90 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

MacClearly, on 26 February 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

You were right about coil guns and recoil and there's some interesting articles on why (forget the name of applicable law) but since particles have mass I think the same law applies. On sarna it actually says ppc's are only energy weapon with recoil.

It does. You and I are on the same page.

At the most basic level, it's just Newton's First Third Law in action.

Edit: got my first and third laws mixed up. Oops.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 27 February 2017 - 09:18 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Mcgral18, on 25 February 2017 - 08:02 PM, said:

If we didn't have 4G, mechs wouldn't fall as fast, making poptarts juicy targets
But, our Gundams feel too floaty of that happens, supposedly.


Heat is a terrible solution, I'm afraid. We already have high normal heat, and low Spooky Heat thresholds.

I really wished they would play with the gravity settings instead of sticking to one setting.

[Tlords]

In MWO when you hit a mech with a PPC in its torso, it pivots. Same as hitting it when an AC-10 or Gauss. Newton's third law in action. Because the mech's torso moves by the PPC equal force would apply to the mech firing the PPC. Hence recoil the!

Thus if you fire a PPC while in the air without something to compensate for the recoil, it would impart movement on the mech in the air.

The answers I'm looking for is a good way to address this recoil that makes sense from the physics standpoint.

Some great ideas so far:

1. Heat spikes from jump jets compensating the spin put on the mech by recoil inducing weapons.
2. Spinning your mech - causing it to crash down if you don't have enough jump jet thrust to compensate (I would love to see this animation).
3. Convergence

What other blue sky (thanks Bishop Steiner) ideas are out there...

[1Grimbane]

Tarl Cabot, on 26 February 2017 - 01:47 PM, said:

I really wished they would play with the gravity settings instead of sticking to one setting.

THIS SO MUCH. DO IT PGI PTS WITH GRAVITY SETTINGS

[Foxwalker]

Khobai, on 25 February 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:

The problem isnt that some mechs are better at jump sniping than others. The problem is that jump sniping still exists in the first place. Reticle shake needs to be changed so the reticle keeps shaking until the mech touches the ground again jump sniping has never been a positive addition to the game at any point in this games history. so why continue to allow it at all? From what I understand its also mentioned in the novels that shooting accurately while jumping is virtually impossible. And I know in battletech theres a hefty accuracy penalty whenever you use jumpjets. So it really shouldnt be allowed in MWO for a multitude of reasons.

The Novels are full of mis-information. Jump sniping is a valid tactic in the game and should be. Many other avenues for how the game should work are not implemented, for example, Death from Above, Melee and collision damage. Some mechs designed for a purpose can not be used the initial way the original designers intended. For example, Highlander supposed to be a Death from above dealer and obviously it cannot be used that way here. Dragons and Chargers were clearly intended to be made for speed collision damage dealers.

Many mechs have a fare amount of tonnage devoted to Jump Jets, yet the mechanic is so reduced as to make those mechs relatively ineffective. The Victor is a good example of a nearly mothballed mech due to the JJ nerf bat. The speed and height not only stopped quite a bit of the pop-tart process but made mechs that should have more maneuverability due to them were made unable to perform reasonably. I used to love the Victor as a jump capable brawler, not as a pop-tart. Similarly with the Shadow Hawk. The molasses feel in those mechs make them no longer viable that way. They lost that nimble quality and became much harder to use. Much of the finesse of the game was lost then, I believe. Much of the game has devolved to who can dish out the most pinpoint damage faster, making high alpha tanks more effective than most other ways to play.

Some lights and a few mediums can still be used with finesse, but the majority of Heavies and Assaults not so much. Some assaults and heavy mechs were designed with maneuverability, over high alpha. Summoner is a good example. PGI quirked the hell out of it to get that balance though.Not all Mechs that should get that boost have it.

[Albino Boo]

Tlords, on 25 February 2017 - 09:20 PM, said:

The P in PPC stands for particle. These Particles have mass, accelerated to near the speed of light. This generates lots of heat, this is why they are so hot to use. The damage on the receiving end is ballistic...

Physics 101

- Newton's Second Law: Force = mass x acceleration (F=ma)
- Newton's Third Law: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Tiny mass (times) huge acceleration getting the particles to near the light speed = insane force... thus large recoil.

If you want to use real world physics each proton would the energy of 4x10^-7j . Therefore 1 gram of protons energy would be 6x10²³ x 4x10^-7 = 2.4x10¹⁷j or roughly equivalent to 9 gigatons of TNT. Don't use real world arguments in Battletech, they just dont work.

Edited by Albino Boo, 27 February 2017 - 07:25 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Mcgral18, on 25 February 2017 - 08:02 PM, said:

If we didn't have 4G, mechs wouldn't fall as fast, making poptarts juicy targets
But, our Gundams feel too floaty of that happens, supposedly.
Heat is a terrible solution, I'm afraid. We already have high normal heat, and low Spooky Heat thresholds.

