392 replies to this topic

[WarHippy]

-Pik-, on 09 March 2017 - 07:43 AM, said:

This game needs a shake up.

If this means some guys lose their precious golden icon in their mech list, so be it. If this is the only reason you play you should have quit a long time ago.

Kudos to PGI for following through with their design decision.

Change for the sake of change is not a good thing. They could announce tomorrow that they are deleting all IS mechs because they are impossible to balance against Clan mechs. That would certainly "shake up" the game, but do you really think that would be good for the game? You can fondle PGI's jimmies all you want because you are excited for any change no matter how good or how bad it is, but the rest of us are going to need some convincing.

SuperFunkTron, on 09 March 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

I'm very excited about the system coming out this month. We'll finally be able to start using it and have fixes made to the game after full scale combat data comes in.

Good for you I guess. I don't know about anyone else, but I find it really unwise to be testing things in your live environment let alone being excited about it like you seem to be. Generally speaking as a rule of thumb you should never test in your live environment as the cons typically out weigh the pros by a rather significant margin.

SuperFunkTron, on 09 March 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

To the people claiming that all of those players who own large numbers of mechs are getting slapped and cheated and are upset, please stop. I've bought a good chunk of my mechs, happily, and will continue to buy mechs that interest me, even in the new system.

We won't stop because we are pissed off about it, and because PGI seems hell bent on ignoring the legitimate complaints. You are of course more than welcome to continue throwing money at PGI, but lets not pretend you are going to come close to making up for the sales potentially lost by this change if even a tenth of one percent of the people saying they are not dropping another dime follow through.

SuperFunkTron, on 09 March 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

I get that people are upset about not being able to immediately translate their old mech mastery to the new system, and I can sympathize with that sentiment. However, are there people out there that are planning on playing their first 100 matches each in a different mech? I can't speak for everyone but I'm going to be starting with about 60 million in module refunds probably, and even then, I won't be rushing to upgrade my mechs until I actually plan on using them. I will, sensibly, start with mechs that I use the most, and slowly upgrade accordingly from there. Out of the 115 mechs I have, I am consistently using about 20-30 of them, with occasional sprees in about another 30. There is a huge chunk of my garage that simply sits there. Despite having mastered those mechs, there is no skin off my back from not having the resources to upgrade them right away. I'm not upset by losing the the Master Badge because this isn't a pokemon game, and if I ever really start to feel the need to stick badges on the mechs collecting dust, I'll just play the mechs that I actually enjoy using to get the c-bills to upgrade those dust bunny collectors.

You really don't get it and you never have any time you have posted on this subject.

SuperFunkTron, on 09 March 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

As frustrating as it may be to have to grind c-bills to master mechs in the new system, it provides a nice step wise upgrade system that allows early, cheep access to module abilities like radar deprivation and seismic senor (1.56 million to max out that tree, only 480 thousand to get 1 node of each compared to 12 million for the pair currently). This is a huge benefit to players with lower resources because they can actually use these abilities early on in their MWO career rather than waiting a long time before they even consider dropping the 12 million c-bills to buy those modules for a single mech. Helping prevent a huge gap between advanced and green players alike is a huge benefit for the game as a whole, even if it is causes upset in some groups (not all vets are happy, but there are also the vets that are very happy).

It really doesn't help new players out very much if at all. Even if it did new players are still going to struggle with picking the right nodes starting out. Personally, I would put a great deal more importance on mobility and efficiencies than worrying about the module nodes for radar deprivation and seismic sensor.

SuperFunkTron, on 09 March 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

I'm not speaking for others here, but the costs associated with moving the game forward seem worthwhile to me because we are gaining role customization, decreasing the c-bill gap for old module abilities, decrease mastery costs for players with small stables by removing the rule of 3, and PGI is taking the time to examine mobility based on not only mech size but address those mechs who are known for mobility.

That assumes that we are actually moving forward and that if we are moving forward it is in a good direction.

SuperFunkTron, on 09 March 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

Yes, we lose badges, but we've had at least 2 months now to start saving up for our upgraded our priority mechs so I'm not butt hurt, just looking for how to transition to a system offering a lot more than its taking.

As has been pointed out to you before most of us don't care that we won't be mastered under the new system, but we do care that we are effectively being locked out of what we had before. Having time to do extra work to make a bad system hurt less doesn't change the fact the new system still hurts.

