137 replies to this topic

[Curccu]

Probably Not, on 12 March 2017 - 07:05 AM, said:

Or, you know, you could just pop your usual dose of Adderall or whatever it is you use to keep your ADHD in check and watch the damn thing.

Nothing to do with me having or not having ADHD (Not to mention this is kinda insulting to those that REALLY have it.) I just have better things to do than watch 19 minute QQ monologue.

[Dr Mlem]

All I took from this, is that he really needs to clean his place up.

[El Bandito]

oldradagast, on 12 March 2017 - 10:27 AM, said:

Exactly. People also forget that an online game can "die" very slowly. Just because the servers are still on and you can still buy a mech-pack doesn't mean the game is doing well. It hasn't been in some time, if player numbers and PGI's latest regrind cash-grab attempt are any indication.

The difference here is that players had left MWO previously because there wasn't much being done--the development was static, aside from new mechs, in contrast to what PGI had been promising since Closed Beta.
This time people are threatening to leave because things are being done. Hence I believe this storm is much easier to weather than that of the mass exodus of 2013-2014, and a lot of people who are threatening to quit are being Chicken Littles. I do not see huge long term negative impact resulting from this change.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 March 2017 - 10:36 AM.

[GrimRiver]

Probably Not, on 12 March 2017 - 07:05 AM, said:

Also, Russ Bullock thinks people who spent ~700 dollars on online stompy robots are cheapskates.

He was talking about people that is sitting on 100,000,000+'s of c-bills and not spending them, he even stated so.

[oldradagast]

El Bandito, on 12 March 2017 - 10:30 AM, said:

The difference here is that players had left MWO previously because there wasn't much being done--the development was static, aside from new mechs, in contrast to what PGI had been promising since Closed Beta.
This time people are threatening to leave because things are being done. Hence I believe this storm is much easier to weather than that of the mass exodus of 2013-2014, and a lot of people who are threatening to quit are being Chicken Littles.

There's no evidence of that last statement. People have seen the skill maze, gathered the data, and been greatly unhappy with the results. That is not "being a chicken little." If you don't like the game, you probably stop playing it, and you certainly stop spending money on it. Many people have made it clear that when the skill maze goes live, it will be much harder for them to like the game. Again, this is not "being a chicken little." It is an informed decision based on facts - facts that have been presented on the PTS, and the same facts which will be going live in less than 2 weeks thanks to PGI's stubborn inability to admit they don't understand their own game.

I'm very tired of people just not getting it. Yes, MWO will still exist, in a diminished state, after the skill maze goes live. No, the servers are not all going to go dark March 22nd. But that's not the point. The game is going to suffer a serious setback in balance and fun (not to mention revenue and players) with more grind being the only "compensation" and for no good reason. That's why people are angry, not that "oh, nos - MWO is going to die in 2 weeks, tops!"

Edited by oldradagast, 12 March 2017 - 10:40 AM.

[Johnny Z]

oldradagast, on 12 March 2017 - 10:38 AM, said:

There's no evidence of that last statement. People have seen the skill maze, gathered the data, and been greatly unhappy with the results. That is not "being a chicken little." If you don't like the game, you probably stop playing it, and you certainly stop spending money on it. Many people have made it clear that when the skill maze goes live, it will be much harder for them to like the game. Again, this is not "being a chicken little." It is an informed decision based on facts - facts that have been presented on the PTS, and the same facts which will be going live in less than 2 weeks thanks to PGI's stubborn inability to admit they don't understand their own game.

I'm very tired of people just not getting it. Yes, MWO will still exist, in a diminished state, after the skill maze goes live. No, the servers are not all going to go dark March 22nd. But that's not the point. The game is going to suffer a serious setback in balance and fun with more grind being the only "compensation" and for no good reason. That's why people are angry, not that "oh, nos - MWO is going to die in 2 weeks, tops!"

Maybe your right. Have to see after the update and things settle.

Personally lack of a first person mechbay they showed at Mechcon for their new game, but have not added to this game, something that Star Citizen started with before any ships could fly basically, is more of a worry, among other missing elements this game needs to even be considered a full game.

