196 replies to this topic

[WolvesX]

I tested and looked it up again on the new test server and the isseu is not fixed. I'm just debating with myself if I even bother to load up my testing and screenshots that prove it, its basicly the same as in PTS2.
(that sounds super salty)

I love MWO.

I love it and that is the reason why I even opend this and put in all the time.

Obvious flaws like NERFING UNDERPERFORMERS make me sad.

Currant, on 04 March 2017 - 06:39 AM, said:

You've cherry picked a few examples from that whole data set to misrepresent your point. And as a whole, removal of chassis specific quirks is a good thing as it will allow for more experimentation with skills for different builds.

The current iteration of the new skill tree isn't perfect, but it is a step in the right direction.

I linked to the PDF. I stated they the ones I picked are JUST examples. IF you had looked that the PDF you could have seen it yourself.

Proof me wrong. I beg you. If I get something totaly wrong here I would be glad if you proof my math wrong.

I'm not aganist a system change, but it should IMPROVE the balance of the game, NOT imbalance it even more!

Edited by WolvesX, 04 March 2017 - 08:05 AM.

[WolvesX]

Wintersdark, on 02 March 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

This is a problem, then - I haven't checked everything, but will make a point to do that. It'll need to be adjusted for somewhere if this is the case across the board, no doubt.

Did you check it? I would really like to have a comment on this now.

Edited by WolvesX, 04 March 2017 - 07:42 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

yes and no,
i its a hard decision,

would i like to see most Quirks removed? Yes,
personally i think we should only have structure Quirks, leave weapon Quirks out of it,
but i can also acknowledge that Quirks are needed in some instances,

i would say for balance, Remove All Quirks, & test(yes we know some will fail, looking to one of my Favorites LCT)
then take mechs with bad Geo or weapon Placement, or low ratings, and increase their Base Mobility and Structure,

the catch is this would mean a global nerf to all mech Mobilty wise to All Mechs,
this would allow other less viable mechs to be Buffed with out breaking the game,
by this it would me slowing the entire game down, then speeding up the under performers,


then as mobility is now semi decuppled from Engines(Engines still give some Accell / Decell Ect)
buff those mechs with lower viability to compete with those that are more viable,

how i would change the system is i would make 3 Types of mechs,
Standard Mechs(Mechs that dont need much Change as they are already good)
Mobility Mechs(Mechs that arnt Viable so we Primarally Buff their Mobility making them good)
Tanking Mechs(Mechs that arnt Viable so we Primarally Buff their Health making them good)

for Mobility Buffs i think the Decuppling the Engine was a Good Start,
now instead of a mech getting Modility Quirks they get their Base Stats changes instead,

for Tanking we use Structure Quirks(Clan) & Armor Quirks(IS)(because higher chance to be Crit on Clan),
this would allow good mechs to not get hit with Neg Quirks, but also allow other mechs to have defined roles,
a LCT is a MObility Mech, a WLF is a Tank, a FS9 is a STD(STD mechs still get Quirks but not as much)


the thing is can we as a Community handle PGI giving us a Global Nerf to all Mobility,
so they can balance after using mobility, so Mobility can matter more than it is,
-
its hard to balance a Quirkless TBR to a Quirkless MAD,
give the MAD + 20 Mobility it still wont matter much because the TBR is already so Moble,
you would have to Nerf the Mobility of the TBR & MAD(Global) then Buff the MAD,
only then will Mobility matter, which is what we are seeing right now on the PTS,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 04 March 2017 - 08:44 AM.

[Wintersdark]

WolvesX, on 04 March 2017 - 07:11 AM, said:

Did you check it? I would really like to have a comment on this now.

I waited for the next PTS.

Spent hours on it last night, and here's the thing.

In a great many cases, IS movement values are simply higher than Clans.

Consider: The HBK-4G turns at 55 degrees per second, unskilled. The HBK-IIC turns at 55 degrees per second, with the WHOLE mobility tree purchased. If the 4G takes mobility skills, it handles like a light. This is very common across the board, with comparable IS mechs very often having higher values to comparable Clam chassis.

