167 replies to this topic

[KingCobra]

Trying to find FP games now is just as bad as before 4.1 the length of time to find a match without a group is so bad I would think most players bail the search at 5 min or less I know I do.

It is to bad because I do like playing FP and the scout mm search for solo pug is just as bad,


So PGI what are you doing to fix Player retention and less wait times for FP now?

You obviously are not fixing FP so all can play it or you would have already split the FP queues and put in a Social lobby so we can find games and players to drop with.

And yes you can still find a few groups to drop with but its getting even hard to find groups on TS3 willing to let you drop into there games as well.

So Russ and PGI lets hear your grand new plan for fixing FP because I'm probably not alone in wanting to play FP and find games as a solo or pug/casual player.

Edited by KingCobra, 27 February 2017 - 01:02 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

It's no better AS a group. Clan wait times the last week were 30mins+ - solo/group/potato - wait is the same.

We will be going IS this week and I'd imagine it'll be no different as when we were IS (circa 3 weeks ago), there was lots of waiting there too.

This was always going to happen with 4.1 as it didn't deliver anything new at all. You'll have to wait for April before the next "patch" which is 4.2.

Given everything that's been discussed about 4.2 as well... The "round table" which was, IMO, below average at best. I don't hold high hopes for 4.2 at all unless they REALLY smash the loyalist rewards outta the ballpark and fix it, cause there is no reason for them to play at the moment if you're rank 20 (which most are). Hell I'm just about rank 10 merc... What do I do then? Go loyalist?

Edited by justcallme A S H, 27 February 2017 - 04:27 PM.

[KingCobra]

Well ash the reason I came back to play some FP is I wanted to fill out all my faction rewards in each house of IS or clan but crap I think the FP launcher is broken most times I wait forever to get a match and some times I go like 1-2 min cancel hit the launcher again and a game pops up to play.

This of course is like 1 out of 40 tries to get a match. many have tried to help Russ and PGI fix FP but it seems they wont listen to any good ideas anymore. To be honest I don't know where they get some of there ideas for FP but they really suckkkkk asssss.

What happened to our new Lobby system in the main UI of the game? Where we could find players and groups to drop with? It must be sitting on a island somewhere off the coast of Canada.


P.S the crappy 7 day wait to change factions really sucks they should change it to like 1 hour that I think drove away a lot of players as well as the pug stomping by groups well they might get smart and split the FP queues before the game mode dies out.

Edited by KingCobra, 27 February 2017 - 04:34 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

That's apparently coming in 4.2 - April (new UI). But again, a UI will not fix the game, it will not fix the wait times.

[LordNothing]

sounds like you guys are undermanned. i was thinking about spending some time in clan while i level linebackers. though last week when i took this contract there wasnt a single green clan contract bonus. im playing fp exclusively right now with hero/special decks trying to pump up my income for the linebacker.

Edited by LordNothing, 27 February 2017 - 04:38 PM.

[KingCobra]

Its weird only got 4 invasion drops all day and cant get a scout drop at all 1 match we won but it was a (IS PUG VS Clan PUG) game very close and fun 2 drops verses clan groups 1 8 man 1 12 man it was a quick slaughter thank god both games only lasted like 10 min each and the last was a close game mixed IS and Clan units.

Trying to get to level 20 on your faction rep rewards is insane now and without a good group its a long grind just for 1 IS or Clan complete reward set and the stupid 7 day wait to change to another IS or Clan loyalist group.

[justcallme A S H]

Scouting is a waste of time outside of an event, don't waste time on it IMO.

I see why PGI brought it in but all it does is serve to thin out the players available. Scouting pays less than normal QP and is just about a Med Brawl. I mean if that is all you wanna do, then go for it. But really the actual in-game use of it for Invasion, it means nothing.

[KingCobra]

To be honest I love scouting for just that reason brawling in mediums its the only time mediums really have a place in MWO in solo or FP there overshadowed by Lights that can solo assaults/heavy's or by heavy's/assaults period and in solo mm queues 90% of the time taking a medium is a ROFL event as you die in just a few shots.


I wish PGI had doubled the armor on a lot of old first year mechs and mediums there like poorly engineered glass cannons.

[DarklightCA]

KingCobra, on 27 February 2017 - 05:03 PM, said:

To be honest I love scouting for just that reason brawling in mediums its the only time mediums really have a place in MWO in solo or FP there overshadowed by Lights that can solo assaults/heavy's or by heavy's/assaults period and in solo mm queues 90% of the time taking a medium is a ROFL event as you die in just a few shots.


I wish PGI had doubled the armor on a lot of old first year mechs and mediums there like poorly engineered glass cannons.

What? You are playing your mediums wrong than because there is a lot of stupid good mediums that can dominate the game.