Having a proper mech/skill tree is an excellent step though. No complaints about that here.

I mean this game doesn't even have player character creation yet. Something every modern full game has...

Hard to take this complaining about a skill tree finally being added seriously.

Edited by Johnny Z, 12 March 2017 - 10:45 AM.

[RestosIII]

Johnny Z, on 12 March 2017 - 10:42 AM, said:

Personally lack of a first person mechbay they showed at Mechcon for their new game, but have not added to this game, something that Star Citizen started with before any ships could fly basically, is more of a worry, among other missing elemeents this game needs to even be considered a full game.

You have wildly different priorities than me or anyone I know that plays this game. Colorblind support, HTAL, and engine optimization are my top priorities TBH.

[El Bandito]

oldradagast, on 12 March 2017 - 10:38 AM, said:

There's no evidence of that last statement. People have seen the skill maze, gathered the data, and been greatly unhappy with the results. That is not "being a chicken little." If you don't like the game, you probably stop playing it, and you certainly stop spending money on it. Many people have made it clear that when the skill maze goes live, it will be much harder for them to like the game. Again, this is not "being a chicken little." It is an informed decision based on facts - facts that have been presented on the PTS, and the same facts which will be going live in less than 2 weeks thanks to PGI's stubborn inability to admit they don't understand their own game.

There is also no evidence that things will be as bleak as you claim. PGI was taking notes from us, as evidenced by two versions of the PTS changes for the new skill tree, one of them a major overhaul and consolidation of the weapons tree. They are still working on it even now, and they will continue to work on it post release.

Yes, there are obvious faults, of many we had pointed out, but those are within fixable parameters. Flipping out pre-release like the OP is just immature.

[Johnny Z]

RestosIII, on 12 March 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

You have wildly different priorities than me or anyone I know that plays this game. Colorblind support, HTAL, and engine optimization are my top priorities TBH.

I think its fairly obvious where some players priorities are. Being drama queens on the forums, being foremost among them. That and disrespecting anything this game adds.

So ya I doubt the ones making all the drama will agree with much I have to say. I would worry if there was agreement. Thanks for putting me at ease.

Edited by Johnny Z, 12 March 2017 - 10:48 AM.

[RestosIII]

Johnny Z, on 12 March 2017 - 10:46 AM, said:

I think its fairly obvious where some players priorities are. Being drama queens on the forums, being foremost among them. That and disrespecting anything this game adds.

I'm glad PGI is replacing the skill tree. It's a good thing. But doing it as it is now is just asking for a major backlash. It needs more work. I actually like the base of it, it just... Should be an actual tree, not a maze that requires you to sacrifice points into useless skills (Laser skills on a mech without energy hardpoints, for instance, to get heat reduction skills) and not incredibly expensive to respec mechs if you do something like sell your variant because you need room in your mechbay.

[oldradagast]

El Bandito, on 12 March 2017 - 10:46 AM, said:

There is also no evidence that things will be as bleak as you claim. PGI was taking notes from us, as evidenced by two versions of the PTS changes for the new skill tree, one of them a major overhaul and consolidation of the weapons tree. They are still working on it even now, and they will continue to work on it post release.

You mean like Faction Warfare, which they've been "working on" for years, and which is still a wasteland of fail?

Look, you can play the "nobody knows until it actually happens" card, but when the majority of people say a change to the game is going to make it a lot less fun for them AND list a pile of facts to back up that claim, pretending "nobody knows what's going to happen when it goes live!" is just being a contrarian for its own sake.

Yeah, sure - MWO isn't going to go dark March 22nd. Nobody said that would happen. But we're still talking about dealing serious damage to game's balance and the fun a good chunk of the game's already dwindling population is having for literally no good reason. PGI is hell-bent on shoving these changes through, facts be damned, and that - and the upcoming fallout - is the problem.

Edited by oldradagast, 12 March 2017 - 10:54 AM.