As such... It's hard to say. I spent a lot of time in Hunchbacks (IS and Clan) and also my Centurions, marveling at how really awesome they felt. So, while the IS *is* losing a portion of their existing quirks, they are also being compensated by a relative gain in mobility vs. Clans due to the decoupling (as Clan mechs pretty much always run larger engines than IS mechs, they are in live nearly always more agile barring major quirks), *and* IS mechs are often sporting superior baseline agility values, ton for ton.

---

So I agree, with the reduction of the quirks, IS would need some form of compensation. However, they ARE receiving compensation in this process, in a number of ways. Is it enough? Is it insufficient? That's pretty speculative right now, and is going to need testing.

If [when] average speeds drop, you'll see more IS mechs mounting standard engines, which will allow those IS mechs to maintain their agility advantage AND be sturdier too.

Too many moving parts to call.

[Chados]

WolvesX, on 02 March 2017 - 10:09 AM, said:

Look here for the changes:
http://static.mwomer...re%20Quirks.pdf
http://static.mwomer...an%20Quirks.pdf

It might be complicated to understand the consequences, so I picked some examples and try to make it more simple to understand.

PGIs idea with this was: Compensation for the cut of skills and addition of the skill tree.

BUT there is a gigant problem and it seems they didn't get it.

---

Let me explain it:

EXAMPLE ORION:

NEW:


OLD:


As you can see the Orion (of all things) got nerfed...

excluding the mobility ones: -5% BCD, -20% BV


Visualized Example:

HBK-IIC before the skilltree in comparison (with quirks and mastery).

Orion before the skilltree in comparison (with quirks and mastery).


AFTER THE SKILLTREE

HBK-IIC after the skilltree in comparison (with quirks).


Orion after the skilltree in comparison (with quirks).

As you can see, the Orion would now be worse in comparison.


The reason:
1) Both got the skills removed.
2) Both got the skill tree added.
3) Only the Orion (and many other IS and Clan mechs) got its quirks nerfed / removed.

Now:
Can we agree on that taking away quirks to "balance" an universal change is a bad thing?

Those mech needed the quirks before.

IF you take away these quirks, you buff those mech who where without quirks in the first place.

---

Basic explanation (simplified):

MECH1 = 10 ; MECH2= 15.
MECH1 (with quirks) = 10+5; MECH2= 15.

But if you add the skill tree & nerf MECH1s (for example the Vindicator) quirks:

MECH1= 10 +5 -4 +3 = 14
MECH2= 15 + 3 = 18

See the flaw?
Now MECH2 (f.e. Timber Wolf) is even stronger than before in comparison with MECH1 (f.e. Summoner)

---

An other example:

- The HBK-IIC has no quirks and gets the skill tree.
- The Awesome has quirks and also gets the skill tree.

So if you take away the quirks of the Awesomes and don't take away something from the HBK-IIC, you have buffed the HBK-IIC.

---

This makes NO sence at all: WHY WOULD THE AWESOME WITH THE SKILL TREE BUT WITHOUT ITS QUIRKS MORE EQUAL TO AN HBK-IIC THAT ALSO gets the skill tree?
---

Its basic math.

PLEASE if I get the math wrong here explain it to me!

---

It doesn't make any sence at all! Those chassis where not balanced in the first place.
THAT IS WHY you added quirks to them.
IF YOU NOW take away something from only ONE chassis it and add the same to both...

THE

BALANCE

IS

NOT

THE

SAME!

---

But this is not just an Clan / IS problem.

If you take quirks away from the Summoner (for example) the result would be the same:

Relative to the Timber Wolf the Summoner would be worse, because you added the skill tree to both, but took away from only one of the two.

---

Possible Solutions

1) Don't take away quirks from underperformers

OR

2) Give underperformers more skill points for free depending on the chassis.

OR

3) Fix "pinpoint" and call it a day...

---

Problem still exists in 2.1.

English is not my first language, sorry for orthography errors!

What he is saying is that IS mechs have been de-quirked. Most Clan mechs were already running with minimal quirks, but were not changed. The skill tree buffs all equally. Therefore, the IS has been nerfed across the board.