SuperFunkTron, on 09 March 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

To sum it up briefly, there are growing pains here, but it looks to be for the better of the game and community as a whole.

Very very debatable.

Arkhangel, on 09 March 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

Quintus, I've been playing since Closed Beta, So has most of my unit, and we adapt. we don't cry about change. You only consider your mechs "unplayable" because you assume apparently that an Unskilled mech's weapons don't deal damage, or that it couldn't dodge weapons fire, or, you know.. have armor.

Just because they have weapons and armore etc. doesn't mean they are viable(in particular when they have no skills unlocked). Yes, people will adapt, but the way the skill tree is now is a mess, and it is not really in an acceptable place to be released. You can't deny that some mechs are in a really bad spot, and this skill tree does nothing to fix that.

Arkhangel, on 09 March 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

Also... honestly... how many of those mechs do you actually USE? I own over a hundred myself, but there's really only about a fifth of that i actually use semi-constantly, and I'm already storing up xp on them, so it's not really gonna be a problem. i mean, hell, due to the amount of time i've spent in a Centurion, i've been racking up some decent play in a Basiced Victor, and it's competing just fine against mechs i KNOW the enemy pilot has mastered.

Entirely irrelevant. It doesn't matter if someone is or isn't using certain mechs. What matters is how much time and energy they have already put into those mechs and it not being negated by a poorly thought out skill tree.

Arkhangel, on 09 March 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

@David: You do know the new Skill Tree is essentially a mix of both Modules and the old skills too, right... and honestly.. the Modules were really where you got nailed, given most cost more than some IS Heavies.

At least under the old system those modules and the costs associated with them were optional.

[Ryoken]

Arkhangel, on 09 March 2017 - 12:41 PM, said:

@Ryoken: honestly, losing the rule of three is a biggy for me too, since it'll let PGI add in those mechs that only ever had one or two variants.. hell, said mechs would probably also get cheaper mechpacks because of that too.

Ostsol, Ostroc & Ostscout! #pgipls Also let us choose and put 30% C-Bill bonus and/or 10% Exp bonus on every mech we want for MC!

A good friend of mine who was always hampered because he did not have the time to grind C-Bills for the three mechs needed also awaits the patch to return to the game, so he can now fully level the mechs he likes. So there might also be some more players coming back.

Edited by Ryoken, 09 March 2017 - 01:20 PM.

[Ryoken]

WarHippy, on 09 March 2017 - 01:11 PM, said:

Entirely irrelevant. It doesn't matter if someone is or isn't using certain mechs. What matters is how much time and energy they have already put into those mechs and it not being negated by a poorly thought out skill tree.

It is not that you loose all that time and energy. You still will have all those C-Bills and XP on those mechs. And if I did get Kanajashis video right you can still aquire most nodes with even less C-Bills/XP compared to the old system. So your efforts are not negated, in fact you will have a very solid start to further develop your mechs. And doing so by playing the game should be fun right? Because if you do not like playing that mech/chassis you won't have to as you can master every single mech on its own.

Only if you want to pokemech and Master every single mech just to never use it again you might experience an increase of effort to do so. Yet i think the pokemech mindset should not be the focus of MWO - still I deem it doable as people with this mindset now have an even bigger task and long time motivation. If not they should question if pokemech even is their playstyle for real - or if they only have optimized for a broken system.

Edited by Ryoken, 09 March 2017 - 01:31 PM.

[Fetherator]

LIVE situation is:

1st Those who spent a lot of cbills in mechs and a few modules, have a lot of mechs with a few modules.
If they are mastered, they dont get maxed because the lag of modules.

2nd Those who spent a lot of cbills in modules, have few mechs with all modules.
If they are mastered, they will get maxed because they have modules.

After 21st March situation will be:

The 1st will still have all their Mechs plus refund for the few modules.
They can put skillpoints into their skilltree. They get a few mastered and many not fully maxed but playable mechs.

The 2nd will still have a few mechs plus refund for their many modules.
They can put 91 skillpoints into their skilltree. They get all their mechs mastered.

Hint for the ones without many Modules:
modules are still for sale
or just dont and save ALL the cbills you deny to have for the new skilltree

Edited by Fetherator, 09 March 2017 - 01:38 PM.

