306 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

First of all, a repost from the announcement thread to ensure everyone is on the same page:

Spoiler

InnerSphereNews, on 20 February 2017 - 07:18 PM, said:

Disassociating ‘Mech Mobility Attributes from Engine Ratings

Engine selection has long been a balance sore-spot in MWO. Too much was gained by upgrading Engines to higher ratings, with little opportunity for providing a compelling give-and-take between the lighter, slower Engines against the heavier, faster Engines. The system also created a dynamic where baseline ‘Mech viability could be dramatically impacted by the inherent Engine restrictions of a 'Mech. These issues only compounded Inner Sphere and Clan imbalances, with Clan 'Mechs fielding much heavier Engines than their Inner Sphere counterparts - with no sacrifice to Loadout - due to fundamentally lighter equipment.



With the above issues in mind, we intend to break baseline Mobility characteristics away from Engines. Mobility will instead be determined by the overall tonnage of the chassis. It’s important to note that this will not affect the speed of a ‘Mech, which will remain tied with Engine size.
This change was specifically designed in the context of the Skill Tree, but was omitted from the first PTS as we continued to finalize some work required for implementing it. With that work complete, this system will be on full display in the upcoming PTS update.



At a top-down level, you can expect Mobility to now be roughly equal across tonnage lines. While their speeds will differ, an UrbanMech will now have the same Mobility attributes as an Arctic Cheetah, while a Kodiak will share the same Mobility attributes as an Atlas.



This change is not only intended to improve baseline balance between ‘Mechs, techbases, and Engines, but also to accomplish one of the stated design goals of the Skill Tree system. That is, to facilitate a drastic reduction in inherent ‘Mech Quirks.



As a result of this change we will be removing all of the current Mobility Quirks from Inner Sphere BattleMechs and Clan Center Torso OmniPods. Non-CT OmniPod and Set of 8 Mobility Quirks will remain.



Many ‘Mechs previously balanced around superior Mobility Quirks will instead see those Quirks integrated into the inherent Mobility attributes of the 'Mech. Those inherent Mobility attributes will then be evaluated and adjusted against similar 'Mechs within their tonnage bracket. For example, the Phoenix Hawk will be provided with higher baseline Mobility stats compared to the Blackjack.



This change allows for the following changes to the Skill Tree:


[indent]
• With Mobility Quirks now rolled into the base Mobility attributes of a ‘Mech, Skill Nodes will have greater influence over the final Mobility attributes of a ‘Mech when compared to their impact previously seen under the Quirk system.
• Creates greater value for Mobility-based Skill bonuses for ‘Mechs which possess naturally high Mobility attributes.
• Streamlines the influence of the Skill Tree on ‘Mech Mobility, providing more transparency within the MechLab in terms of how Skill Nodes influence the Mobility of a ‘Mech.[/indent]

People may recognize this as a highly controversial change championed by many Big Name players, as well as one condemned by many others. It's a big deal, and it's going to cause a pretty fierce fight in the next PTS session. Why?

Because with this one single stroke, Piranha will eliminate any engine rated higher than 250 from serious viable contention for anything but light 'Mechs, and even many of them (that have a choice) would likely hover around the 250 mark.

Now this has always been a very contentious statement, one bitterly disputed by people who want to see engines reduced to nothing but car motors, but it's hard to really dispute. Let us examine the facts:

• Engine upgrades are usually the single largest expenditure of free weight in a given 'Mech. It takes multiple tons, often a lot of them, to kick an engine up enough engine rating to matter.
  
• Larger 'Mechs, higher up on the engine scale, already often find it difficult to justify the increased expenditure of a larger engine. Upgrading from a 300 to a 350 is more than twice as impactful as upgrading from a 250 to a 300, and produces a lesser benefit in overall mobility.
  
• The only thing engine upgrades - again, the single largest expenditure of free weight in any given 'Mech fit-out - will buy in this new system is sheer footspeed and an occasional extra heat sink slot. else.
  
• There is currently no other way, beyond proposed Skilltree nodes, to modify a 'Mech's mobility and movement profile beyond engine swaps. 'Mechs with poor stock movement profiles are now hardlocked into those poor profiles.

This all points to the same overall conclusion: upgrading one's engine is enormously less valuable in a system where the only thing it buys you is raw footspeed - never the most critical part of an engine upgrade - and an occasional heat sink slot. With the ability to build for fast, high-mobility combat severely weakened and disrupted, but the ability to build for slow, Drednaught-y Supa Alphas or other excessive-firepower builds not impacted in the slightest, the 'MechLab balance will swing drastically in favor of overgunned slowbies. After all, overgunned slowbies will no longer have to worry about being outmaneuvered by a faster, more agile machine able to pick at their weaker flanks or rear - faster, more agile machines won't exist anymore.

