support 'Mech that 'supports' its allies by jumping into its enemies' faces and shooting them off with a giant autocannon."

Nobody cares that the Cicada is canonically faster and more maneuverable than our bevy of up-engined 35t lights are - it's a medium 'Mech and thus by law is physically required to be significantly less mobile than a light 'Mech because otherwise the Force is imbalanced. Never mind that everyone knows the Cicada is a light 'Mech that's been to the Krispy Kreme a couple times too many and is effectively identical in its roles, loadouts, and piloting style to light 'Mechs - class boundaries must be respected or this whole endeavor does not work.

Assume, theoretically, that we get the Blitzkrieg later. A 350XL-rated 50-tonner that is pretty much nothing but an AC/20 on rollerblades. It is specifically designed to be an exceptionally fast, powerful striker. For Bob's sake, they named it 'Blitzkrieg'. But because it is a 50-ton medium 'Mech, most folks under this system would expect it to perform in the same general bucket as any other 50-ton 'Mech - more mobile than heavies, less mobile than lights, no real benefit over a 200STD Hunchback with the same* weapon. Doesn't matter that the entire design was built from the ground up specifically to be a high-speed armored gun. Fifty tonners are fifty tonners are fifty f***ing tonners.

I don't know why people are so ready and eager to embrace a world where you can't build a 'Mech that can even partially deviate from the role generically assigned to its weight class. This same system would see Chargers handle similarly to Awesomes simply because the two are both assault 'Mechs and assault 'Mechs are all supposed to move the same general way (poorly) or anyone not in an assault 'Mech flipps schittes.

I like building "Big [X]" 'Mechs. They make me smile, they're interesting to play, they're interesting to try and balance out properly in the 'MechLab. Searching for that spot-on mix of excessive speed, superb agility, just enough firepower of just the right type, on a frame with more ability to absorb punishment than a smaller machine...figuring those out is fun.

But we can't do it anymore because even if Piranha allows for the occasional weird exception, the vast majority of all 'Mechs are going to be only minor variations on their weight class' Galactic Standard Mobility profile. You can't take a Grasshopper and smack a big-ashed engine in it to try and match wits with Summoners, or keep up with the smaller machines everywhere trying to nip at your heels.

This change forces everyone to play any given 'Mech only one specific way. Yes, that appeals to folks who want stronger specific 'Mech identity - the "'Mech Select Button" argument - but it seems awfully rude to just dismantle an entire player niche like this.

And yet everybody is absolutely overjoyed at seeing it gone.

I'm p!ssed off at Piranha and I'm p!ssed off at the playerbase, and everyone continually saying "everything is perfectly fine, your whole thing is nothing but unfounded speculation!" doesn't really help. We know they're killing the ability of overlarge engines to give improved mobility profiles. That is literally what they said they were doing. The stated intent is to make small STD engines a less punitive choice, by allowing 'Mechs to take small STD engines and perform just as well as 'Mechs with very large XL engines. People are celebrating the change for a number of reasons which mostly all boil down to "f*** iXLs" or "f*** assault 'Mechs". And they're so busy with "f*** iXLs" or "f*** assault 'Mechs" that they can't really be ashed to care what else dies in the crossfire.

Everyone keeps claiming "we'll complain about crappy mobility nerfs when the PTS drops!"

I'll believe it when I f***ing see it.

Edited by 1453 R, 27 February 2017 - 11:16 AM.

[MechaBattler]

I see your point 1453R, they are limiting our ability to effect mech performance through engine swapping, thereby limiting customization on our end. I understand what you're saying.

But I'm choosing to ignore it. Seldom do I get to enjoy a bigger IS XL on my mechs anymore. They die so quickly in spite of their increased performance. Too much firepower or pin point damage running around now. I'm more interested to see how this will effect Clan to IS balance. Since Clans tend to have bigger XL engines. Of course since drops will be mixed, it'll be skewed. Maybe I can find some people in the unit to do clan versus IS drop.

[JC Daxion]

Wintersdark, on 27 February 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

I agree acceleration should remain linked to the engine. I don't know if it will be, and am not so set on it, but I'd LIKE it to stay that way.