The problem is that until now, balance IS to Clan has been based on quirking underperforming IS mechs. They quirked things to create balance. Now they've nerfed the IS quirks, reducing the performance of those mechs, while leaving the superior Clan mechs as is. Result: PTS is a net Clan buff and we're simply going to make a situation where group queue drops are 2/3 Clan mechs into group queue drops being 95% Clan mechs. In solo queue I've had many drops where I've been in the only IS chassis out of 24 mechs in the drop. And skilling MADIICs I've had drops where all 24 mechs are Clan mechs.

Turning the game into "Mechwarrior 2: Ghost Bear's Legacy" may not be what the dev team intends. But it'll be what they will ultimately achieve.

Edited by Chados, 04 March 2017 - 09:18 AM.

[WolvesX]

Thank you for your input here! I very much apprechiate it! There is a lot to think about and test.

[Wintersdark]

Chados, on 04 March 2017 - 09:16 AM, said:

What he is saying is that IS mechs have been de-quirked. Most Clan mechs were already running with minimal quirks, but were not changed. The skill tree buffs all equally. Therefore, the IS has been nerfed across the board.

This is true, however, IS mechs gained in many cases better movement profiles for their baselines, and as IS mechs in live had *lower* profiles than clan mechs as a rule (as the Clan mechs have larger engines overall) they gain doubly here - and also have the ability to take things like Standard engines without crushing agility losses.

Now, I'm not saying this is perfect! I'm NOT making a "this is all magic balance" statement.

I'm only saying I can't objectively judge balance because there's a lot of moving parts here and PTS is 4v4 + really hard to get matches.

But I can say: Run a HBK-4G(55d/s, 29kph/s), then run a HBK-IIC(45d/s, 20kph/s), the mobility difference is enormous. Huge. Run a Quickdraw(65d/s, 38kph/s), then a Mad Dog(50d/s, 25kph/s). MAD-IIC(38/13) then a BLR(45/20).

It's not *everything*, as there are a couple instances where it's equal - for example the AS7 vs KDK vs KGC or HGN vs HGN-IIC or ON1 vs. ON1-IIC; but in all these cases the IS versions still have more structure, and weapon quirks over their brothers.

Again, I'm NOT saying everything is perfect, or the same, better or worse, but rather that there's a lot of moving parts and actual (real) gameplay is going to be needed to test.

[Appogee]

kapusta11, on 02 March 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

Removal of quirks is nothing else but IS nerf.

Yup.

Edited by Appogee, 04 March 2017 - 10:05 AM.

[WolvesX]

So thanks for the replays. Here is my test.

Two 100 Tonners.

ATLAS-D-DC vs KDK-3

3 Trees skilled. (71 SP KDK-3, 73 ATLAS-D-DC (ECM 2 more))



Now lets compare:

The Atlas lost: laser duration, missile velocity, missile cooldown, turn rate, torso turn rate, torso turn angle.

The KDK-3 lost: Nothing, because is hasn't any quirks before.

Both have gained the same, because the skill tree is the same for both.

EFFECT:
You have nerfed the D-DC!



The movement pattern is the same for both on PTS2.1

So it isn't more agile comperativly.

Wintersdark, on 04 March 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

This is true, however, IS mechs gained in many cases better movement profiles for their baselines, and as IS mechs in live had *lower* profiles than clan mechs as a rule (as the Clan mechs have larger engines overall) they gain doubly here - and also have the ability to take things like Standard engines without crushing agility losses.

Now, I'm not saying this is perfect! I'm NOT making a "this is all magic balance" statement.

I'm only saying I can't objectively judge balance because there's a lot of moving parts here and PTS is 4v4 + really hard to get matches.

But I can say: Run a HBK-4G(55d/s, 29kph/s), then run a HBK-IIC(45d/s, 20kph/s), the mobility difference is enormous. Huge. Run a Quickdraw(65d/s, 38kph/s), then a Mad Dog(50d/s, 25kph/s). MAD-IIC(38/13) then a BLR(45/20).