This says nothing, of course, of the issues faced by OmniMechs, which will often be hardlocked into absolutely enormous engines they will no longer derive any significant benefit from. The 375XL in a Timber Wolf, for example, weighs 26.5 tons and as such expends fourteen tons over and above the minimum heat sink-required allocation of a 12.5t 250(XL)-rated engine. Those fourteen tons buy the Timber Wolf absolutely nothing save a few klicks of footspeed and some heat sink slots, while the Night Gyr's hardlocked 300XL only wastes three tons above the new optimal point without costing it a single point of mobility compared to the (theoretically, historically, but not actually) much more 'agile' Timber Wolf.

It is no longer possible to build "big medium" 'Mechs out of heavies up-engined at the cost of firepower. Same for ‘big lights’ or even ‘big heavies’. It’s no longer possible to try and shift off the basic boring baseline of your chassis' movement to try and create a different play experience for yourself - "up-armored [X]" 'Mechs are apparently anathema to MWO, despite being quite common in the original lore. Remember - a 75-ton 5/8 'Mech in TT had the exact same movement profile as a 20-ton 5/8 'Mech in TT. In this way, the current system is truer to tabletop lore - y'know, that thing everyone raves about all the time - than a system wherein all 'Mechs are permanently hardlocked into moving like crashed DropShips.

To help elucidate, a list of all the 'Mechs that are going to be significantly worse in a system where engine upgrades no longer buy anything meaningful:

• Victors
  
• Dragons
  
• Quickdraws
  
• All non-niPPCle Summoners
  
• All non-Bad Touch Bear Kodiaks
  
• Victors
  
• All Inner Sphere medium 'Mechs
  
• All Clan medium 'Mechs
  
• Victors
  
• Light 'Mechs not named Adder
  
• All Tetatae medium 'Mechs
  
• Timber Wolves (not that anyone cares)
  
• Linebackers
  
• Warhawks
  
• Gargoyles
  
• Victors
  
• Battlemasters
  
• Marauder IICs

Off the top of my head, at least. Pretty much anything that relied on being able to be more maneuverable than a Night Gyr, Bad Touch Bear, or Dire Whale is impacted to a greater or lesser degree by this change, while those handful of exceptionally slow, immensely overgunned hardlocked OmniMechs people used in moderation because they were very vulnerable to being outflanked are basically going to become unstoppable war gods because they no longer need fear anything being able to escape their staggering preponderance of guns.

Due to this, trench warfare and stagnant gameplay is going to become vastly more of a problem than it already is, as being able to build a mobile flanker able to quickly move about the battlefield and threaten entrenched positions is going to be immensely more difficult due to being unable to improve a 'Mech's mobility beyond its (poor) baseline values. If you thought Peek-N-Poke lasted too long and was frustrating to deal with before...

Honestly, I could go on for pages and pages about this, but you all get the idea by now. Far from 'Bringing Balance Back', this change will do nothing save eliminate mobile combat as a serious option in MWO. Because mobility is more than just raw derp-herding footspeed, and now we don't get any of it anymore.

Why, exactly, are people excited about this?

[Novakaine]

Hoorah for trench warfare!

[Andi Nagasia]

um dont 275+ engines get more internal Heat Sinks?
isnt that Space Saved + more Speed?

so big Engines go from being a necessity for all mechs to be viable,
to a trade off, Speed/Internal DHSs or more Tonnage, this brings STD and XL engines closer,
as well as tones down large C-XL engines, as they will not longer Twist like dradles?

[JC Daxion]

yes,, more engine heat sinks is another reason to put in a larger engine.. and so is speed.. Closing speed is a huge part of the game, as is getting in and around things. Flanking ect..

also peak and poke will still need the larger engines to not get hit..

there are lots of reasons outside of twisting to use a bigger engine.. Now at least you can choose, do i need more engine heat sinks, is this fast enough, can i add another weapon.. not.. my mech is totally usefless cause i can't even fight because engine is to small to not get totally destroyed because i twist slower than a grand-ma with a walker

[METAL SEPARATOR]

My King Crab chuckles.