Not turn rate though.

While I respect wanting to be able to customize turn rate, that's kind of the problem. Put a smaller engine in your Medium and you turn terribly. This is important because particularly for IS mediums there's lots of good reasons to want to run a smaller engine.

Case in point: The Hunchback 4G. To run this mech as God intended, with an AC 20, you need to be able to turn fast. Need to. But you also need to run a smallish engine.

When turn rate is tied to engine size, this makes Mechs like that incapable of maneuvering effectively.

Yup.. this is exactly my thinking as well..

Then on the flip side, these giant mechs that people stuff giant XL engines to twist faster than a medium to me just feels wrong.

This change right here i've been waiting for, for years!

[Widowmaker1981]

JC Daxion, on 27 February 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

Yup.. this is exactly my thinking as well..

Then on the flip side, these giant mechs that people stuff giant XL engines to twist faster than a medium to me just feels wrong.

This change right here i've been waiting for, for years!

See, this annoys me. No assault is twisting faster than a medium, unless the medium has been built by a .... person of low intelligence. That Banshee with an XL380? It twists the same as a Hunchback with a 200 engine. Which is a completely terrible build, and about the least agile a medium can be, where that Banshee is on the top end for assaults, mobility wise.

[Wintersdark]

Widowmaker1981, on 28 February 2017 - 05:21 AM, said:

See, this annoys me. No assault is twisting faster than a medium, unless the medium has been built by a .... person of low intelligence. That Banshee with an XL380? It twists the same as a Hunchback with a 200 engine. Which is a completely terrible build, and about the least agile a medium can be, where that Banshee is on the top end for assaults, mobility wise.

Are you sure about that?

Spoiler

Edit: Yes, I don't have specific values, because LSML is broken right now and I can't pull them up at the moment. However, specific turn rates are linear with ground speed, so calculating it as a factor of ground speed inclusive of quirks works - applying the quirk to the ground speed ends up being the same result as applying it to the actual turn rate, due to the linear relationship between the two.

Lets look at the Banshee in particular. La Malinche with a 380XL turns as fast as a 85kph medium as it stands.
STK-5M turns at the equivilant of a 80kph medium.
AWS-8Q? 81kph.
Dragonslayer with a 350 turns like 95kph med.
VTR-9S with a 380 turns like a 115kph med.
...wait, I'm going the wrong way. Here, I'll pull up metamechs and look at top rated assaults instead, and see what they do?
MAL-MX90 w/285: 58kph eq. turn rate.
MAL-1P w/ 295: 60kph eq. turn rate.
BNC-3M w/380: 70kph eq. turn rate.
BLR-2C w/350: 97kph eq turn rate. Pop a 400 in there, and it turns like a 110 kph medium.
STK-3H w/310: 79kph eq turn rate.
CP-11-A turns at the same speed as a 91kph medium while equipping a 350 rated engine. A 380xl makes it turn like a 100kph medium. Hell, the CP-11-P, with Metamech's 275STD is turning like a 72kph medium, and that's a 90t mech with a 275. With the 305, it turns like an 80kph medium.
HGN's across the board with a 315 engine turn like an 82kph med.
AS7-S (350 engine) turns like a 76kph med.

This is getting kind of depressing, so I'll move away from IS assaults. What about Clams?

KDK-SB spins like a freaking top, but has MASC. I forget what MASC's turn rate boost is, but JUST counting the turn rate from speed alone it's turning like a 107kph medium. My KDK-4 turns at 71.5kph equivalent.
HGN's turn like an 85kph eq. turn rate.
MAD-IIC-A w/325: 67kph eq. turn rate.
MAD-Scorch w/360: 74kph eq. turn rate.
MAD-IIC w/375: 77kph eq. turn rate.
DWF: lol@52kph eq. turn rate.
Executioners turn like a 87kph eq turn rate before activating MASC at all.
For lols, a GAR eq. turn rate is 115kph.

Now, I'm not saying Assaults should turn slower than they do, but the reality is that many of them have VERY comparable mobility to mediums as it stands right now. Given they carry vastly more armor and firepower, the only thing mediums have going for them is... Well, being smaller, doing less damage and dying faster.