[justcallme A S H]

KingCobra, on 27 February 2017 - 05:03 PM, said:

To be honest I love scouting for just that reason brawling in mediums its the only time mediums really have a place in MWO in solo or FP there overshadowed by Lights that can solo assaults/heavy's or by heavy's/assaults period and in solo mm queues 90% of the time taking a medium is a ROFL event as you die in just a few shots.

I wish PGI had doubled the armor on a lot of old first year mechs and mediums there like poorly engineered glass cannons.

You've not been on the FRR/Kurita (Star League) hub then?
They regularly have 2-4 12mans running and a common tactic for them is to do a first wave Med IS Brawl. That said the counter to it seems to be 4 Scorches backed up with range. Haven't seen the SRM brawler push work against that yet, but most teams on the Hub are still a bit hap-hazard (I thought they'd get better by now... But I think that is regular drop caller related more than anything).

FP is about teamwork, at the end of the day. You drop solo, sometimes your choices are not going to work with whateveryone else is up to.

So yeah, if you wanna run a Med Brawl in your deck as a solo player when most of your team won't, of course you're gonna have a bad time trying to do so. That said my 4th IS mech is usually a Med brawler solo or not, you just have to be very mindful of it's use, but then most clanners are front loading decks still you it's Med vs Light - no reason you can't do very well there and easily crank out 250-400dmg in a very short space of time.

[Votanin FleshRender]

I've said it a hundred times. All the 'hawd coar' players wanted no MM in CW... but without pugs, there is no CW. MWO just doesn't have the population. And without some kind of matchmaking, pugs abandon CW after getting owned by the organized groups.

Now, I got nothing against groups, except their defending their right to club seals. If they truly want a healthy, competitive CW, that will never happen without some kind of MM putting groups against groups and letting solos play solos. Never.

The definition of insanity is what again?

[justcallme A S H]

Yes but a matchmaker - doesn't fix it that easily (long post warning, but read it, you'll see more sense here than PGI's ever put out)

A fair portion of them are beaten in a 4 v 12 or 6 v 12 scenario, where the other 4-6 are better players etc. I see it quite a lot actually. Hell with simply 3 good players on one team I've seen myself (& 2 others) slaughter 8-10mans, and that was dropping solo.

And thus there is obviously no way to set a MM for a team vs solo, as it needs to be a sum of their ability. You also cannot exclude solo and team because some teams are just not that great nor is the population enough to support a split - it never has been. Maybe in time if players come back, but that is a chicken/egg scenario.

Another issue is when a team carries some of it's weaker players to repeated victories then it's quite hard for that player to then drop solo as a MM could potentially rank them higher for a solo-drop scenario. It would need to take in multi-factors from wins/losses, match score etc.

Problem with things like match score is some things mean FAR more than others. A huge imbalance to any MM right there as a NARC/Tag mech suffers or anyone in a light *scouting* role as part of a team choice. I mean some players will do whatever role for their team that is needed but it skews results.

MM for FP is something not as simple as most people seem to think, so I can see why PGI haven't brought it in because it would require quite a bit of work to BALANCE the MM out. Given the state Mech/Weapon Balance and whats affected that the past 12 months and in that 12 months IMO some shocking decisions have been made that then has taken months of re-balancing to offset (and then, not actually balance correctly).


I'm all for a MM - but, I don't feel PGI has the ability to get it right initially. The issue is if you don't get it right initially (AKA Faction Play Phase 3 launch). You instantly lose a whole bunch of people you'll never get back.

The exodus within FP 3 launch month was, horrible. 4.1 took 3 months longer simply because of QP/PUGs, there was plenty of them to go around but the end result has been the same.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 27 February 2017 - 06:42 PM.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

A skill based MM will never work for FW. It doesn't work for solo queue right now. PGI has admitted that tier 4s drop against tier 1s, which was never supposed to happen. So, If it doesn't work with the vastly more populous solo queue, how could it possibly work for FW?

The only thing I see working at all is a pure numbers MM. IF group A queues up with 7. Then MM sets them aside and waits for a group of 5-9 to match them against. When group B is found, then MM pulls in pugs/small groups to fill and launches the match.

This is what was asked for in the round table before 4.1. I really don't see how anything else would be able to function given the small player base for FW.

[justcallme A S H]

The solo Q is not a match maker. It's a experience-grind bar. Plenty, plenty, plenty of players in T1/T2 should not be there. I'd say I should be a T2 max player as well, so even I see the flaws in it.

Hence an actual Match Maker, as it stands now, isn't simple because what the PSR calculates on is inherently flawed and nowhere near strict enough.

[MischiefSC]

Votanin FleshRender, on 27 February 2017 - 06:07 PM, said:

I've said it a hundred times. All the 'hawd coar' players wanted no MM in CW... but without pugs, there is no CW. MWO just doesn't have the population. And without some kind of matchmaking, pugs abandon CW after getting owned by the organized groups.