[Andi Nagasia]

you assume that this will be a cross the board nerf to all mechs,
some mechs will go up some will come down,

if each mech has a base mobility per weight, that means TBRs will feel like Heavies not Mediums,
and mechs like the UM, KFX, ADR, VND, NVA, RFL, AWS, & SNV may have a better Chance,

this change can do more to level the playing field, between mechs,
a AS7 and a KDK will not behave similarly and it wont be a complete wash,

[1453 R]

JC Daxion, on 21 February 2017 - 08:27 AM, said:

yes,, more engine heat sinks is another reason to put in a larger engine.. and so is speed.. Closing speed is a huge part of the game, as is getting in and around things. Flanking ect..

also peak and poke will still need the larger engines to not get hit..

there are lots of reasons outside of twisting to use a bigger engine.. Now at least you can choose, do i need more engine heat sinks, is this fast enough, can i add another weapon.. not.. my mech is totally usefless cause i can't even fight because engine is to small to not get totally destroyed because i twist slower than a grand-ma with a walker

Turnspeed, twist speed, acceleration, deceleration, actual groundspeed. All part of a 'Mech's mobility profile.

The only way to adjust any of them is to upgrade or downgrade your engine.

Post-this-thing, there will be zero ways to adjust turnspeed, twist speed, acceleration, or deceleration. All of them will be hardlocked at "HAHAHA". At that point, raw footspeed is much less valuable, both of itself and because it can no longer be accompanied by commensurate increases in agility that allow a faster 'Mech to actually outmaneuver a slower one.

Yeah, twenty klicks can be an edge - but so can two extra PPCs, or an extra AC/20.

[Andi Nagasia]

MWn00b, on 21 February 2017 - 08:32 AM, said:

My King Crab chuckles.

my DWF saults your KGC, (NOW the KDK will Know MY pain,)

[JC Daxion]

1453 R, on 21 February 2017 - 08:36 AM, said:

Turnspeed, twist speed, acceleration, deceleration, actual groundspeed. All part of a 'Mech's mobility profile.

The only way to adjust any of them is to upgrade or downgrade your engine.

Post-this-thing, there will be zero ways to adjust turnspeed, twist speed, acceleration, or deceleration. All of them will be hardlocked at "HAHAHA". At that point, raw footspeed is much less valuable, both of itself and because it can no longer be accompanied by commensurate increases in agility that allow a faster 'Mech to actually outmaneuver a slower one.

Yeah, twenty klicks can be an edge - but so can two extra PPCs, or an extra AC/20.

Many ‘Mechs previously balanced around superior Mobility Quirks will instead see those Quirks integrated into the inherent Mobility attributes of the 'Mech. Those inherent Mobility attributes will then be evaluated and adjusted against similar 'Mechs within their tonnage bracket. For example, the Phoenix Hawk will be provided with higher baseline Mobility stats compared to the Blackjack.


This change allows for the following changes to the Skill Tree:


• With Mobility Quirks now rolled into the base Mobility attributes of a ‘Mech, Skill Nodes will have greater influence over the final Mobility attributes of a ‘Mech when compared to their impact previously seen under the Quirk system.
• Creates greater value for Mobility-based Skill bonuses for ‘Mechs which possess naturally high Mobility attributes.
• Streamlines the influence of the Skill Tree on ‘Mech Mobility, providing more transparency within the MechLab in terms of how Skill Nodes influence the Mobility of a ‘Mech


Seeing we don't know how they are going to be adapting the all this, what you posted is complete speculation. As you can see directly from the notes.. two mechs, same weight are different.. So we have no idea how all this will actually be, and how trees will effect it till we play..

It also stats that things will be adjusted as well, which is why quirks are being removed and rolled into base stats to check baselines, before adjusts. All 50 ton mechs are not going to be the same.. But all 50 ton HBK's will turn the same, that is about all we know

Edited by JC Daxion, 21 February 2017 - 08:43 AM.

[WarHippy]

1453 R, on 21 February 2017 - 08:36 AM, said:

Turnspeed, twist speed, acceleration, deceleration, actual groundspeed. All part of a 'Mech's mobility profile.

The only way to adjust any of them is to upgrade or downgrade your engine.

Post-this-thing, there will be zero ways to adjust turnspeed, twist speed, acceleration, or deceleration. All of them will be hardlocked at "HAHAHA". At that point, raw footspeed is much less valuable, both of itself and because it can no longer be accompanied by commensurate increases in agility that allow a faster 'Mech to actually outmaneuver a slower one.

Yeah, twenty klicks can be an edge - but so can two extra PPCs, or an extra AC/20.