[El Bandito]

RestosIII, on 12 March 2017 - 10:50 AM, said:

I'm glad PGI is replacing the skill tree. It's a good thing. But doing it as it is now is just asking for a major backlash. It needs more work. I actually like the base of it, it just... Should be an actual tree, not a maze that requires you to sacrifice points into useless skills (Laser skills on a mech without energy hardpoints, for instance, to get heat reduction skills)

That's cause PGI intends to let you have only limited amount of heat reduction for non-energy builds. It helps to curb over-specialized builds a bit. You want to be more specialized? Then sacrifice more nodes.

oldradagast, on 12 March 2017 - 10:53 AM, said:

You mean like Faction Warfare, which they've been "working on" for years, and which is still a wasteland of fail?

Look, you can play the "nobody knows until it actually happens" card, but when the majority of people say a change to the game is going to make it a lot less fun for them AND list a pile of facts to back up that claim, pretending "nobody knows what's going to happen when it goes live!" is just being a contrarian for its own sake.

Majority of people? The forumites are but a small fraction of the entire player base, and those who actually did get into PTS to test the changes themselves (myself included) are tiny fraction of the forumites. And in the forums I see more forumites who prefer to try out this new skill tree live than retaining the old one. So do not try this "majority" card with me.

CW and the new skill tree are totally different things BTW, but that's for another thread.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 March 2017 - 10:59 AM.

[Johnny Z]

RestosIII, on 12 March 2017 - 10:50 AM, said:

I'm glad PGI is replacing the skill tree. It's a good thing. But doing it as it is now is just asking for a major backlash. It needs more work. I actually like the base of it, it just... Should be an actual tree, not a maze that requires you to sacrifice points into useless skills (Laser skills on a mech without energy hardpoints, for instance, to get heat reduction skills) and not incredibly expensive to respec mechs if you do something like sell your variant because you need room in your mechbay.

I am sure they can juggle it around quite easily later. Only live and months of use will show some flaws, they know that. Something entirely new in a game with as many variables as this game and that's just the way it is.

Most likely this has been in testing for months so it shouldn't be to bad.

Edited by Johnny Z, 12 March 2017 - 10:59 AM.

[RestosIII]

El Bandito, on 12 March 2017 - 10:53 AM, said:

That's cause PGI intends to let you have only limited amount of heat reduction for non-energy builds. It helps to curb over-specialized builds a bit. You want to be more specialized? Then sacrifice more nodes.

Then make the system have a diminishing returns system, where the more points I put in, the less valuable each node is. That way I at least feel like I'm spending C-Bills on something I want, instead of being forced to clutter my mech with squirks that literally don't do it any good.

Johnny Z, on 12 March 2017 - 10:56 AM, said:

I am sure they can juggle it around quite easily later.

I'm just worried they won't, or that it'll take them a year since they're going to be focused on new tech in the coming months. That, and the prices of everything are still going to ruin me. I sell my mechs relatively often for room to try out other mechs, and then rebuy them. With the new system, I'd have to completely regrind the C-Bills and XP to remaster them when I do that, which is a heck of an inconvenience.

Edited by RestosIII, 12 March 2017 - 10:58 AM.

[Johnny Z]

RestosIII, on 12 March 2017 - 10:56 AM, said:

Then make the system have a diminishing returns system, where the more points I put in, the less valuable each node is. That way I at least feel like I'm spending C-Bills on something I want, instead of being forced to clutter my mech with squirks that literally don't do it any good.



I'm just worried they won't, or that it'll take them a year since they're going to be focused on new tech in the coming months. That, and the prices of everything are still going to ruin me. I sell my mechs relatively often for room to try out other mechs, and then rebuy them. With the new system, I'd have to completely regrind the C-Bills and XP to remaster them when I do that, which is a heck of an inconvenience.

I'm worried they will put to much time into it when other content needs to be added instead. Not to worried since its a game and there are other games, but point made.

Like mechs there is likely a small team working on this while other things get done. None of it done very fast if the past is any indicator. But that's easy to say. The entire industry is in a slow work mode. Sleeping at the desk is a huge joke.



The video game industry may have slowed to a halt, but on the bright side napping at work equipment industry is booming.