Now, I got nothing against groups, except their defending their right to club seals. If they truly want a healthy, competitive CW, that will never happen without some kind of MM putting groups against groups and letting solos play solos. Never.

The definition of insanity is what again?

Here's the problem though -

Matches take 30 minutes to complete, so if there's 2 teams of 12mans and 2 pug teams on IS and 3 12mans and 1 pug team on Clans, how is the MM supposed to match them up unless they magically all start matches at the same time? When your 12man goes into the queue the other teams are likely already in matches. Does it make you wait 20 minutes to 'sync' you with the closest skill team? Then of the 4 other teams of players available, you just play that group again and again and again?

I get the concept, I do. I'd like to play against teams in my team. I wouldn't mind a pug/premade split in principle if the population supported it. It doesn't though and it wouldn't, the pug queue would be a depressing nightmare and probably a lot of sync dropping (with low populations it's really, really easy to sync drop) while the group queue would struggle to fill matches unless everyone only grouped in 12s.

Before that's even a concept to look at you'd need to make FW more fun, deeper and more engaging to draw more total players. Then you can start trying to parse them out into skill ranges.

[BearFlag]

justcallme A S H, on 27 February 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:

Scouting is a waste of time outside of an event, don't waste time on it IMO.

I see why PGI brought it in but all it does is serve to thin out the players available. Scouting pays less than normal QP and is just about a Med Brawl. I mean if that is all you wanna do, then go for it. But really the actual in-game use of it for Invasion, it means nothing.

90% think Respawn Carnage is a waste of time. I happen to like Scout a lot. Somewhere around 2000 matches. It's a blast but also has a population problem. The reason is likely different though. Match balance is sometimes a problem, but with only four mechs, pilot skill and coordination is front and center. Beyond "fun" Scout's pertinence relies heavily on FW overall. The recent dip in population was close to simultaneous.

I also doubt that Scout is taking many players away from Invasion modes. Our different tastes indicate the overlap may not be so great.

justcallme A S H, on 27 February 2017 - 06:39 PM, said:

MM for FP is something not as simple as most people seem to think, so I can see why PGI haven't brought it in because it would require quite a bit of work to BALANCE the MM out. Given the state Mech/Weapon Balance and whats affected that the past 12 months and in that 12 months IMO some shocking decisions have been made that then has taken months of re-balancing to offset (and then, not actually balance correctly).


I'm all for a MM - but, I don't feel PGI has the ability to get it right initially. The issue is if you don't get it right initially (AKA Faction Play Phase 3 launch). You instantly lose a whole bunch of people you'll never get back.

Have to disagree again. It would be utterly impossible for a designer with an ounce of competence to construct a MM (even initial) worse than no matchmaker. You currently have the WORST. A bad MM would be an improvement.

As for designing one? Actually it really isn't that hard. This has been done literally thousands of times on games, gaming systems and simulations far, far more complex than MWO. But I would reluctantly agree, based on the QP MM, that PGI doesn't know how to do it. They do have the general idea - it's calculated from the pilot and the mech(s). But, of course, PSR tier and weight class (QP) are just bad starting points. For pilots something like a 45 day moving average of critical stats would represent him pretty well. For mechs in QP, something akin to a BV system should be employed. BV too is not difficult to build and tweak into shape. It would even be real time adaptable to weapon or quirk changes and mech-as-built.

One thing PGI should steer clear of except in an emergency is the global 'quick fixes' like drop deck weight that don't fix anything. Sure, it may improve the W/L a little, but many of the matches are still terrible blowouts. Matchmaking is a per-match balancing.

In the (temporary, we hope) absence of a player pool, other methods must be made available to a matchmaker. There a loads of things you could do. On-map changes, flexible victory conditions, mode/objective change, start force change. Many could be used in combination. In terms of programming, flexible victory would be easiest, but I suspect players might not like a moving target for victory determination. Start force change can be done different ways. One I suggested in another thread was to effectively create a player mech pool (say, a "Reserve" deck), from which some weight bumping could be done.

In any event, it can be done. And would surely be improvement over no matchmaker.

In practice (FW):
Step 1: On queue entry, calculate pilot rating, sum teams
Step 2: Search pilot queue to balance. If fail,
Step 3: Employ secondary methods

[KingCobra]

BearFlag said (90% think Respawn Carnage is a waste of time. I happen to like Scout a lot. Somewhere around 2000 matches. It's a blast but also has a population problem. The reason is likely different though. Match balance is sometimes a problem, but with only four mechs, pilot skill and coordination is front and center. Beyond "fun" Scout's pertinence relies heavily on FW overall. The recent dip in population was close to simultaneous.