You just need to accept that there is a contingent of players here that want everyone to only play lights and mediums(because reasons) and they feel the best solution is to make heavies and assaults unbearably frustrating to play. Then there is another group(with some crossover from the first group) that feels the best simulation experience entails cement boots, sandbags tied to their arms, and poor performance.

[MacClearly]

The excitement is because a 55 ton mech is going to twist and turn well even if it has a lower engine rating. It will have a 55 ton mech maneuverability profile. So you won't need to sacrifice firepower for being able to move and turn. You will just get more speed with a bigger engine. This makes a lot of sense. Engines in cars (you brought up the analogy) are not what makes the car turn better.

You seem to allude that all mechs are going to be less maneuverable, which is not the case. All will be able to change their mobility in the skill tree to improve but at the cost of reducing other areas.

The main thing PGI appears to be doing is also balance. They say as much. So an IS mech will not be completely out twisted and turned by a Clan mech of equal tonnage because of engine size. That sounds like a very good change.

[Metus regem]

1453 R, on 21 February 2017 - 08:36 AM, said:

Turnspeed, twist speed, acceleration, deceleration, actual groundspeed. All part of a 'Mech's mobility profile.

The only way to adjust any of them is to upgrade or downgrade your engine.

Post-this-thing, there will be zero ways to adjust turnspeed, twist speed, acceleration, or deceleration. All of them will be hardlocked at "HAHAHA". At that point, raw footspeed is much less valuable, both of itself and because it can no longer be accompanied by commensurate increases in agility that allow a faster 'Mech to actually outmaneuver a slower one.

Yeah, twenty klicks can be an edge - but so can two extra PPCs, or an extra AC/20.

Twist speed, turn speed, acceleration and deceleration should never have been tied to engine size to begin with.

Twist speed will be limited by the size of the motors being used to turn the torso with in the range of motion it has.

Turn speed should be effected by both mass and velocity of the mech in question.

Acceleration should be effected by the mass and strength of the myomers of the mech in question.

Deceleration should be effected by the mass, strength of the myomers and velocity of the mech in question.

The Engine in a mech provided electricity to power all of the systems, all of the systems have a set operating voltage as well as electricity consumption rate.

[Acehilator]

Tabloid newspaper thread title/headline much? You want to run a 100t with less than 300 rating? Or any assault mech, for that matter?

[Y E O N N E]

I have zero intention of dropping my engines any lower than they currently are because:

A.) I chose them for the run speed and internal sinks
B.) Clan Omniscare still going to be running fast, for the most part, and
C.) Getting left behind sucks.

This change is very good, jyst depends on what PGI chooses to gift each 'Mech with.

[Bilbo]

Acehilator, on 21 February 2017 - 08:47 AM, said:

Tabloid newspaper thread title/headline much? You want to run a 100t with less than 300 rating? Or any assault mech, for that matter?

That would just be asking to be wolfpacked...over and over again. Not a good idea.

[RoadblockXL]

Someone is seriously undervaluing speed and good positioning.

Most matches already revolve around staying in cover and poking. Turn speed, twist speed, acceleration, and deceleration mean very little in those situations. What matters is your ability to reach your firing position before the other team gets there, which is dependent on your top speed.

Boating firepower doesn't mean crap if you can't reach cover before the other team is on top of you and no amount of baseline twist speed or turn rate will save you.

[C E Dwyer]

People have been calling out for this since closed beta, now P.G.I have finally changed it, people are still raging o.O

Reason to put bigger engine in, is to keep up and not be left behind, to get somewhere faster, to close down distance quicker.

[Wintersdark]

Andi Nagasia, on 21 February 2017 - 08:24 AM, said:

um dont 275+ engines get more internal Heat Sinks?
isnt that Space Saved + more Speed?

so big Engines go from being a necessity for all mechs to be viable,
to a trade off, Speed/Internal DHSs or more Tonnage, this brings STD and XL engines closer,
as well as tones down large C-XL engines, as they will not longer Twist like dradles?

The heat sink slots are incredibly valuable for energy based mechs. That's exactly where the low-tonnage/high heat lasers benefit the most; as it's often hard to physically mount enough heat sinks.

If heavies, on average, move slower in the future, and are less agile? That's not a bad thing. As things stand, this is one of the weight class balance issues with MWO: Heavies can be (and thus are) agile enough that there's no real gain at lower weight classes. That puts the bulk of heavies where they are supposed to be and allows those that are faster to shine in that role.

