369 replies to this topic

[Edward Hazen]

Wow, I and my unit mates were looking forward to the skill tree, since we lost the desire to have to buy and level three Mechs in order to master the one that you wanted, yes this is a bit less of a problem with Omni Mechs because you can move the pods around and put basically the same loadout on all three variants. Anyway, this sucks, our community has a bad personality disorder and we seem to have driven PGI mad and they just picked up their toys and went home. At least the new Mass Effect will be out soon, so other than a game every once in a while, I will be taking a break. I will keep an eye out for the new tech though, although whining and crying will probably kill that too.

[K19]

Intel new guns ??? you talk this day???? plz plz

[Bluttrunken]

I hope the skill tree still isn't too far away! The concept is sound and the overall impact of the design should be positive especially in regards to retention. Being able to concentrate on one variant should make the game more engaging. No more forced leveling of variants you otherwise wouldn't have bothered with!

I also had fun tooling around with the skills. Albeit confusing in layout the skill tree had some nice trade-offs and it was interesting to decide on which traits my mech should have. Should I make him mobile or tanky? How much Sensor Improvements, Radar Derp, Seismics etc. should I give him? On which nodes should I concentrate for my weapons? Etc. The concept is sound!

Please don't go back to the drawing board just to make a one-dimensional skill tree for the dim-wits which just want to skill some additional damage for their boats. Thanks!

(The only big problem I saw with the skill tree was clearly the 6 consumables slot. 6 coolshots? no thx)

Edited by Bluttrunken, 14 March 2017 - 08:09 AM.

[generalazure]

I approve of this message!

... just in case anyone is keeping count of positive/negative user feedback

[Dr Angst]

Wow.

Took a while but I'm glad feedback managed to delay an incomplete and flaud system into the game.

I was so prepared to quit the game but I guess I'm back instead.

Cheers!

[metallio]

If you would take this opportunity to add uniqueness to individual mech variants it'd be stellar.

For one, you CAN make individual skill trees for each mech. It's plenty of work but...it's literally your work and it's not the coding that's an issue.

I would suggest instead, however, that you just make placeholders for quirk style nodes that you can change whenever and however you want. Just make sure that the location exists and you can even leave it blank for now and activate/put text etc in there at a later date. Hero mechs could all come with their own flavor, preferably not firepower related. Cyclops gets +sensor range etc that sort of thing. You can skip it if you don't care, but it's the simplest way to make mechs unique.

Balancing is easily done, as mentioned earlier, with a line of code that allocates maximum number of skill points. 91 for most mechs, less for OP mechs, more for bad mechs. Easy changes, individually different mechs. Maybe hero mechs just get one more skill point available...but some flavor would be wonderful, like one more skill point available and a unique node that makes the lights flash on K9. That sort of thing .

Seriously, have you seen what people pay for hats on Team Fortress? Flavor would make this game something special. The decals are already popular.

[C E Dwyer]

Thank you for finally listening, and hopefully only delaying it.

Most people recognise the need for a new skill system and want one.

I do understand your reasoning behind the nodes, and choices, and I agree totally that allowing us to cherry pick what we want for less skill points, is the wrong way to go, just the method chosen wasn't working.

The whole thing needs streamlining, tidying up so it looks presentable, and if you are going to insist on a pathway system, consider which skills connected with old modules are redundant, and wouldn't be missed if they were removed,really look at how the nodes connect with each other in a logical way.

Less skill points and being able to progress in every direction, from a hex, and not just down, should also be explored.

I find it rather saddening that once again the community has to raise a complete **** storm before we're listened to, it should never get this far. The whole point of a test server is to find issues that you as developers might have over looked, its why we do it.

Most people, even those not enamoured with the method you used, could see that with further development, and refinement, it was going to be a usable, and better system than we currently had.

What got under the skin of those people that could see it's benefits, ultimately felt they had not option but to make dire threats of doom, only did it because they felt you were rushing out an unfinished and only partially working product.

Seriously, we've waited over three years for this, another two or three months working together, to get it right, wasn't going to hurt anyone, because everyone could see progress, and we wanted more progress before it hit live.

Once again thank you for delaying this as a live release, but do not give up on it, don't let it be a forgotten thing, we all want a new skill tree.

[MrKvola]

Also, PGI - if you are worried about people with LOTS of c-bills on their hands - give these some shinies to spend them on.

Not sure how big the balances of cash on hand are, so the following are just ballpark numbers:

How about a say Bounty Hunter or Silver camo that you could unlock for say 500m per chassis - remember how folks actually bought those golden 'mechs? Or perhaps a 'mech with special geo for a billion or two?

This would a) remove quite a bit of now perhaps useless cash from the game and since these should be available for c-bills only people who had that cash would be able to sport them.