Now, I'm being somewhat misleading here, as I'm noting assaults packing things like MASC, or Turn Rate quirks (which most have), largely because the ones without turn rate quirks are fairly obvious as you can just look at the ground speed. And, to be fair, some mediums have Turn Rate quirks too!

Most noteably, the "light" mediums have substantial turn rate quirks, so yeah things like Phoenix Hawks and some Cicadas turn REALLY fast. On the other hand, Blackjacks (+10% arrow excepted) don't have any, while Crabs have 5% across the board. Lets go back to Metamechs, and look at the top rated mediums

Sparky, 280XL, 88.7kph eq. turn rate.
BJ-1 w/225, 87kph eq. turn rate
TBT-5J w/265 [really? one of the top rated IS mediums on metamechs is a TBT?] 92kph eq. turn rate.
GRF-3M w/300: 95kph eq. turn rate.
HBK-4P w/250: 87kph eq. turn rate
ENF-4R w/260: 90kph eq. turn rate.
CRB-27B w/280: 101kph eq. turn rate.
SHD-2D2 w/270: 85kph eq. turn rate.
BSW-P1 w/340: 108kph eq. turn rate.

So... Those are looking very much like the assaults' turn rates, with the exception of a couple up-engined mediums turning very slightly faster than the faster [but non-MASC, cuz the SB and EXE outturn everything w/o MASC] assaults. Lets look at some Clam mediums, too.

HBK-IIC-A w/275: 96kph eq. turn rate.
HBK-IIC w/ 225: 78kph eq. turn rate
HBK-IIC-C w/255: 89kph eq. turn rate. (normally I'd just do one or two, but these dominate T1 for Clam Meds and cover the common engines, so there you have it)
NVA-A w/250: 87kph eq. turn rate.
HMN, any: 87kph eq. turn rate.
SCR, any: 105kph eq. turn rate.

Again, it's looking a lot like that assault list.

Generally, mediums are a bit higher, and to be sure there are unquirked assaults that are lower, but you'll note that using the top rated mechs, the turn rates are very, very similar between Assaults and Mediums. Mediums should be DRAMATICALLY more agile than Assaults.

Edited by Wintersdark, 28 February 2017 - 08:50 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wintersdark, on 28 February 2017 - 08:08 AM, said:

Lets look at the Banshee in particular. La Malinche with a 380XL turns as fast as a 85kph medium as it stands.

Just want to point out this is a bad example because the La Malinche isn't the most capable Banshee, that would be the 3M.

[Wintersdark]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 February 2017 - 08:25 AM, said:

Just want to point out this is a bad example because the La Malinche isn't the most capable Banshee, that would be the 3M.

Obviously.

As you may be able to see, I shifted focus in the post there to start using mechs from the top tiers of Metamechs. I initially just started looking at random assaults, but the first few where all ones I assumed folks would say exactly what you just said - note the Malinche, AWS, VTR.

It's still not a bad example, though. Maybe a less relevant one, if you only care about top rated mechs (and that's why I adjusted focus there) but it still goes to show that there's a bunch of Assaults that turn as fast or faster than mediums. The BNC-Malinche may not be anywhere near as dangerous as a BNC-3M, but it's handily out-maneuvering, out-armoring, and out-gunning mediums, and THAT is the important point.

I'll add the Metamechs BNC-3M for completeness sake, and the Maulers.



The point of the post remains exactly the same, however. The top tier assaults turn at basically the same range of turn rates as the top tier mediums do; what's more, there are a couple 100t assaults (Spirit Bear, Executioner, soon-to-be Zeus hero) that turn faster than said mediums due to MASC.

Edit: There are a couple on both sides with abysmal turn rates - the Dire Wolf and Mauler to name two particularly egregious examples, but they are absolutely the minority. The Mauler is quirked, but it's just a 5% gain and most Mauler builds are pretty slow. I'll add the top two though.


This is what I get for deciding to investigate these claims and posting what I find as I find it.

Edited by Wintersdark, 28 February 2017 - 08:53 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Wintersdark, on 28 February 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

Obviously.