Also, to address the Great List Of Beleagured Mechs in the OP:

The announcement thread already stated directly that mechs which rely on agility now to be competitive will have higher mobility stats baked into their baseline profiles. So, you can't really claim the Dragon (for example) will be worse off in the new system than they are now. With better baseline stats, they can choose to be more agile and the same speed, or more agile and faster. I'd still mount a 300 rated engine in a Dragon (which is what I'd mount now, most of the time) because ground speed IS a valuable attribute.


On the other hand, choosing to mount a smaller engine is less of a penalty with the new system. You give up ground speed, get more room for weaponry. Currently, choosing to do that gets you more room for weaponry that also performs worse, as it's harder to bring your guns on target with reducing mobility, not to mention the reduced room for heat dissipation/capacity both of which limit damage output on most builds.

So, going "turret" in current MWO is basically a non-starter most of the time as you sacrifice not just ground speed for more guns, but also the ability to USE those guns effectively. Running a slower mech SHOULD be a viable option.

[1453 R]

JC Daxion, on 21 February 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

...
Seeing we don't know how they are going to be adapting the all this, what you posted is complete spectulaion

Skilltree adjustments are a wash, since they can be taken by everything. Because they can be taken by everything, they just become a new baseline, not anything like an actual edge. The mobility Skilltree nodes become the new 'bigger engine' Bogeyman because they become required to hit the (significantly lower) mobility baseline, and furthermore they cannot be used to different between 'naturally fast/agile' 'Mechs a'la the Linebacker/Ferret, or other overengined machines that are taking it squarely in the exhaust ports this update, or 'naturally gun-heavy' 'Mechs like the Gyr, Bear, or Whale.

Homogenization Ho.

Andi Nagasia, on 21 February 2017 - 08:36 AM, said:

you assume that this will be a cross the board nerf to all mechs,
some mechs will go up some will come down,

if each mech has a base mobility per weight, that means TBRs will feel like Heavies not Mediums,
and mechs like the UM, KFX, ADR, VND, NVA, RFL, AWS, & SNV may have a better Chance,

this change can do more to level the playing field, between mechs,
a AS7 and a KDK will not behave similarly and it wont be a complete wash,

If a Timber Wolf spends over a third of its tonnage on a gigantic engine, shouldn't it logically have better movement than a 'Mech that spends barely a quarter of its weight on an engine, like ohh, say...the Night Gyr?

If someone wants to stuff a big honkin' 350+ engine in their Shadow Hawk or whatever, make a zippy outrider, shouldn't they be allowed to actually do that thing? Yeah, 'Mechs with low max engine ratings will benefit from all the biggah-engine'd guys no longer actually deriving benefit from those engines, but is that really the right way to pull those slowbies up?

Metus regem, on 21 February 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

Twist speed, turn speed, acceleration and deceleration should never have been tied to engine size to begin with.

Twist speed will be limited by the size of the motors being used to turn the torso with in the range of motion it has.

Turn speed should be effected by both mass and velocity of the mech in question.

Acceleration should be effected by the mass and strength of the myomers of the mech in question.

Deceleration should be effected by the mass, strength of the myomers and velocity of the mech in question.

The Engine in a mech provided electricity to power all of the systems, all of the systems have a set operating voltage as well as electricity consumption rate.

Great!

Now point me to the tab in the 'Mechlab where I can adjust what myomer rig I'm using or what sort of actuator system I'm stuffing in my 'Mech.

If you're going to go with the "your engine is a powerplant not an engine" argument, then tell me where in the 'MechLab you can find the stuff to adjust what messing with the engine currently allows you to do.

Acehilator, on 21 February 2017 - 08:47 AM, said:

Tabloid newspaper thread title/headline much? You want to run a 100t with less than 300 rating? Or any assault mech, for that matter?

Why not?

No, seriously - why not? Post-this-system, your assault 'Mechs won't be any easier or harder to flank based on engine sizes. They'll all act like Dire Whales whether they have a 400 or a 100 in them, so why not double down on the Assault-ness, strip down to a 250 for weight, and max out shooting power? You're not losing anything when you do, fatbros are already glacially slow in the first place.

What are you actually losing out on?

[Metus regem]

1453 R, on 21 February 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

Great!

Now point me to the tab in the 'Mechlab where I can adjust what myomer rig I'm using or what sort of actuator system I'm stuffing in my 'Mech.

If you're going to go with the "your engine is a powerplant not an engine" argument, then tell me where in the 'MechLab you can find the stuff to adjust what messing with the engine currently allows you to do.

To all of that I say, take it up with PGI and being lazy with their lack implementing different brands of equipment. Not to mention their lack of implementing non combat systems....