Edited by MrKvola, 14 March 2017 - 08:21 AM.

[Mike Barnes]

So my experience with the PTS skill tree was pretty limited, as I had some computer problems that wouldn't let me get it working. But I hear Three main complaints that seem to be cropping up over and over again. The number of clicks to flush out the skill tree. The amount of c-bills on refund, and the expense to a new player. So here are my answers to that.

My current drop deck
BLR-2C
ARC-T
ENF-4R
LCT-1E.

Don't judge this on anything other than what I want to talk about next. the true cost of mastering this drop deck, how many c-bills do you think three battlemasters enforcers and locusts cost, the archers I bought the pack with real money. But to get a similar deck with a c-bill archer the minimum price for those mechs is 68,675,933 c-bills. I don't have them all fully modded out because of the enormous expense of paying for a single radar deprivation, let alone 4. I have figured the full cost of modules for this dropdeck (4x Radar Deprivation, 3x Seismic Sensors, 1x Targeting decay, 8x various weapons modules) to be 72 million c-bills. So we are already up to 140 million c-bills just to get your foot in the door of faction warfare, and out of just constant QP drops. And this is an IS deck, if you want a clan deck, be prepared to drop double on the 'mechs. Under the system they had proposed this the cost of 'mech plus 9.1 million c-bills, 60,505,654 c-bills. Please complain again to me about how this new skill tree is going to be a burden on incoming players or newish players trying to cut their teeth on the game.

As the guy currently switching modules out all over the place, please, just let me out from under that system, I want to buy cool new 'mechs with my c-bills not modues that cost more that the average innersphere medium and heavy. I'll be fine, I promise, and all the hyper rich ******** out there with hundereds of 'mechs and millions upon millions of c-bills banked; cry me a river.

Clicking through the tree. Yeah, it'll be a bit of a pain at first getting the 'mechs I already have caught up, but when I buy a new mech, it won't be so bad, go add a couple of nodes every few games, life goes on.

As far as the whole I gotta take nodes I don't want to get to the nodes I do want. There is so much positive especially for newer players here, and you want to go with that. Because double gauss Jaeger pilots have been happily clicking cool run and heat containment for years now. Go back to your holes, and let me have this overall massive improvement that can be further refined once we have the damned thing.

[CrashKingSnev]

PGI, thanks for listening to us and our concerns. I appreciate the continued work you've been doing on this SKill Tree.

The best contribution/support I can give here is to humbly ask, as others have, to take a good long look at So1ahma's Skill Tree mock up and see if we can't have something like that.

It addresses 2 big concerns I have regarding the PTS Skill Tree:
Distinct Skill Branches
Making each node worthwhile, giving the niche skills increased bonus to make them worth it.

As many others have said, I really don't want to have to purchase many skills I don't want or can't really utilize for a particular chassis, just to get the one's I want and can use.

I really like the synergy it would offer, like his Jump Jet / Shock Absorption example. It actually begs to be played with, experimenting with different combos to get very specific results. And I hardly think the extra bonuses for the previously useless/dubiously low utility skills of the Operations Tree, like Speed Retention, Hill Climb, or Improved Gyros would unbalance the game, keeping in mind the obvious, always usefulness of other options like Firepower. I love that, under So1ahma's version, these nodes would actually be noticed when unlocked. Same for the nice bonuses for the Jump Jets.

The delay was the right move. As excited as I am to see the new system, the added time to get it right will be much better for everyone involved in the long run.

Thanks.

[Ruar]

Disregard

Edited by Ruar, 14 March 2017 - 08:30 AM.

[762 NATO]

Hooray!!!!!!!

Now after we finish with this, can we get back to "evaluating the metrics" from the Light Rescale?

Cheers!

[Malrock]

This was a solid move and one that was much needed. Thank you for delaying the implementation, the skill tree did need a lot more polish. I look forward to the next PTS and another chance to provide more feedback.

[paws2sky]

I appreciate PGI for being responsive to the comments and concerns of their customers. Despite a few missteps and gaffs, you've shown to be an organization that is willing to listen and adjust plans to accommodate our concerns.

That said, you're never going to be able to please everyone. At some point, this needs to go live. Personally, I was content with the last release as a starting point... and I wasn't even considering the GXP refund for modules. With that in mind, I'd be happy to see it go live, as-is.

Keeping moving forward. I can't wait to see this go live.