As you may be able to see, I shifted focus in the post there to start using mechs from the top tiers of Metamechs. I initially just started looking at random assaults, but the first few where all ones I assumed folks would say exactly what you just said - note the Malinche, AWS, VTR.

It's still not a bad example, though. Maybe a less relevant one, if you only care about top rated mechs (and that's why I adjusted focus there) but it still goes to show that there's a bunch of Assaults that turn as fast or faster than mediums. The BNC-Malinche may not be anywhere near as dangerous as a BNC-3M, but it's handily out-maneuvering, out-armoring, and out-gunning mediums, and THAT is the important point.

I'll add the Metamechs BNC-3M for completeness sake, and the Maulers.



The point of the post remains exactly the same, however. The top tier assaults turn at basically the same range of turn rates as the top tier mediums do; what's more, there are a couple 100t assaults (Spirit Bear, Executioner, soon-to-be Zeus hero) that turn faster than said mediums due to MASC.

Edit: There are a couple on both sides with abysmal turn rates - the Dire Wolf and Mauler to name two particularly egregious examples, but they are absolutely the minority. The Mauler is quirked, but it's just a 5% gain and most Mauler builds are pretty slow. I'll add the top two though.


This is what I get for deciding to investigate these claims and posting what I find as I find it.

Maybe some of the quirks are a problem then?

MASC isnt really relevant - while it is very good its limited to specific mechs, and its not quite the same as actually having that mobility profile due to the curser jump while its on.

Its also worth noting that the Banshee with the 380XL is spending 30% of its free tonnage on the engine, compared to 20% for a 50 tonner with a 200. Mediums can upgrade engine a whole hell of a lot cheaper than assaults and as such should NOT be less agile, or even close - if built right

Some mediums may well have too low an engine cap. Thats a problem, which could be fixed by.. increasing it.

edit: I guess what im saying is that, if quirks were not a thing, ground speed being coupled to mobility should make all mediums much more agile than all assaults, by simple maths - its very easy for mediums to get a ratio of 5 or even 6 rating:tonnage where assaults get 4 at the most, and thats with a relatively huge engine investment. Therefore if assaults ARE as agile as mediums, the fault is with quirks.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 28 February 2017 - 09:12 AM.

[Wintersdark]

1453 R, on 27 February 2017 - 11:14 AM, said:

Nobody has any respect for me in the first place, Winter. The little '3' under my name on the left over here guarantees no one takes anything I say seriously anyways, so why pretend like it matters?

I did, before this. *shrugs* I don't care about that '3' in the slightest.

Quote

Anyways,

You want Real Talk for a minute here? I'm extremely furious at most of the other discussion on this subject because for the most part, other folks are perfectly content for anything above 70 tons to handle like a beached barge, regardless of canonical or actual role. Nobody really cares that 'Mechs like the Victor (note: avoiding Clan 'Mechs completely from this point out because mentioning their names alone short-circuits people) are supposed to be more mobile for their size than most other 'Mechs of that size. They specifically state "The Victor is a support 'Mech that 'supports' its allies by jumping into its enemies' faces and shooting them off with a giant autocannon."

See? See these "Other folks"? Who? Who is saying that? Quote them?

We all care that the Victor is supposed to be more mobile. Nobody is happy that the Victor sucks! People complain about that all the time. Sure, when the Victor was The Top Dog, people bitched - there's always people complaining about the guy on top of the pole. The poptart meta was more frustrating for most, too, which contributed there.

However, the PTS specifically states that mechs that rely on mobility will get enhanced mobility. They SPECIFICALLY state that mobility quirked mechs will see that rolled into their base profile. You know what the Victor has? Mobility quirks! 50% Accel/decel, 25% turn, 40% twist. They've thus already covered that. The Victor WILL be more agile than a "standard" assault by their own guidelines.

Quote

Nobody cares that the Cicada is canonically faster and more maneuverable than our bevy of up-engined 35t lights are - it's a medium 'Mech and thus by law is physically required to be significantly less mobile than a light 'Mech because otherwise the Force is imbalanced. Never mind that everyone knows the Cicada is a light 'Mech that's been to the Krispy Kreme a couple times too many and is effectively identical in its roles, loadouts, and piloting style to light 'Mechs - class boundaries must be respected or this whole endeavor does not work.