[JC Daxion]

Sereglach, on 08 March 2017 - 10:19 PM, said:

PGI has had their ups and downs, but they even stated (Russ can be directly quoted on Twitter) that the grind for a mech in the old system "is going to be about equal" to the grind in the new system. That's patently false beyond any shadow of a doubt. That in and of itself has plenty of players irate.

Funny, I bought a king crab, Enforcer and urban for my IS account, and a Warhawk, adder and Kitfox for my clan account.. By the time i finish leveling them it will have cost me far less than before, and i did not need to buy mechs i had no plan on using, NOR level.

So how is this not less money and time?

[Trev Firestorm]

Ryoken, on 09 March 2017 - 01:29 PM, said:

It is not that you loose all that time and energy. You still will have all those C-Bills and XP on those mechs. And if I did get Kanajashis video right you can still aquire most nodes with even less C-Bills/XP compared to the old system. So your efforts are not negated, in fact you will have a very solid start to further develop your mechs. And doing so by playing the game should be fun right? Because if you do not like playing that mech/chassis you won't have to as you can master every single mech on its own.

Only if you want to pokemech and Master every single mech just to never use it again you might experience an increase of effort to do so. Yet i think the pokemech mindset should not be the focus of MWO - still I deem it doable as people with this mindset now have an even bigger task and long time motivation. If not they should question if pokemech even is their playstyle for real - or if they only have optimized for a broken system.

This is flat out false, we required no cbill investment in the old system therefore no we do not get to keep what we have and thus that time and effort is largely negated because our previously acquired efficiencies are now locked behind a new wall. Those of us who have a large number of mechs (but no/few modules) and play them on a rotational basis are suddenly locked to minimum spec when we should be 50% mastery by xp costs, 120+% by comparable functionality.

Edited by Trev Firestorm, 09 March 2017 - 01:42 PM.

[JC Daxion]

Arkhangel, on 08 March 2017 - 11:41 PM, said:

actually, it more shows how disconnected they are from salty whiners who don't like change.

also.... you guys that are doing so do realize roughly 10% of MWO's player base actually posts on the forums, right?

that number is way high.. If it was 1% i would be shocked seeing active player base that plays more than 50-100 matches a month is 25-30k people.. Forums have maybe 30-40 very active folks. then the rest are random posters.. maybe 1-2k? that is 1-2%, the active t1's are maybe .25-.5 of the base.

[process]

JC Daxion, on 09 March 2017 - 01:37 PM, said:

Funny, I bought a king crab, Enforcer and urban for my IS account, and a Warhawk, adder and Kitfox for my clan account.. By the time i finish leveling them it will have cost me far less than before, and i did not need to buy mechs i had no plan on using, NOR level.

So how is this not less money and time?

It's a savings if you only intend of leveling 1 variant per chassis, which is fine moving forward. It just kinda sucks that those of us with 3 variants per chassis will suddenly have mechs that are only 1/3 mastered, instead of having an ability to create 1 fully mastered variant.

Edited by process, 09 March 2017 - 01:43 PM.

[JC Daxion]

Appogee, on 09 March 2017 - 03:52 AM, said:

Plus, you'll be leveling your Mechs against leveled meta Mechs, without access to Radar Dep and Seismic or even Speed Tweak for many many more matches than you do now.

a new player could unlock that in about 10 matches.. speed tweak will take a bit longer, but then again now speed tweak takes almost 70k XP to unlock the first one.. but ok...

[JC Daxion]

process, on 09 March 2017 - 01:43 PM, said:

It's a savings if you only intend of leveling 1 variant per chassis, which is fine moving forward. It just kinda sucks that those of us with 3 variants per chassis will suddenly have mechs that are only 1/3 mastered, instead of having an ability to create 1 fully mastered variant.

how many mechs do you own? I personally have 100, Most of them are the rule of 3.. Even though i like my mechs, i hardly have time to play all of them.. Even one a day would take me about 4 months to play um all.

