48 replies to this topic

[meteorol]

Bush Hopper, on 26 February 2017 - 01:16 AM, said:

You really judge people by their leaderboard scores? What a mistake.
I saw some of those heroes using their comrades as meatshields and stuff like this. I prefer someone who pushes with me and ends up with a lower score than one of those guys because he is more valuable for the team.
Then there are things like leveling mechs, potato teams and many other factors to consider which lower scores.

I surely do, and imo, it's far from a mistake.

It's not about lower score or higher score. It's about a combination of all stats over all seasons someone played. When seeing someone who pushes with you, that might aswell won the one particular match you were in. But that is just a single match. But if you are looking at all leaderboard seasons someone has played, you can see how well they are doing on average.

If someone averages a w/l below 1.0 on a k/d below 1.0 with a low average matchscore over a span of like 1000 matches, it's pretty save to say he isn't helping his team to win. Someone who does that basically is a liability to his team. You wouldn't notice by playing a few matches alongside of him, because in those matches his approach might work very well. What you don't see is all those games that don't work out well, which are represented in the stats though.

[Battlemaster56]

El Bandito, on 26 February 2017 - 01:44 AM, said:

That's his choice, same reason when people pick Symmetra on attack mode on Overwatch. He is not breaking CoC or anything. You can suggest him a better build or tactics, but that's about it. If you want less derpy Assaults, then pilot one yourself.

After all, isn't it completely natural for potatoes to prefer Assault mechs so that they can potate a bit longer in a match without dying?

It's not it purely selffish, and counter productive that someone want to simply survive. If they want they play with their share armor make harder for the enemy to take you all down while under focus fire. Not sit back for minutes unend just waiting for locks or stay far as possible from getting hit by a stray erll from max range and hide like a gutless coward.

Zergling, on 26 February 2017 - 01:46 AM, said:

It's not selfish to use their stupidity to your advantage, when that advantage can mitigate the damage their stupidity does to the team and help you win the battle.

Example: team camping in a bad position? Then you can likely predict the locations the enemy will shoot your team from, and therefore position yourself to where you will have advantage over those enemies.

Another example: team pushing against a strong enemy firing line? Hang back, let your idiot teammates absorb enemy fire and shoot the enemy mechs that are busy shooting your teammates.
If enemies are shooting your teammates, then they aren't shooting you, giving you freedom to shoot as you please.

I rather them to half a shred of common sense while setting up at a better position, and using that for our advantage them be selffish and use my team as nothing as dumb ai, if I want that I go on my ps4 and play dbxv2 and do parrel quest.

[Weeny Machine]

meteorol, on 26 February 2017 - 01:54 AM, said:

I surely do, and imo, it's far from a mistake.

It's not about lower score or higher score. It's about a combination of all stats over all seasons someone played. When seeing someone who pushes with you, that might aswell won the one particular match you were in. But that is just a single match. But if you are looking at all leaderboard seasons someone has played, you can see how well they are doing on average.

If someone averages a w/l below 1.0 on a k/d below 1.0 with a low average matchscore over a span of like 1000 matches, it's pretty save to say he isn't helping his team to win. Someone who does that basically is a liability to his team. You wouldn't notice by playing a few matches alongside of him, because in those matches his approach might work very well. What you don't see is all those games that don't work out well, which are represented in the stats though.

And how do you judge people who like to run sub-otimal mechs on a regular basis because they do not like the meta builds?

And K/D ration as an indicator? I had matches were I shot up 3 mechs and when I was about finishing them off a guy came along and put an alpha in it and he got the kill. Who was more valuable for the team in those cases?

But heck, do whatever you want I do not look up stats anyway except I want to see if someone pilots lights or not (when he cries how OP they are)

Edited by Bush Hopper, 26 February 2017 - 02:16 AM.

[El Bandito]

Bush Hopper, on 26 February 2017 - 02:03 AM, said:

And how do you judge people who like to run sub-otimal mechs on a regular basis because they do not like the meta?

In QP, if the person is skilled, he will have good scores even maining sub-optimal mechs like the Gargles, or Cataphract. Not potentially as much as meta mechs, but there will be a pattern.

There are few outlier exceptions, but I'd like to think no one is stupid enough to main Panther-10P or Spider-5V.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 February 2017 - 02:12 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Bush Hopper, on 26 February 2017 - 02:03 AM, said:

And how do you judge people who like to run sub-otimal mechs on a regular basis because they do not like the meta?

Tbh, its hot too hard to hold a KDR above 1 in even some of the worst of mechs. 7 MG Shadow Cat can put in some work with a decent player. If you're sitting at under 1 KDR after 1000 matches you'd have to be bad enough to be actively hindering your team either by being so bad that you're team is basically down a man to start or by being someone who is entirely oblivious of teammates and constantly blocks fire and blocks people who are trying to return to cover, thus being worse than an AFK.

Holding a WLR above 1 though is entirely up to the teams on both sides though. A good player can influence a match heavily, but even if you killed half the enemy team some teams can't manage to collectively kill one person between the 11 of them.

