90 replies to this topic

[Tlords]

There is a saying that "Physics is a *****."

Here's the problem... Today, the best jump sniping mechs in the game are Hunchback II-Cs, Night Gyrs, Blackjacks, and Summoners. I might be missing a few other mechs - yet when you look at these mechs they have one of two things in common.

1. Either high mounted torso weapons or...
2. High mounted arm weapons with no lower arm actuators.

Yet something is amiss with the physics... A Phoenix Hawk firing a PPC has its lower arm actuator and the upper arm actuator working in concert to absorb the recoil. A Hunchback II-C with high mounted ERPPCs has nothing similar. You could argue and say, it has a recoil chamber built into the ERPPC housing, yet it would not be as effective as the same recoil chamber, paired within an arm with a upper and lower arm actuator. I'd like to see these mechs with lower mounted weapons be better jump snipers over those with high-mounted weapons.

So here is my thought on how to address it. And what is my crazy idea idea to do this... heat of course. Its the great mechwarrior/battletech equalizer.

If you are like the Phoenix Hawk and firing ballistic weapons from your arms. There is no change and no penalties.

If you are like the Hunchback II-C, when you fire during your jump or coming down after your jump - your mech compensates for the recoil by venting an intense and short burst of super heated air. The heat coming from this is equivalent to the pin-point-damage (PPD) damage the ballistic/ppc does. Fire a gauss - generate 15 additional heat. Fire a PPC or ERPPC, generate 10 additional heat.

This turns jump sniping into an option for mechs with superior weapons placement. Not the primary option. It also brings in physics.

I'm sure there are other ideas to counter the current the jump sniping kings.

What are yours?

[PlayerUnknown]

just torso always torso.

[FupDup]

JayRtech, on 25 February 2017 - 07:50 PM, said:

just torso always torso.

A lot of the poptarts of past and present use arm weapons. The trick is to toggle on arm lock to synchronize your arm and torso guns during the jump.

[Mcgral18]

If we didn't have 4G, mechs wouldn't fall as fast, making poptarts juicy targets
But, our Gundams feel too floaty of that happens, supposedly.


Heat is a terrible solution, I'm afraid. We already have high normal heat, and low Spooky Heat thresholds.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Tlords, on 25 February 2017 - 07:45 PM, said:

Here's the problem... Today, the best jump sniping mechs in the game are Hunchback II-Cs, Night Gyrs, Blackjacks, and Summoners.

Why is this a problem?

[Khobai]

The problem isnt that some mechs are better at jump sniping than others. The problem is that jump sniping still exists in the first place. Reticle shake needs to be changed so the reticle keeps shaking until the mech touches the ground again

jump sniping has never been a positive addition to the game at any point in this games history. so why continue to allow it at all?

From what I understand its also mentioned in the novels that shooting accurately while jumping is virtually impossible. And I know in battletech theres a hefty accuracy penalty whenever you use jumpjets. So it really shouldnt be allowed in MWO for a multitude of reasons.

Edited by Khobai, 25 February 2017 - 08:16 PM.

[Tlords]

Rouken Vordermark, on 25 February 2017 - 08:04 PM, said:

Why is this a problem?

The problem is they are too good at it. I can rack up 6 kills and sometimes break 900+ damage in a Hunchback II-C. It's an order of magnitude better than my ERPPC Pheonix Hawk with ECM.

High mounted weapons = minimum exposure time = better than mechs with arm mounted weapons.

[Tlords]

Khobai, on 25 February 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:

The problem isnt that some mechs are better at jump sniping than others. The problem is that jump sniping still exists in the first place. Reticle shake needs to be changed so the reticle keeps shaking until the mech touches the ground again

jump sniping has never been a positive addition to the game at any point in this games history. so why continue to allow it at all?

I can stand behind this - IMHO jump sniping is too easy as it is implemented.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 25 February 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:

And I know in battletech theres a hefty accuracy penalty whenever you use jumpjets.

It isn't hefty, it is only 1 more than running (which is 50% more but meh). The problem is just exposure levels, if JJs were floaty like they were in MW4, you wouldn't actually have as much of a problem with poptarts.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 February 2017 - 08:18 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Tlords, on 25 February 2017 - 08:09 PM, said:

The problem is they are too good at it. I can rack up 6 kills and sometimes break 900+ damage in a Hunchback II-C. It's an order of magnitude better than my ERPPC Pheonix Hawk with ECM.

High mounted weapons = minimum exposure time = better than mechs with arm mounted weapons.

...C?

You mean the A, right?
And obviously, it's also because the A is a good robot, while the PHawk is far from that.

[Khobai]

Quote

It isn't hefty, it is only 1 more than running (which is 50% more but meh).