I'll state again.. my IS account i spent about 1 billion credits.. i have about 15 mechs i play. My clan account i spent about 250k, I have around the same, well 12 i think. (i saved money and skipped buying extra mechs i didn't need and have enough to master the ones i like on both)

1 account cost me 1 billion and 4 years.. the other account 1 year, and i split time with a second account.. What good are extra mechs if you don't have the time to play um? All the old way was, was a huge grind and got me to spend money on mech bays, because the mechs take so long to earn, that i did not want to sell them. IS account cost me 125 dollars, CLan account cost 20 dollars under new system.. aka i planned only using one mech for the last 4 months. A couple i have extra mechs though for different builds.

[Ryoken]

Trev Firestorm, on 09 March 2017 - 01:39 PM, said:

This is flat out false, we required no cbill investment in the old system therefore no we do not get to keep what we have and thus that time and effort is largely negated because our previously acquired efficiencies are now locked behind a new wall. Those of us who have a large number of mechs (but no/few modules) and play them on a rotational basis are suddenly locked to minimum spec when we should be 50% mastery by xp costs, 120+% by comparable functionality.

If you have that many mechs and you play all your mechs on rotational basis you should have enough xp and cbills to master them as well in the new system as mechs don't stop generating xp and money once you have reached master level.

So really only those you put aside and never played them again after mastering would not have enough xp to master them under the new system. Yet as you still have a lot of xp allready on those mechs you will be able to reach most of the crucial nodes under the new system - so I hardly would call them minimum spec.All the more as the new skill tree system gradually improves your mechs in contrast to the old system that was lame at start and got brutal bonuses when eliting the mech by doubling basic bonuses on top of that! The master module slot was just the icing on the cake.

[WarHippy]

Ryoken, on 09 March 2017 - 01:29 PM, said:

It is not that you loose all that time and energy. You still will have all those C-Bills and XP on those mechs. And if I did get Kanajashis video right you can still aquire most nodes with even less C-Bills/XP compared to the old system. So your efforts are not negated, in fact you will have a very solid start to further develop your mechs. And doing so by playing the game should be fun right? Because if you do not like playing that mech/chassis you won't have to as you can master every single mech on its own.

No, you can't. Skills cost nothing before. Now they cost 60k a piece. Depending on the mech you need anywhere from 40-60+ skills to get similar results to the old tree. Taking an average of 50 skill points and 60k a pop that is an extra 3 million for every mech I need to come up with. If I don't have the c-bills to do that I am effectively locked out of what was previously earned. Yes, we are getting our XP back, but that is irrelevant without the c-bills to use it. Playing is fun generally speaking, however I do not like leveling all that much in any game. With this system I am effectively having to re-level everything again. That isn't what I would call fun. Adding additional "levels" is fine, but essentially taking away what was previously earned is not acceptable to me. I am not getting a "solid start" I'm getting a new hole to dig myself out of.

Ryoken, on 09 March 2017 - 01:29 PM, said:

Only if you want to pokemech and Master every single mech just to never use it again you might experience an increase of effort to do so. Yet i think the pokemech mindset should not be the focus of MWO - still I deem it doable as people with this mindset now have an even bigger task and long time motivation. If not they should question if pokemech even is their playstyle for real - or if they only have optimized for a broken system.

Pokemechmay not be ideal or what is the best solution going forward, but that is what PGI has been using as a business model for years at this point. It seems like a rather dumb move to punish those that participated in that don't you think?

[Arkhangel]

@Ryoken: Gotta love cold hard logic and math.

@Warhippy: what you fail to realize is really the Skill Tree that's incoming is also slightly modifying the mech itself, which honestly.. well.. if you know the lore, it takes techs days, weeks, or even months for tech refits. give the poor guys the pay they deserve for busting their asses for us for free for years XD

Edited by Arkhangel, 09 March 2017 - 02:09 PM.

[Sereglach]

JC Daxion, on 09 March 2017 - 01:37 PM, said:

Funny, I bought a king crab, Enforcer and urban for my IS account, and a Warhawk, adder and Kitfox for my clan account.. By the time i finish leveling them it will have cost me far less than before, and i did not need to buy mechs i had no plan on using, NOR level.

So how is this not less money and time?

Cute, you're comparing 1 mech vs. 3 mechs and trying to call it equal. I've got over 100 mechs in my account and every last mech I own is mastered. There are many people out there who also have entire roster of hundreds of fully mastered mechs. Now, try comparing 1 mech vs. 1 mech and tell me it's the same grind or cheaper. It's not . . . in fact it's not even remotely close.