It's not *everything*, as there are a couple instances where it's equal - for example the AS7 vs KDK vs KGC or HGN vs HGN-IIC or ON1 vs. ON1-IIC; but in all these cases the IS versions still have more structure, and weapon quirks over their brothers.

Again, I'm NOT saying everything is perfect, or the same, better or worse, but rather that there's a lot of moving parts and actual (real) gameplay is going to be needed to test.

So this mech got no better movment and just lost boni it had in the first place because it is considered worse in comparison.

[Revis Volek]

We went back to square one...


PGI has no hindsight, they are like a machine that doesn't know where home is. They cant see where they have been therefore have no idea where they are going.

[Gebhart Leberecht von Bluecher]

Yeah Wolves - you got it!

That is exactly what I am concerned about since I heard PGI wants to implement a new Skilltree. Removing the Quirks of weaker Chassis is going to break the (kind of) balance we have at the Moment.
I think the balance between IS an Clan was even better before - before PGI took away quirks of overperforming IS Mechs in the past. That's why I changed to the Clan site, after almost 5 years (leading a competitive orientated company at 12th Donegal Guards) and being Steiner with my heart. But it's really not fun anymore.

Anyway..
This upcoming change took away my hope PGI will finally create a real balance between IS and Clans. It also took away my motivation to play this game anymore, even I played it since 2012 daily (except holidays).

[Weeny Machine]

Alistair Winter, on 02 March 2017 - 10:22 AM, said:

All the Awesomes still have quirks in the PTS. As do most mechs that previously had quirks, if not all of them.

Now, some of the earlier quirks have been reduced. That is bad. Your logic is sound. There is no need to reduce quirks on underperforming mechs to compensate for a universal buff.

Not only that. An overperforming mech like the Kodiak 3 gets the same skill points as a e.g. Huginn which is trash tier and even had more module slots to "compensate" for its trashyness (which it didn't).

Now, that is mind boggling

I am really curious if we get a Kodigeddon / Pedo Bear Touch'n Go

[Alistair Winter]

Bush Hopper, on 04 March 2017 - 11:36 AM, said:

Not only that. An overperforming mech like the Kodiak 3 gets the same skill points as a e.g. Huginn which is trash tier and even had more module slots to "compensate" for its trashyness (which it didn't).

Now, that is mind boggling

I am really curious if we get a Kodigeddon / Pedo Bear Touch'n Go

That's the big take-away from the PTS right now. A universal buff or universal nerf does not have uniform consequences. If you nerf everyone's mobility universally, it hits some mechs far harder than other mechs, for example. There's this notion that a 10% buff for everyone is going to help eveyone equally, but it doesn't necessarily work that way.

[WolvesX]

Bush Hopper, on 04 March 2017 - 11:36 AM, said:

Not only that. An overperforming mech like the Kodiak 3 gets the same skill points as a e.g. Huginn which is trash tier and even had more module slots to "compensate" for its trashyness (which it didn't).

Now, that is mind boggling

I am really curious if we get a Kodigeddon / Pedo Bear Touch'n Go

WRONG!, According to PGI...

According to PGI the Huginn was OP and needed a nerf: -5% MCD, -10 MV

-> TAKE THAT HUGINN!!

source: http://static.mwomer...re%20Quirks.pdf

Edited by WolvesX, 04 March 2017 - 12:23 PM.

[Cato Phoenix]

I agree, but I would use different descriptive terms than 'nerf' since it's really getting unbuffed.

It establishes a new baseline in which the bad mechs (or speaking in broad terms, the IS) are now behind the mechs who were already good (KDK-3s, etc) because they have lost their quirks which were holding the balancing bar.

I am OK with this insofar as it's probably necessary to test the baseline of where things are ending up - which, as PGI stated, was the goal. It's rather obvious that all those bad mechs will need something to bolster them back up, but in this at least PGI seems to not be trying to cooking two things at once, which is useful.

So I don't necessarily think flying off the handle about the balance is telling anyone anything they don't already know.