[meteorol]

Bush Hopper, on 26 February 2017 - 02:03 AM, said:

And how do you judge people who like to run sub-otimal mechs on a regular basis because they do not like the meta builds?

And K/D ration as an indicator? Haha. Sorry. I had matches were I shot up 3 mechs and when I was about finishing them off a guy came along and put an alpha in it and he got the kill. Who was more valuable for the team in those cases?

You do realize that those singulary events from single matches even out over the span of 1000+ matches? That's why i specifically said "a combination of all stats over all seasons someone played. k/d alone is as bad as an indicator as w/l alone or matchscore alone.

And honestly, from a performance perspective it doesn't matter if you are dragging down your team in a meta mech or a sub-optimal mech or non-meta mech. The only thing that matters from a teams perspective is if you are helping your team to win. Overall subpar stats over a large amount of matches during a large timespan are a very strong indicator that someone doesn't do that.

It really doens't matter if someone drags his team down in a lore build Timberwolf or in a Gauss/PPC Night Gyr. The bottom line is that he drags the team down. Which is the only thing that matters from the teams perspective.

Edited by meteorol, 26 February 2017 - 02:22 AM.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

I managed to see the very worst KDK-3 build I have ever seen tonight.... 4 cAC2 & 3 cERSL. Hard to beat a build that bad... but he sure defended it like it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, last one to die and was at 100% armor when they swarmed him & died in like 3 seconds. I think their horrifically bad play gives them a false sense of what fighting in a mech is like cause I see that happen all the time where they go from fresh to dead in 2 or 3 seconds as they get focused down by 8 other people. Then see them later in another match and they complain about how they die so fast... just awfulness all around.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Bohxim, on 26 February 2017 - 01:48 AM, said:

Wait til you see gods like Ukku in his assaults with or without your help, he's gonna carry coz of good map knowledge and experience to maximise his weapon advantages against the enemy. Someone I aspire to become like. *idolisation*

REDACTED

Edited by I_AM_ZUUL, 26 February 2017 - 03:38 AM.

[METAL SEPARATOR]

Zergling, on 26 February 2017 - 01:37 AM, said:

One of the lessons every MWO player should learn(1) is to avoid relying on teammates as much as possible.

The second is to take advantage of their stupidity. Eg, use them as meat shields or bait when they do something particularly stupid.

(1) as with most cases of 'should', most players never do learn this

Exactly this. Just take it as given, that you play with stupidos. Use their stupidity against them, use your team members' stupidity too.
Rarely on the battlefield, you will meet mech pilots that do the same and together just few of you or even just two of you will effectively crash the other team, just because you understand.
You just need to learn to analyze the situation on the battlefield and use it accordingly to your interests. Comes with experience and the right builds.

[SQW]

When you see me reach T1 on my 3MPL + Narc RVN-3L, you know I've reached godhood. =P

I wish PGI can have a big flashy warning whenever a new account pick assault.

[Warning: Assault class is the most challenging class; consider using a medium mech to test your skills against other players. Do you still wish to proceed?]

[El Bandito]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 26 February 2017 - 03:33 AM, said:

I managed to see the very worst KDK-3 build I have ever seen tonight.... 4 cAC2 & 3 cERSL. Hard to beat a build that bad... but he sure defended it like it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, last one to die and was at 100% armor when they swarmed him & died in like 3 seconds. I think their horrifically bad play gives them a false sense of what fighting in a mech is like cause I see that happen all the time where they go from fresh to dead in 2 or 3 seconds as they get focused down by 8 other people. Then see them later in another match and they complain about how they die so fast... just awfulness all around.

Not as awful as this Atlas' build.

[l33tworks]

To OP and all the people who say assault shouldnt stand back and fire...you get in an assault for a week and be the one to push first and tell us how it works out for you....

The heavies should push first, followed by mediums then assaults third to power clean the enemies while they are occupied hurt and hot so they have little chance of retaliation.

9/10 times you push in first with an Assault you die within seconds to focus fire while the mediums and heavies take half a step into the battlefield, take a few pot shots before they retreat back into cover when they see their assaults melted..Then its just a matter of time before the enemy team recompose themselves and push into your position with 80% of your teams firepower gone.

Assaults simply do not having anywhere near enough armour to tank a push. I simply ignore people who tell me to push first in an asault because i know where my strenghts are. Every single good assault players knows this and always plays to their strenghts which is why assaults are the most "OP" class according to raw stats, and conversely its why threads like this are made when the players that dont know how to assault LISTEN to the non assault players and try to be heroes but fail miserably.

Edited by l33tworks, 26 February 2017 - 04:42 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

l33tworks, on 26 February 2017 - 04:34 AM, said:

To OP and all the people who say assault shouldnt stand back and fire...you get in an assault for a week and be the one to push first and tell us how it works out for you....

The heavies should push followed by mediums then assaults third to power clean the enemies while they are occupied hurt amd hot with little chance of retaliation.