JC Daxion, on 09 March 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

how many mechs do you own? I personally have 100, Most of them are the rule of 3.. Even though i like my mechs, i hardly have time to play all of them.. Even one a day would take me about 4 months to play um all.

Comparing apples to oranges, again, as the saying goes. How many of those mechs are mastered, since you're saying "most of them are rule of 3" which implies you didn't get them to master, just to complete basics (elites for some) in order to master a select few that you want to play. That's a completely different comparison.

JC Daxion, on 09 March 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

I'll state again.. my IS account i spent about 1 billion credits.. i have about 15 mechs i play. My clan account i spent about 250k, I have around the same, well 12 i think. (i saved money and skipped buying extra mechs i didn't need and have enough to master the ones i like on both)

1 account cost me 1 billion and 4 years.. the other account 1 year, and i split time with a second account.. What good are extra mechs if you don't have the time to play um? All the old way was, was a huge grind and got me to spend money on mech bays, because the mechs take so long to earn, that i did not want to sell them. IS account cost me 125 dollars, CLan account cost 20 dollars under new system.. aka i planned only using one mech for the last 4 months. A couple i have extra mechs though for different builds.

Trying to use this to justify PGI's grossly expanded grind on players is, frankly, foolhardy. PGI makes money off of people buying mech packs, mech bays, etc. Saying that people should just adapt to having smaller rosters of mechs they play is completely counterintuitive to PGI's monetization schema.
It would be delusional from a monetary standpoint for PGI to encourage people to have less mechs in their roster.

Also, as stated many times before, you're going off of a 1 mech vs. 3 mech system, which means nothing for the hoards of veteran players who want to actually keep those 3 mechs, did keep those 3 mechs, and believe their mechs should at least be as skilled out as they were before.

[process]

JC Daxion, on 09 March 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

how many mechs do you own? I personally have 100, Most of them are the rule of 3.. Even though i like my mechs, i hardly have time to play all of them.. Even one a day would take me about 4 months to play um all.

I'll state again.. my IS account i spent about 1 billion credits.. i have about 15 mechs i play. My clan account i spent about 250k, I have around the same, well 12 i think. (i saved money and skipped buying extra mechs i didn't need and have enough to master the ones i like on both)

1 account cost me 1 billion and 4 years.. the other account 1 year, and i split time with a second account.. What good are extra mechs if you don't have the time to play um? All the old way was, was a huge grind and got me to spend money on mech bays, because the mechs take so long to earn, that i did not want to sell them. IS account cost me 125 dollars, CLan account cost 20 dollars under new system.. aka i planned only using one mech for the last 4 months. A couple i have extra mechs though for different builds.

Currently about 230, fully mastered with a few duplicates. You're right, I don't play all of them, and some I haven't touched in months. It's less about the practicality of playing hundreds of mechs, and more about having the choice to do so.

If I had known this is the system we would arrive at, I would never have slogged through the rule of 3. The decision I'll be facing in a couple weeks is whether to sell 2/3 of my mechs and abandon their years worth of XP, just so I can focus on re-mastering the 1/3 that I keep.

Edited by process, 09 March 2017 - 02:10 PM.

[Ryoken]

WarHippy, on 09 March 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

No, you can't. Skills cost nothing before. Now they cost 60k a piece. Depending on the mech you need anywhere from 40-60+ skills to get similar results to the old tree. Taking an average of 50 skill points and 60k a pop that is an extra 3 million for every mech I need to come up with. If I don't have the c-bills to do that I am effectively locked out of what was previously earned. Yes, we are getting our XP back, but that is irrelevant without the c-bills to use it. Playing is fun generally speaking, however I do not like leveling all that much in any game. With this system I am effectively having to re-level everything again. That isn't what I would call fun. Adding additional "levels" is fine, but essentially taking away what was previously earned is not acceptable to me. I am not getting a "solid start" I'm getting a new hole to dig myself out of.
Pokemechmay not be ideal or what is the best solution going forward, but that is what PGI has been using as a business model for years at this point. It seems like a rather dumb move to punish those that participated in that don't you think?