Again, who says this? Have you noted that the Cicada as well has +mobility quirks? Much like the others of it's ilk, the Shadowcat, Icefridge, Viper, Phoenix Hawk and Vindicator. One can then expect all of these to have enhanced movement profiles.

Quote

Assume, theoretically, that we get the Blitzkrieg later. A 350XL-rated 50-tonner that is pretty much nothing but an AC/20 on rollerblades. It is specifically designed to be an exceptionally fast, powerful striker. For Bob's sake, they named it 'Blitzkrieg'. But because it is a 50-ton medium 'Mech, most folks under this system would expect it to perform in the same general bucket as any other 50-ton 'Mech - more mobile than heavies, less mobile than lights, no real benefit over a 200STD Hunchback with the same* weapon. Doesn't matter that the entire design was built from the ground up specifically to be a high-speed armored gun. Fifty tonners are fifty tonners are fifty f***ing tonners.

Wut? A 350 rated AC20 mech even it it had zero agility quirks would move at 120kph. Lets assume it turns at the same speed as a 225 rated Hunchback. It can still move some 40kph faster. That's WAY MORE VALUABLE than turning faster, and the base mobility values for a 50t medium should be very quick. So, I don't see how this is a problem?

Quote

I don't know why people are so ready and eager to embrace a world where you can't build a 'Mech that can even partially deviate from the role generically assigned to its weight class. This same system would see Chargers handle similarly to Awesomes simply because the two are both assault 'Mechs and assault 'Mechs are all supposed to move the same general way (poorly) or anyone not in an assault 'Mech flipps schittes.

Because that's not the proposed system.

The proposed system SPECIFICALLY says agility quirked mechs, mechs that are supposed to be more agile, WILL BE MORE AGILE.

You quoted this in your OP:

---

Many ‘Mechs previously balanced around superior Mobility Quirks will instead see those Quirks integrated into the inherent Mobility attributes of the 'Mech. Those inherent Mobility attributes will then be evaluated and adjusted against similar 'Mechs within their tonnage bracket. For example, the Phoenix Hawk will be provided with higher baseline Mobility stats compared to the Blackjack.

---

Quote

I like building "Big [X]" 'Mechs. They make me smile, they're interesting to play, they're interesting to try and balance out properly in the 'MechLab. Searching for that spot-on mix of excessive speed, superb agility, just enough firepower of just the right type, on a frame with more ability to absorb punishment than a smaller machine...figuring those out is fun.

Except right now, it's trivial. I posted just above this the current meta builds for various assaults and mediums, and oh... Look. They turn at roughly the same speed right now. Those Assaults are turning as fast as Mediums in many cases, and they are not max-engine equipped. I could build MANY assaults that are objectively more agile than the mediums there on less popular chassis, while still presenting much more firepower and armor. The mediums have nothing but a speed advantage (most of the time, sometimes they don't even have that).

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But we can't do it anymore because even if Piranha allows for the occasional weird exception, the vast majority of all 'Mechs are going to be only minor variations on their weight class' Galactic Standard Mobility profile. You can't take a Grasshopper and smack a big-ashed engine in it to try and match wits with Summoners, or keep up with the smaller machines everywhere trying to nip at your heels.

Speculation, and speculation assuming PGI is flat out lying about enhancing the baseline profiles of mechs with +agility quirks, which is a VERY large number of them.

Quote

This change forces everyone to play any given 'Mech only one specific way. Yes, that appeals to folks who want stronger specific 'Mech identity - the "'Mech Select Button" argument - but it seems awfully rude to just dismantle an entire player niche like this.

No, not it doesn't. A given mech's turn rate will depend on whether or not you put skill points in turn speed. If everyone chooses to do that, then yeah, they'll turn at the same speed - but that's the same as everyone choosing to use a larger engine (note: this happens right now). But you don't have to take those turn skills; you have other things you could put them in.

You CAN choose to take more turn rate, or you CAN choose to put those skill points into weapons, or jump jets, or sensors, or defense!

Quote

And yet everybody is absolutely overjoyed at seeing it gone.