My personal thought for future balance is that 'bad' mechs should get more out of their SP nodes than good ones. If an atlas gets 10% more cooldown for ballastics than a KDK-3, for instance, through getting 1% extra per node or whatever.

Edited by Cato Phoenix, 04 March 2017 - 12:30 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

WolvesX, on 04 March 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

So thanks for the replays. Here is my test.

Two 100 Tonners.

ATLAS-D-DC vs KDK-3

3 Trees skilled. (71 SP KDK-3, 73 ATLAS-D-DC (ECM 2 more))

Spoiler

Now lets compare:

The Atlas lost: laser duration, missile velocity, missile cooldown, turn rate, torso turn rate, torso turn angle.

The KDK-3 lost: Nothing, because is hasn't any quirks before.

Both have gained the same, because the skill tree is the same for both.

EFFECT:
You have nerfed the D-DC!

Spoiler

The movement pattern is the same for both on PTS2.1

So it isn't more agile comperativly.


So this mech got no better movment and just lost boni it had in the first place because it is considered worse in comparison.

this was intresting so i did some testing my self, using the power of SCIENCE!!!


AS7-D-DC,
Stats........................Live..........L+Quirks...........PTS2..................PTS2+SkillTree...
Torso Yaw.................80°..........95°(+15).........80°(-16%)..............88°(+10%)...
Torso Pitch...............16°..............16°.................16°......................18°(+10%)...
Arm Yaw...................40°...............40°.................40°..........................16°..........
Arm Pitch.................30°...............30°.................30°......................39°(+30%)...
Turn Rate................34°/s.......42°/s(+25%)....30°/s(-19%)...........36°/s(+20%)...
Twist Speed.............34°/s............34°/s..............30°/s.........................30°/s.......
Torso Yaw Speed....60°/s........84°/s(+40%)...54°/s(-36%)............36°/s(+20%).
Torso Pitch Speed...33°/s............33°/s..............34°/s.........................30°/s.......
Arm Yaw Speed......135°/s..........135°/s............135°/s........................30°/s.......
Arm Pitch Speed.....135°/s.........135°/s............135°/s.........................30°/s.......
(assuming 300 Engine)

KDK-3,
Stats........................Live..........L+Quirks...........PTS2..................PTS2+SkillTree...
Torso Yaw.................60°..............60°..................60°......................66°(+10%)...
Torso Pitch...............20°..............20°.............16°(-20%).................18°(+10%)...
Arm Yaw...................30°..............30°...................40°...........................16°..........
Arm Pitch.................30°..............30°...................30°......................39°(+30%)...
Turn Rate................34°/s...........34°/s.........30°/s(-12%)..............36°/s(+20%)...
Twist Speed.............34°/s...........34°/s..............30°/s...........................30°/s.......
Torso Yaw Speed....60°/s............60°/s.........54°/s(-10%).............35°/s(+16%).
Torso Pitch Speed...33°/s...........33°/s..............34°/s...........................30°/s.......
Arm Yaw Speed......135°/s..........135°/s............135°/s.........................30°/s.......
Arm Pitch Speed.....135°/s.........135°/s............135°/s.........................30°/s.......
(assuming 300 Engine)


ok it seems like the AS7 isnt working too well, but it still has better stats then the KDK,
so Solutions? (assuming this isnt enough)
just increase the Quirk amounts for the IS Half of the Mobility Tree,
or increase the Core Stats so the AS7 Benefits more so then it does now,
(Remember the AS7 also has lots of Armor Quirks, making it much more Tanky)

[WolvesX]

Its visualized in the game like this: (PTS2.1) KDK-3 vs AS7-D-DC

---

Andi Nagasia, on 04 March 2017 - 12:49 PM, said:

ok it seems like the AS7 isnt working too well, but it still has better stats then the KDK,
so Solutions? (assuming this isnt enough)
just increase the Quirk amounts for the IS Half of the Mobility Tree,
or increase the Core Stats so the AS7 Benefits more so then it does now,
(Remember the AS7 also has lots of Armor Quirks, making it much more Tanky)

The D-DC as no armor quirks. The D-DC uses IS tech, that means more slots for heatsinks each(+1), endo (+7), ferrro (+7), can't use XL (in a meaningfull way). This weapons are bigger and worse than Clan models.