9/10 times you push in first with an Assault you die within seconds to focus fire while the mediums and heavies take half a step into the battlefield, take a few pot ahots before they retreat back into cover when they see their assaults melted..Then its just a matter of time before the enemy team recompose themselves and push into your position with 80% of uour teams firepower gone.

Assaults simply do not having anywhere near enough armour to tank a pushm

Its more of wanting the assaults to walk into optimal range of their guns rather than blindly charge the enemy firing line.

[SQW]

l33tworks, on 26 February 2017 - 04:34 AM, said:

Assaults simply do not having anywhere near enough armour to tank a pushm

It's sad that in MWO, people legitimately fear LCTs than an Atlas.

[El Bandito]

SQW, on 26 February 2017 - 04:39 AM, said:

It's sad that in MWO, people legitimately fear LCTs than an Atlas.

It is very easy to outrange the Atlas, and keep it that way.

[Catra Lanis]

I'm a hiding assault and I'll keep hiding. The macintosh gameplay we have now means that even an assault goes down in seconds. Assaults being some kind of semi-indestructible juggernaut is a myth.

I play deliberately by waiting and seeing where I can do the most good, then I step out and snap off a salvo. Last night I did 880 dmg. and 3 kills. Would it have been better for the team if I had waddled toward the enemy and gone down in seconds after getting maybe 100 dmg.?

I also have to run an XL in order to have more firepower than a medium. Broad as a barndoor, impossible to miss those ST. That means that I can get instakilled by a heavy or another assault without the benfit of warping lagging that some lights has.

Do you OP want us to play like you envision assaults? Then petition PGI to double our armor and remove the IS XL penalty. Maybe then we can wade through the shitstorm at least for 30 seconds.

Edited by Catra Lanis, 26 February 2017 - 04:54 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Yup, charging with an assault means to run straight and brainless in a firing line.

Reading those replies answers why people hide in their assaults.

[Catalina Steiner]

[mod]Moved to "Jettisoned communication" for very obvious reasons. Have a nice stay.[/mod]

[Battlemaster56]

l33tworks, on 26 February 2017 - 04:34 AM, said:

To OP and all the people who say assault shouldnt stand back and fire...you get in an assault for a week and be the one to push first and tell us how it works out for you....

The heavies should push first, followed by mediums then assaults third to power clean the enemies while they are occupied hurt and hot so they have little chance of retaliation.

9/10 times you push in first with an Assault you die within seconds to focus fire while the mediums and heavies take half a step into the battlefield, take a few pot shots before they retreat back into cover when they see their assaults melted..Then its just a matter of time before the enemy team recompose themselves and push into your position with 80% of your teams firepower gone.

Assaults simply do not having anywhere near enough armour to tank a push. I simply ignore people who tell me to push first in an asault because i know where my strenghts are. Every single good assault players knows this and always plays to their strenghts which is why assaults are the most "OP" class according to raw stats, and conversely its why threads like this are made when the players that dont know how to assault LISTEN to the non assault players and try to be heroes but fail miserably.

Most my Assault builds are best within the range of 200-630m, and I know assaults don't have enough armor against focus'd fire same said to pretty much every mech in this game. If I see assault in the back with weapons and armor that could be used to hold the firing line or for a strong push is wasted firepower and weight. I played assaults long enough to know their strength and weaknesses. Seeing a assault lead the charge tend to get people to follow said assault, but seeing them hang back in brawler builds in huge sniper maps they are useless 90% of the time. You can hide like a coward all you want but you wasting my time and the team while you cower through out the peek poke warrior 2k17 addition with poptarts.

Catra Lanis, on 26 February 2017 - 04:53 AM, said:

I'm a hiding assault and I'll keep hiding. The macintosh gameplay we have now means that even an assault goes down in seconds. Assaults being some kind of semi-indestructible juggernaut is a myth.

I play deliberately by waiting and seeing where I can do the most good, then I step out and snap off a salvo. Last night I did 880 dmg. and 3 kills. Would it have been better for the team if I had waddled toward the enemy and gone down in seconds after getting maybe 100 dmg.?

I also have to run an XL in order to have more firepower than a medium. Broad as a barndoor, impossible to miss those ST. That means that I can get instakilled by a heavy or another assault without the benfit of warping lagging that some lights has.

Do you OP want us to play like you envision assaults? Then petition PGI to double our armor and remove the IS XL penalty. Maybe then we can wade through the shitstorm at least for 30 seconds.

No I want that fire power that heavies and assaults have to be used not wasted standing idle by or firing their weapons at max range. And if I ever fine you in the back wasting that armor and fire power I'll "encourage" you to help out the team. I dn't care you care even one damn bit you have an xl so what I care that you provide back if you expect mediums and lights holding the position while you cower from get shot at. In a game where you get shot at regardless.

And this thread not about IS fragile XL engine, it about the cowardness of players in the meaty mechs while players in mediums and lights trying to hold the position we can take advantage or set up a push.

[jjm1]

Not all assaults are equal. They have different roles and strengths like other classes. Most of them are not spearheads, arguably the Atlas and KDK-3 are the only ones that are. King Crab and DWF can do it effectively, but not as well as you would expect.