So... No. It's not gone. You STILL CAN CHOOSE.

AND you can choose to take an agile mech at X tons, or not - exactly like now, where you can take a Phoenix Hawk with massive agility quirks, or a Blackjack with better hardpoints but MUCH less agility quirks. Except, you can choose to take a Phoenix Hawk that doesn't run super fast, but being a Phoenix Hawk, it's STILL much more agile than that Atlas.

Quote

I'm p!ssed off at Piranha and I'm p!ssed off at the playerbase, and everyone continually saying "everything is perfectly fine, your whole thing is nothing but unfounded speculation!" doesn't really help. We know they're killing the ability of overlarge engines to give improved mobility profiles. That is literally what they said they were doing. The stated intent is to make small STD engines a less punitive choice, by allowing 'Mechs to take small STD engines and perform just as well as 'Mechs with very large XL engines. People are celebrating the change for a number of reasons which mostly all boil down to "f*** iXLs" or "f*** assault 'Mechs". And they're so busy with "f*** iXLs" or "f*** assault 'Mechs" that they can't really be ashed to care what else dies in the crossfire.

They've not said where they're targeting baselines, so it IS all speculation.

Those big engines still run faster, and whether you agree or not, objectively, speed is a critical element of mech performance. Those big engines aren't going away.

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Everyone keeps claiming "we'll complain about crappy mobility nerfs when the PTS drops!"

I'll believe it when I f***ing see it.

See?

I'm an assault pilot. More than any other weight class, by a large margin. I *love* Assaults. Do you really think I want all my assaults to handle like Direwolves? Really? Don't be a dolt. Of course I don't. So, if all my Assaults suddenly handle like my Direwolves, then of course I'll rant and rave.

But I *DO* think that my Mediums should ALL handle SUBSTANTIALLY better than my Highlanders (be they IS or Clan), even if they're moving at roughly the same speed. They don't right now. But they're mediums. They have way less firepower, way less armor, way less structure. Why shouldn't they be more agile?

[Wintersdark]

Widowmaker1981, on 28 February 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

Maybe some of the quirks are a problem then?

Are they? Do you think those Assaults should be less agile[lower agility quirks]? Or do you think the Mediums should be more agile? I'm of the later opinion, personally. In the new system, each mech is going to have it's own mobility profile, and it'll depend on the mech and how agile it's supposed to be, not the ground speed.

Quote

MASC isnt really relevant - while it is very good its limited to specific mechs, and its not quite the same as actually having that mobility profile due to the curser jump while its on.

MASC *is* relevant, as you're generally not firing AS your turning a whole lot. And if you are, it's generally while you're at close range where the cursor shake is irrelevant. As well, you can let off the button, fire, hit it again. But the most significant aspect of MASC is the accel/decel and turn rate buffs, as they are ALWAYS available (you just hit MASC while maneuvering, so you don't overheat it).

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Its also worth noting that the Banshee with the 380XL is spending 30% of its free tonnage on the engine, compared to 20% for a 50 tonner with a 200. Mediums can upgrade engine a whole hell of a lot cheaper than assaults and as such should NOT be less agile, or even close - if built right

Except, according to my Metamechs looking above, this is not the case.

In practice, the Assaults ARE as agile as Mediums, right now. The percentage of tonnage spent is irrelevant, all that matters is resultant stats. Those assaults are as agile as mediums, carry more firepower, more armor, more structure. That's not really right.

But this change will separate that, because they can tune Mediums to be more agile independently of engine, so even when they're moving at the same speed.

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Some mediums may well have too low an engine cap. Thats a problem, which could be fixed by.. increasing it.

This doesn't fix anything, it just makes everyone use ever larger engines. Just decouple agility, and set it per chassis where you want it to be.

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edit: I guess what im saying is that, if quirks were not a thing, ground speed being coupled to mobility should make all mediums much more agile than all assaults, by simple maths - its very easy for mediums to get a ratio of 5 or even 6 rating:tonnage where assaults get 4 at the most, and thats with a relatively huge engine investment. Therefore if assaults ARE as agile as mediums, the fault is with quirks.

YES!