Agreed on both counts. Also, if our mechs didn't fall so fast, jump jets would be more useful for long distance jumps and maneuvers, whereas now everyone is basically just... well, poptarting. Small jumps up and down, because that's the only thing you can do in a game with the gravity of a neutron star.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 25 February 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:

The problem isnt that some mechs are better at jump sniping than others. The problem is that jump sniping still exists in the first place. Reticle shake needs to be changed so the reticle keeps shaking until the mech touches the ground again

So we should remove a viable playstyle for arbitrary reasons? Yeah, no. When you can come up with actual reasoning why jump sniping shouldn't exist other than your simple opinion, we'll talk.

Table top and novels aren't good reasons for why it shouldn't exist, and fall under the opinion category.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 27 February 2017 - 07:49 AM.

[Mystere]

Oh! I missed this one.

Tlords, on 25 February 2017 - 09:20 PM, said:

The P in PPC stands for particle. These Particles have mass, accelerated to near the speed of light. This generates lots of heat, this is why they are so hot to use. The damage on the receiving end is ballistic...

Physics 101

- Newton's Second Law: Force = mass x acceleration (F=ma)
- Newton's Third Law: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Tiny mass (times) huge acceleration getting the particles to near the light speed = insane force... thus large recoil.

Ahem! Our PPCs don't shoot anywhere near the speed of light. We have them at 1200-1300 m/s.

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

Foxwalker, on 26 February 2017 - 03:52 PM, said:

The Novels are full of mis-information. Jump sniping is a valid tactic in the game and should be. Many other avenues for how the game should work are not implemented, for example, Death from Above, Melee and collision damage. Some mechs designed for a purpose can not be used the initial way the original designers intended. For example, Highlander supposed to be a Death from above dealer and obviously it cannot be used that way here. Dragons and Chargers were clearly intended to be made for speed collision damage dealers.

Many mechs have a fare amount of tonnage devoted to Jump Jets, yet the mechanic is so reduced as to make those mechs relatively ineffective. The Victor is a good example of a nearly mothballed mech due to the JJ nerf bat. The speed and height not only stopped quite a bit of the pop-tart process but made mechs that should have more maneuverability due to them were made unable to perform reasonably. I used to love the Victor as a jump capable brawler, not as a pop-tart. Similarly with the Shadow Hawk. The molasses feel in those mechs make them no longer viable that way. They lost that nimble quality and became much harder to use. Much of the finesse of the game was lost then, I believe. Much of the game has devolved to who can dish out the most pinpoint damage faster, making high alpha tanks more effective than most other ways to play.

Some lights and a few mediums can still be used with finesse, but the majority of Heavies and Assaults not so much. Some assaults and heavy mechs were designed with maneuverability, over high alpha. Summoner is a good example. PGI quirked the hell out of it to get that balance though.Not all Mechs that should get that boost have it.

Funniest thing I've ever seen in MWOnline was a zombie mech desperation trying to bag the last kill. He tried a DFA and landed successfully on the opponent only to die. He had legs in crit and took the risk but it was funny as hell to watch.

[Khobai]

Quote

So we should remove a viable playstyle for arbitrary reasons? Yeah, no. When you can come up with actual reasoning why jump sniping shouldn't exist other than your simple opinion, we'll talk.

being abusive is not an arbitrary reason. jumpsniping has never been fun. cutting it out of the game is like removing a cancerous tumor. the entire game would be healthier as a result.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 27 February 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

being abusive is not an arbitrary reason.

Is it always abusive though? If hill humping or side poking were the better option, would it be a problem if things tried to jump snipe?

Just because it is abusive in its current form does not mean it is always "abusive"

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 February 2017 - 12:45 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 27 February 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

being abusive is not an arbitrary reason. jumpsniping has never been fun. cutting it out of the game is like removing a cancerous tumor. the entire game would be healthier as a result.

If we simply removed anything that was ever abused in this game, what would be left? IS small lasers?

[Tlords]

Mystere, on 27 February 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

Ahem! Our PPCs don't shoot anywhere near the speed of light. We have them at 1200-1300 m/s.

OH... I agree. A small particle of mass accelerated to near light speed has incredible force. Less speed, bigger mass = same effect. The plasma ball in MWO from a PPC is the size of of an AC10 round.

Those particles have mass traveling at 1200-1300 m/s. Thus they have impact. Thus they cause recoil.

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 February 2017 - 01:58 PM, said:

If we simply removed anything that was ever abused in this game, what would be left? IS small lasers?