I do not see it as punishing players. It's like Blizzard is adding lvl 61-80 to their skill system that formerly only had 60 levels and people would start complaining that they want to have all their previously lvl 60 characters automatically moved to lvl 80.

If you do not like leveling and grinding all those different mechs simply don't do it, you don't have to any more.

If you enjoy playing a single mech fully skilled, enjoy because you most certainly will have enough cbills and xp to also have it maxed out under the new system.

If you would enjoy grinding all those different mechs you could also be happy as you now can further level on and grind those mechs.

Edited by Ryoken, 09 March 2017 - 02:17 PM.

[Lupis Volk]

PGI, you have a long history of half arsing ideas, mechanics and updates. This is something big, what your implementing is a proof of concept. This skill tree deserves to be implemented when it's fully realised not when it's barely past the drawing board. I beg of you postpone the release of it indefinitely or for as along as you need to fully realise it.

We deserve as much as the players and payers of your mech packs. Would you not rather have us praise you for a fully realised mechanic instead of slagging off at you for another half baked monstrosity?

The skill tree in it's current form from what i hear shatters any sort of balance between the Inner Sphere and the Clans, the IS losing the bulk of it's quirks, quirks that many of their mechs need to be playable let alone competitive. While the Clans keep all of thiers for what little they have. It is unfair for the Inner Sphere players to be constantly beaten by you has the Clanners sit on the side lines snearing at us.

It's in both us the players interest and yours to postpone the Skill tree update so you can flesh it out and fully realise it. Isn't that what a test server is for, not some glorified hype generator?

[process]

Ryoken, on 09 March 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

I do not see it as punishing players. It's like Blizzard is adding lvl 61-80 to their skill system that formerly only had 60 levels and people would start complaining that they want to have all their previously lvl 60 characters automatically moved to lvl 80.

I've never played WOW, but that analogy only works if:

1. Blizzard previously required you to get 3 characters to level 40 before one of them could get to level 60.
2. Blizzard made you pay to level up.
3. Blizzard expected players to have hundreds of characters.

[WarHippy]

Arkhangel, on 09 March 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

@Ryoken: Gotta love cold hard logic and math.

@Warhippy: what you fail to realize is really the Skill Tree that's incoming is also slightly modifying the mech itself, which honestly.. well.. if you know the lore, it takes techs days, weeks, or even months for tech refits. give the poor guys the pay they deserve for busting their asses for us for free for years XD

Lets not bring up lore as that went out the window in this game day freaking one. Lets also not forget mastering something doesn't require a financial investment only time and practice.

Ryoken, on 09 March 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

I do not see it as punishing players. It's like Blizzard is adding lvl 61-80 to their skill system that formerly only had 60 levels and people would start complaining that they want to have all their previously lvl 60 characters automatically moved to lvl 80.

Clearly you are not understanding what I said. I said I was fine with adding more levels(61-80) what I have a problem with is Blizzard telling me I now need to give them 3 million gold to have my levels 1-60 back. If you don't see that as punishing the players then you are very very dense.

Ryoken, on 09 March 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

If you do not like leveling and grinding all those different mechs simply don't do it, you don't have to any more.

The problem is that I do have those mechs. If I bought it I'm going to use it. I may not like the level grind, but I still do it so I have access to everything so I can do what I want when I want.

Ryoken, on 09 March 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

If you enjoy playing a single mech fully skilled, enjoy because you most certainly will have enough cbills and xp to also have it maxed out under the new system.

Except I don't have just one mech that I like to play. What I enjoy is being able to play many different mechs, and the new system punishes me for that.

Ryoken, on 09 March 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

If you would enjoy grinding all those different mechs you could also be happy as you now can further level on and grind those mechs.

Again, the problem I and many others have is the re-grind part not the additional grind part.

[Tordin]

Glad its going to go forward. Comfort zoners froathe with salty fury under their skull hatch. Because their boating options got a bit hampered to allow mixed/ gneralist builds to have a chance. There could be improvements to the skill trees to have those "gate" nodes make sense to get even if you dont want em, to hook into the ones behind that you desire so much. Lets see what they have changed before ringing the doomsday bells, shall we? There are still a chance pgi might screw this up you know, then you can vent all your anger and sa "told you so!"

It might not be the godly new system all could dream of but even in its infancy, its tons better than the mess of a system we have now.