The fault *is* with quirks. But if you remove those quirks, the speed:mobility calculation makes all those assaults horrible to play. That's why they have those quirks in the first place.

However, because quirks are applied to final turn rates, mechs with larger engines gain more turn rate from the quirk than mechs with small engines!

See? This is the core of the issue! This is exactly what the point is.

The current system requires mech chassis agility adjustments to be done by quirks. That's the ONLY way to adjust them.

But because the mech's base agility is variable, the gain from the quirk is variable. The more you invest in the engine, the more you gain. It makes balancing agility via quirks too difficult and uncontrollable.

With agility set as a per-chassis specific value and adjusted directly, you can have more agile assaults and less agile assaults, without suddenly having more agile assaults being as agile or more agile than mediums.

You can have more agile but slow assaults, or less agile but fast assaults. That's not possible right now.

It's all MORE tunable with decoupled agility without the unintended consequences.

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Edit: Incidentally, in Beta, we asked for this change in part because of the potential problems moving forward, but it was deemed unnecessary for the very reasons you stated! We didn't have quirks, and there were fewer mechs and specifically no large mechs with huge engine caps, so you'd have to make a very weird medium to have it handle like an assault, even with a maxed engine.

But now we have mechs with agility quirks - and with all mechs having the same base mobility determined by ground speed, we NEED agility quirks - and as a result we've got MANY assaults that handle just like mediums, and no good way to fix the mediums. After all, if they just blanket-quirk the mediums harder, the large engined mediums gain a lot and the small engined mediums gain very little. Undesireable.

Edited by Wintersdark, 28 February 2017 - 09:41 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Widowmaker1981, on 28 February 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

Its also worth noting that the Banshee with the 380XL is spending 30% of its free tonnage on the engine, compared to 20% for a 50 tonner with a 200. Mediums can upgrade engine a whole hell of a lot cheaper than assaults and as such should NOT be less agile, or even close - if built right

A Banshee has a boatload of free tonnage as well, enough so that it can spend 30% on an engine and still have significant firepower. Also, the standard for mediums isn't really that fast, it is pretty much just a hair above the formerly typical heavies ranging from a 255 to a 275 XL (cuz Hunchie IIC is still king of mediums).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 February 2017 - 03:58 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 February 2017 - 03:54 PM, said:

A Banshee has a boatload of free tonnage as well, enough so that it can spend 30% on an engine and still have significant firepower. Also, the standard for mediums isn't really that fast, it is pretty much just a hair above the formerly typical heavies ranging from a 255 to a 275 XL (cuz Hunchie IIC is still king of mediums).

Well the other thing you could count on, is that this will essentially nerf laser boats that had bonus agility from the large engine, and buff slower PPFLD/dakka mechs that only have tonnage for smaller engines. That's another way of looking at it.

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Gas Guzzler, on 28 February 2017 - 04:14 PM, said:

Well the other thing you could count on, is that this will essentially nerf laser boats that had bonus agility from the large engine

That's IF that laser boat could mount a large engine however. Think of the Supernovas man!

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 February 2017 - 06:43 PM, said:

That's IF that laser boat could mount a large engine however. Think of the Supernovas man!

True, but that's if PGI buffs the small engine cap mechs instead of nerfing the big engine cap mechs down to XL325 Supernova levels.

Judging by the "b-b-b-but assaults twist and turn as fast as mediums" crowd, that might be what the causal forum warrior would prefer. Maybe they will meet halfway in between...

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Gas Guzzler, on 01 March 2017 - 09:24 AM, said:

True, but that's if PGI buffs the small engine cap mechs instead of nerfing the big engine cap mechs down to XL325 Supernova levels.

Same could be said about simply buffing energy boats once agility is normalized between big and small engine cap laser boat assaults.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 March 2017 - 11:19 AM, said:

Same could be said about simply buffing energy boats once agility is normalized between big and small engine cap laser boat assaults.

Sure, but that's asking a lot of the current regime. I mean to buff laser boats would incite riots on the forums because they were OP 2 years ago currently with with their huge pinpoint alphas, I mean my Atlas with 50 rear CT armor shouldn't get cored from the front from one alpha from a Clan 65 tonner.