I also doubt that Scout is taking many players away from Invasion modes. Our different tastes indicate the overlap may not be so great.)
==========================================================================================
Its to bad bear we don't have a scout mode with 4v4 lights and 4v4 mediums as well as a 8v8 for both groups lights and mediums.
==============================================================================================

Dropped on the FRR TS3 and played some great matches tonight thanks FRR .
===========================================================================================
For 4 years now I have tried to help PGI populate there game with players and ideas but they still don't get what makes BattleTech/MechWarrior games great.

Back in MechWarrior2- Mechwarrior4mercinaries it was about playing stompy robots chatting and socializing in a environment so you could meet players set up groups and play matches 1v1-12v12. Private leagues for planetary and Solaris were set up for players who wanted a bit more competition in this IP.

MWO has lacked the social aspect of BattleTech and MechWarrior from day 1 we should have had a huge chat room to not only socialize but practice in private games for free so new players pugs and casuals had a place to ask questions about MWO and find players to learn from.

This is such a easy thing to implement for Russ and PGI and place it in the main UI on a tab but for 4 years PGI has tried to make a terrible E-sport game instead of a socially acceptable Battletech MechWarrior game. How can you expect new players-pugs/casuals to want to form more group play teams when they are told by teams you have to install 3rd party software and be marched around like SS solders to get into units?

Most players just want a fun relaxed easy going time when they play not some military routine run by general moose knuckle.

Edited by KingCobra, 27 February 2017 - 09:20 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

BearFlag, on 27 February 2017 - 08:58 PM, said:

As for designing one? Actually it really isn't that hard. This has been done literally thousands of times on games, gaming systems and simulations far, far more complex than MWO. But I would reluctantly agree, based on the QP MM, that PGI doesn't know how to do it.

In the (temporary, we hope) absence of a player pool, other methods must be made available to a matchmaker. There a loads of things you could do. On-map changes, flexible victory conditions, mode/objective change, start force change. Many could be used in combination. In terms of programming, flexible victory would be easiest, but I suspect players might not like a moving target for victory determination. Start force change can be done different ways. One I suggested in another thread was to effectively create a player mech pool (say, a "Reserve" deck), from which some weight bumping could be done.

In any event, it can be done. And would surely be improvement over no matchmaker.

In practice (FW):
Step 1: On queue entry, calculate pilot rating, sum teams
Step 2: Search pilot queue to balance. If fail,
Step 3: Employ secondary methods

Problem is in peak times, you'll potentially end up with 100 people in a queue and a system "waiting" to find decent conditions for secondary. Given that is where it will end up, most of the time due to population imbalance and then player disparity (which right now is huge). You cannot have a moving target for match victory, that will again push people away.

So ye, it is hard to devise because it needs to take into account solo AND team stats. The problem there is, how those stats are then calculated/formed upon. Match score needs to be used but as it stands, match score is a horrible way to do it. So that system needs a total rethink before anything else (good luck with that, it's a 3-4 month job as PGI pace).

If you've seen the past 12 months in MWO - If they don't nail it first time, it ends up driving people away or making people hate parts of the game, always.
The last 12 months issues in no particular order that have had massive impacts to population, match balance etc;

FP 3
FP 4.1
IS Light / Hvy re-scale, total debarcle
Skill tree release, touted for months - release pushed almost immediately after PTS showed incredible holes
Heat system (whatever it was called), totally shelved after a shocking PTS reception (just lol)
Rework of short range maps into long range snipe fests (Frozen City)
Escort Mode
Whole MWO Online C/Ship - possibly the worst online tournament organisation/communication wise that I've ever been a part of in 20 years of gaming.
Some major balance blunders - AKA UAC's (They are seriously WTF).


That is just the last 12 months... I have zero faith a MM can be properly employed right now, and certainly not before Sept at the earliest. So where does that leave things until then? Dire straights.

4.1 should have had it delivered it, it should've been started in Jan 2016. But Russ's grand plan of "bucket" was meant to "fix all" but was just another 3 month band-aid delivered 6 months too late.

And if you played 2,000 scouting matches, good for you. Go look @ the leaderboard, the vast majority of people, over 95% - have not played it. People are clearly not interested in the mode. So less than 5% of a already small % population, plays is regularly... That is niche on niche. Only reason the majority of FP population scouts, is events that depend on it. So disagree, that is fine, but the fact is it's a dead mode.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 27 February 2017 - 09:47 PM.

[Liveish]

They need a button that says how many is playing and estimated wait time. ( they also need this for group play QP)

[justcallme A S H]

Devils advocate

If people see it's a 15min wait, will they queue or not bother at all? If so, would that make it even worse?

I'd rather not know lol... That was once I'm suckered into the "search" button, no way in hell I'll stop cause someone kents will leapfrog me

Edited by justcallme A S H, 27 February 2017 - 09:55 PM.