--- Back to the topic

In PTS2.1 the KDK-3 & the AS7 have the same tree, but the AS7 got nerfed for it and the KDK-3 didn't.

In which world does this fact make sence?

Edited by WolvesX, 04 March 2017 - 01:35 PM.

[Maurice Thorez]

Wintersdark, on 04 March 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

This is true, however, IS mechs gained in many cases better movement profiles for their baselines, and as IS mechs in live had *lower* profiles than clan mechs as a rule (as the Clan mechs have larger engines overall) they gain doubly here - and also have the ability to take things like Standard engines without crushing agility losses.

Now, I'm not saying this is perfect! I'm NOT making a "this is all magic balance" statement.

I'm only saying I can't objectively judge balance because there's a lot of moving parts here and PTS is 4v4 + really hard to get matches.

But I can say: Run a HBK-4G(55d/s, 29kph/s), then run a HBK-IIC(45d/s, 20kph/s), the mobility difference is enormous. Huge. Run a Quickdraw(65d/s, 38kph/s), then a Mad Dog(50d/s, 25kph/s). MAD-IIC(38/13) then a BLR(45/20).

It's not *everything*, as there are a couple instances where it's equal - for example the AS7 vs KDK vs KGC or HGN vs HGN-IIC or ON1 vs. ON1-IIC; but in all these cases the IS versions still have more structure, and weapon quirks over their brothers.

Again, I'm NOT saying everything is perfect, or the same, better or worse, but rather that there's a lot of moving parts and actual (real) gameplay is going to be needed to test.

The problem is that the reduction of quirks impacted many mechs firepower capabilities and that is significant regardless of mobility. For instance, the COM-3A might have gained mobility in comparison to other top performers(most of them, but not all clan) and its' main weight class rival in the ACH, but the loss in missile cooldown will mean it will be even more of a knee biter than before. It will not matter much if that Commando can run better circles around its' competitors if all it is offering is death by pinpricks.

Also, I think firepower is more valuable than mobility in general. While better mobility has its' uses for positioning, it does not enhance survivability too much against good players in my experience. I see plenty of players that I have confidence could land that dual gauss, dual PPC alpha, 50 percent or more of the time to instant leg a Commando or most other lights. You would have to ask some comp players if they are in agreement with that general notion, but it would not surprise me if they were.

Edited by Maurice Thorez, 04 March 2017 - 01:50 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

WolvesX, on 04 March 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

Its visualized in the game like this: (PTS2.1) KDK-3 vs AS7-D-DC

Spoiler

---



The D-DC as no armor quirks. The D-DC uses IS tech, that means more slots for heatsinks each(+1), endo (+7), ferrro (+7), can't use XL (in a meaningfull way). This weapons are bigger and worse than Clan models.

--- Back to the topic

In PTS2.1 the KDK-3 & the AS7 have the same tree, but the AS7 got nerfed for it and the KDK-3 didn't.

In which world does this fact make sence?

sorry it does have lots of Structure Quirks, 149Structure more to be Exact, thats alot of extra Structure,
its also this that helps balance the AS7-D-DC to a KDK, not just agility(which is mostly the same) AS7 has better Yaw,

[Acehilator]

Star Commander Horse, on 04 March 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

I have already decided that if the Summoner gets nerfed by the new skill tree I plan to quit MWO.

I'm obviously a paying player, and I have a lot of patience, but my limit has been reached.

http://static.mwomer...an%20Quirks.pdf

Yes, it has been nerfed some. Looks like its gimmicky quirks were too good. Welcome to the GOT NERFED club

Andi Nagasia, on 04 March 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

sorry it does have lots of Structure Quirks, 149Structure more to be Exact, thats alot of extra Structure,
its also this that helps balance the AS7-D-DC to a KDK, not just agility(which is mostly the same) AS7 has better Yaw,

Yeah, and a weapons loadout that works best at sub-250m... sooooooo.... your point?