Edited by Johnny Z, 12 March 2017 - 11:11 AM.

[El Bandito]

RestosIII, on 12 March 2017 - 10:56 AM, said:

Then make the system have a diminishing returns system, where the more points I put in, the less valuable each node is. That way I at least feel like I'm spending C-Bills on something I want, instead of being forced to clutter my mech with squirks that literally don't do it any good.

Same thing in the end, so quit worrying over it. Either way you are sacrificing nodes. I swear, **** like this is the least of our worries for the new skill tree.

[oldradagast]

El Bandito, on 12 March 2017 - 10:53 AM, said:

Majority of people? The forumites are but a small fraction of the entire player base, and those who actually did get into PTS to test the changes themselves (myself included) are tiny fraction of the forumites. And in the forums I see more forumites who prefer to try out this new skill tree live than retaining the old one. So do not try this "majority" card with me.

CW and the new skill tree are totally different things BTW, but that's for another thread.

Sorry, not buying it. The "people who like the skill tree" only came crawling out of the wood-work after the FACTS presented by a large number of actual testers blasted the implementation to hell and back. Now, after people are rightly roasting PGI for their silliness, we suddenly have people claiming, "Oh, the skill tree is wonderful!" while failing to back any of those claims up with data. These people are also, not surprisingly, the same people who always oppose the majority and/or always go along with everything PGI does.

The facts are that the skill tree is a sloppy mess of a design that does nothing to curb boating, pinpoint long range damage, or anything else. It just adds a layer of confusion and grind into a game that desperately needs CONTENT and ROLES. The skill maze also makes for yet another obstacle in the way of new players.

As I said, I'm not buying it, because this behavior is everywhere these days. The moment a group of people rally behind an idea with facts to support them, there's a segment of the population with an unhealthy need to be contrarian just for the sake of "opposing the majority" or "proving how smart they are." I haven't seen a single argument in favor of the actual skill maze - not some theoretical one that PGI may create someday - that was worth a hill of beans and that amounted to more than "facts = whining" and "change is always good."

Edited by oldradagast, 12 March 2017 - 11:05 AM.

[El Bandito]

oldradagast, on 12 March 2017 - 11:04 AM, said:

Sorry, not buying it.

Well, I am not buying what you are selling. People are not saying the new skill tree is wonderful, as much as saying that the new skill tree deserves a chance. As PGI can tweak it after it goes live, I have far less issue with it, than the potential loss of this change.

So I agree to disagree. OP still look silly in my eyes.

[MechaBattler]

Probably Not, on 12 March 2017 - 07:15 AM, said:

Well, whatever. Have fun with ridiculous queue times when a sizable chunk of the playerbase leaves.



If you'd watch the video, you'd clearly see and hear the moment Russ Bullock drops the "cheapskate" bomb.

[Mechsniper]

I took a break from playing after the 1st PTS session ended and PGI seemed to listen like a brick wall to all the feedback. After getting to this point and seeing the NGNG interview where I was termed a "cheapskate". I am currently uninstalling. I will check back in a few months, but I am guessing Russ' ego has shot MWO in the head, not the foot this time. Own one of every module in the game, and several of many. Kept enough to outfit 4 lances in my FP drop deck with the most commonly used weapons. still I will only get a little over 200 million cbills back and the majority of my 160 mechs that were all mastered completely will not be after this change. Cheapskate. How much MC I spent on camo and paint perms for my mechs, as well as mech bays... wow. Cbills are grind based, but cheapskate... WTF? I spent almost the last year buying and mastering mechs to await faction play to mature and be completed by pgi. No more. The skill tree looks to be an impending flustercuck and to hear PGI being so against their player base is astoundingly bad. White knights defending the skill tree and PGI's actions and PR at this point are such trolls, they aren't worth responding to. PGI take note, because while I may be a minor whale compared to some, without those supporting the game at my level and above your out of work soon. Half heartedly acting like insults to us are a joke when the game was in its current state was bad form. Fix things, and we return. Don't and I doubt MW5 ever gets off the ground.....

Edited by Mechsniper, 12 March 2017 - 11:23 AM.