RIP Slunchback

Uh...MGs?
They were nerfed, but never particularly abused
Or AC10s
They've always been mediocre

[Gas Guzzler]

Tlords, on 27 February 2017 - 03:08 PM, said:

OH... I agree. A small particle of mass accelerated to near light speed has incredible force. Less speed, bigger mass = same effect. The plasma ball in MWO from a PPC is the size of of an AC10 round.

Those particles have mass traveling at 1200-1300 m/s. Thus they have impact. Thus they cause recoil.

KE (read: recoil/impact energy) = 1/2*m*v^2

What is the mass of a PPC bolt? Just because it is the size of an AC10 round doesn't mean it is the same weight.

Given that the PPC doesn't use ammo, the mass of a PPC bolt must be very small as the mech firing it does not just create matter everytime it fires it, therefore its recoil likely wouldn't be very large.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 27 February 2017 - 03:30 PM.

[Revis Volek]

Tlords, on 25 February 2017 - 08:17 PM, said:

I can stand behind this - IMHO jump sniping is too easy as it is implemented.

Then what do you think should be done with LRMS and STREAKS?


They are far more easier to shoot then jump sniping with PPC's, which honesty in this game is one of the harder things to get good with.

Gas Guzzler, on 27 February 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

KE (read: recoil/impact energy) = 1/2*m*v^2

What is the mass of a PPC bolt? Just because it is the size of an AC10 round doesn't mean it is the same weight.

Given that the PPC doesn't use ammo, the mass of a PPC bolt must be very small as the mech firing it does not just create matter everytime it fires it, therefore its recoil likely wouldn't be very large.

I would say none for all intents and purposes or very little. Lasers in this scenario are not really much different and i can assure you they have no recoil. I have 3 C02 laser cutting and engraving machines at my shop and they dont have recoil when they fire a beam of light at 500 degrees F.

Not that they are the same but i can imagine they both would have similar results with the PPC being a bit more flashy.

Edited by Revis Volek, 27 February 2017 - 03:56 PM.

[Foxwalker]

Khobai, on 27 February 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

being abusive is not an arbitrary reason. jumpsniping has never been fun. cutting it out of the game is like removing a cancerous tumor. the entire game would be healthier as a result.

I respect your opinion, but don't agree. You may not like the tactic, but many do. Reasonably, there are a group of mechs pretty much designed around the ability to move jump and shoot at the same time. Mostly as they are locked into lower weapon alphas, they have to depend on that "finesse mechanic to be be competitive.

I would say the Viper, Vindicator, Huntsman, Summoner and Panther fit that category. Taking away the mechanic would make them much less viable. Note, most of these carry far fewer weapons than other mechs and many are locked into devoting large amounts of tonnage to Jump Jets.

Everyone likes to play it "their" way. The reason I love to play is creating a unique way to outfit and play a mech that may be different than someone else.

We all love the story around the Yen Lo Wang and how Kai tricked the other fighter with his AC20 build. That is what this game is about.

Edited by Foxwalker, 27 February 2017 - 03:53 PM.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 27 February 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

being abusive is not an arbitrary reason. jumpsniping has never been fun. cutting it out of the game is like removing a cancerous tumor. the entire game would be healthier as a result.

At best that is an opinion, so don't pass it off as some definitive fact. I myself pretty much enjoyed shooting those clay pigeons -- or died trying. Nowadays -- when am even bothered to play, anyway -- I am sometimes that clay pigeon.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 February 2017 - 12:44 PM, said:

Is it always abusive though? If hill humping or side poking were the better option, would it be a problem if things tried to jump snipe?

Just because it is abusive in its current form does not mean it is always "abusive"

I find the constant AlphaWarriorOnline gameplay quite abusive/exploitative. As such I probably should start calling for the removal of that by demanding forced chain fire of any and all weapons.

[Y E O N N E]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 February 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

KE (read: recoil/impact energy) = 1/2*m*v^2

What is the mass of a PPC bolt? Just because it is the size of an AC10 round doesn't mean it is the same weight.

Given that the PPC doesn't use ammo, the mass of a PPC bolt must be very small as the mech firing it does not just create matter everytime it fires it, therefore its recoil likely wouldn't be very large.

Bruh, am disappoint.

Recoil is all about kinetic energy and Newton's Third Law. Am I releasing 10 MJ of kinetic energy? Am I releasing it in a split second? Then it doesn't matter how massive the projectile is, because you are going to feel it kick back. A dense stream of protons accelerated to near light-speed for a discharge of 10 MJ would have the same system energy as a 5-inch shell from a 5/54 Mk. 48. Recoil would be identical if the discharge occurred over the same interval. You'd also probably get a nice thunder-clap from the PPC beam as the air around the beam is explosively superheated.

As for where it gets its mass to accelerate, who knows. It could just be a store of hydrogen whose capacity is large enough that there is no reasonable expectation that you'd deplete it during battle. Or it could just ionize particles taken from the atmosphere.