+4 for long range
+3 for jumping

its a +7 penalty to snipe at long range while jumping

so yeah its hefty

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 25 February 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

+4 for long range
+3 for jumping

its a +7 penalty to snipe at long range while jumping

so yeah its hefty

I like how you add +4 for long range like it is somehow different.

+7 for jumping vs +6 for running, so no, it really isn't that hefty comparatively.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 February 2017 - 08:19 PM.

[ice trey]

Jump sniping is a thing again? Goddamn. That's the main reason I hated playing Mechwarrior 4 multiplayer. The whole game devolved into humping a hill and taking the biggest jump capable unit, putting the most long ranged pinpoint damage into a target, often dropping an atlas in one or two volleys. It was better to play the single player component over and over again. Better to watch one good movie, put it down, and come back to it, than play a never-ending stream of video game equivalent of Honey Boo Boo.

We came close to fixing the problem with stuff like cockpit shaking, but then people started complaining about motion sickness. To this day, I still wonder how many actually did, and how many were just pulling excuses out of their butts in order to keep using the same tactics they'd begged PGI so hard to include the Victor and Highlander for.

Edited by ice trey, 25 February 2017 - 08:21 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I like how you add +4 for long range like it is somehow different.

+7 for jumping vs +6 for running, so no, it really isn't that hefty comparatively.

ok so youre saying it should be harder to run and shoot at long range too. id be okay with that as well.

jumpsniping and running full speed while sniping are both too easy. long range weapons have always been highly abusive in MWO because they dont have any penalties for using them at their long range like they do in tabletop.

and then theres also the fact that jumpsniping is more abusive in MWO compared to battletech because you can limit your mechs exposure. Where in battletech you cant jump out from cover, shoot, and jump back into cover all in the same turn. so jumpsniping in mwo needs to be penalized more or preferably just outright removed from the game.

Edited by Khobai, 25 February 2017 - 08:27 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 25 February 2017 - 08:23 PM, said:

ok so youre saying it should be harder to run and shoot at long range too.

Wow, you are really off today Khobai, been taking lessons from 1438R on misrepresenting people's argument and putting words in people's mouth?

Khobai, on 25 February 2017 - 08:23 PM, said:

jumpsniping and running full speed while sniping are both too easy.

It's not about how easy it is, it is about how effective it is.

Khobai, on 25 February 2017 - 08:23 PM, said:

and then theres also the fact that jumpsniping is more abusive in MWO compared to battletech because you can limit your mechs exposure.

So you can't jump behind 50% cover like water or 1 level elevation higher parts in TT? Sure you can't limit exposure quite like you can MWO, but there are similar situations.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 February 2017 - 08:29 PM.

[Snowbluff]

Your complaints are about recoil on a particle weapon (WTF? Where's the all the mass you need to push a mech weighing in tons?) and not conservation of momentum (rounds should retain the mech's momentum). I think "physics" should be stricken from the title.

Edited by Snowbluff, 25 February 2017 - 08:34 PM.

[Tarogato]

Khobai, on 25 February 2017 - 08:23 PM, said:

ok so youre saying it should be harder to run and shoot at long range too. id be okay with that as well.

It already is that way in MWO. Why do you think so many scrubs stop dead when they shoot? And at long range, the apparent magnitude of the target is smaller, so it's harder to hit them.

[Clanner Scum]

There's nothing wrong with jump sniping as it is. The mechs that do it well do it well because they stand out from the other mechs. If you want to jump snipe, then get a mech that does it well instead of complaining about it.

[Tlords]

Snowbluff, on 25 February 2017 - 08:33 PM, said:

Your complaints are about recoil on a particle weapon (WTF? Where's the all the mass you need to push a mech weighing in tons?) and not conservation of momentum (rounds should retain the mech's momentum). I think "physics" should be stricken from the title.

I believe your wrong about PPCs not having recoil. Its the only energy weapon that does. The quote is from SARNA.net

"The Particle Projector Cannon (or PPC) is a unique energy weapon. PPCs fire a concentrated stream of protons or ions at a target, causing damage through both thermal and kinetic energy. Despite being an energy weapon, it produces recoil."

Edited by Tlords, 25 February 2017 - 08:43 PM.

[Tlords]

Clanner Scum, on 25 February 2017 - 08:36 PM, said:

There's nothing wrong with jump sniping as it is. The mechs that do it well do it well because they stand out from the other mechs. If you want to jump snipe, then get a mech that does it well instead of complaining about it.

I'm curious about your thoughts on this. Why should a Blackjack be a better jump sniper than a Phoenix Hawk or Vindicator?

Please tell me more on your thoughts on this....

Edited by Tlords, 25 February 2017 - 08:46 PM.