-paws

[Tordin]

I was kinda frustrated, borderline angry reading this on the update (and after stalking the Reddit forums before it), kinda outta fear that this would get delayed and go the way of infowar and ED. So thanks for clarifiying that, Russ.
Im looking forward to this and I hope PGI listened to people with truly good ideas and NOT bending over backwards for L33ts, boaters only and trolls that just want to see this game stay stale and dont want to get out of their comfort zone and adapt to a fundamentaly, promising change.
I hope for more mixed builds (some stock loadouts are good examples for such) and they become just as viable thanks to the skilltree/ mechtuning tree as boating builds. Having a single small pulse lasers, a few machine guns, a couple of lrm/ srm thats actually VIABLE can be a dream come true. And more TimeToKill would be a blessing from the godsof heavymetal too!

Im skeptical but also cautiously optimistic. Dont let the mechtuning tree get watered down to easly favor boaters, competive crowd only and/ or ending in an endless cycle of delaying hell.

Edited by Tordin, 14 March 2017 - 08:59 AM.

[Big McLarge-Huge]

Disappointed it is not being released I was really looking forward to it.

When it is released could we please include the following cockpit items:

Standing: Diapers
Hanging: Binkie
Mounted: Crying Baby Horn

[Retiarius]

As a new player with only one mech Elited I'm not happy with that the skilltree will probably won't come at all. Skilling three mechs to get my prefered boosted is a pain and I don't want to do this again and again. It bursts the limits of my imagination that someone has done such thing hundred times. But there are stange people all over the world.
My conclusion is. Go to a wait state and watch what direction the game goes. Buy no single mech and no mech packs for real money and play three of my seven mechs or the trial ones ho have some fun.

[tokumboh]

Mike Barnes, on 14 March 2017 - 08:22 AM, said:

So my experience with the PTS skill tree was pretty limited, as I had some computer problems that wouldn't let me get it working. But I hear Three main complaints that seem to be cropping up over and over again. The number of clicks to flush out the skill tree. The amount of c-bills on refund, and the expense to a new player. So here are my answers to that.

My current drop deck
BLR-2C
ARC-T
ENF-4R
LCT-1E.

Don't judge this on anything other than what I want to talk about next. the true cost of mastering this drop deck, how many c-bills do you think three battlemasters enforcers and locusts cost, the archers I bought the pack with real money. But to get a similar deck with a c-bill archer the minimum price for those mechs is 68,675,933 c-bills. I don't have them all fully modded out because of the enormous expense of paying for a single radar deprivation, let alone 4. I have figured the full cost of modules for this dropdeck (4x Radar Deprivation, 3x Seismic Sensors, 1x Targeting decay, 8x various weapons modules) to be 72 million c-bills. So we are already up to 140 million c-bills just to get your foot in the door of faction warfare, and out of just constant QP drops. And this is an IS deck, if you want a clan deck, be prepared to drop double on the 'mechs. Under the system they had proposed this the cost of 'mech plus 9.1 million c-bills, 60,505,654 c-bills. Please complain again to me about how this new skill tree is going to be a burden on incoming players or newish players trying to cut their teeth on the game.

As the guy currently switching modules out all over the place, please, just let me out from under that system, I want to buy cool new 'mechs with my c-bills not modues that cost more that the average innersphere medium and heavy. I'll be fine, I promise, and all the hyper rich ******** out there with hundereds of 'mechs and millions upon millions of c-bills banked; cry me a river.

Clicking through the tree. Yeah, it'll be a bit of a pain at first getting the 'mechs I already have caught up, but when I buy a new mech, it won't be so bad, go add a couple of nodes every few games, life goes on.

As far as the whole I gotta take nodes I don't want to get to the nodes I do want. There is so much positive especially for newer players here, and you want to go with that. Because double gauss Jaeger pilots have been happily clicking cool run and heat containment for years now. Go back to your holes, and let me have this overall massive improvement that can be further refined once we have the damned thing.

My experience of the PTS was limited by the fact that
1. The PTS has very few player on it
2. it was limited to 4 v 3 so essentially all (6 of ) my matches quickly became brawls and the best brawling builds won out

My biggest concern was that I did a number of tests

1. The session grind test

What I did was start a fresh skill tree and try and spend 15 Skill Point and go see what it did to my mech.
i tried numerous approaches from dumping them into one tree to trying to spread them around.

This is what a beginner would most probably have to contend with. I found it less than satisfying. I did try the 5 point test first and that got me to Radar Dep as most people would like to avoid lurmaggedon that you could have in T5

The interesting thing was that to radar Dep you picked up Target decay along the way the complete opposite of really what I would have thought the game mechanic was trying to achieve. So the real problem was that the fillers were not helpful but were downright destructive as I saw them.

Now on the old system my only ***** for a new player was the rule of 3.

the bottom line is you need about 15 SP to have any real effect on your game play and that compared to the old system where 750 XP gets you 5% cooldown.

So i have concluded they have designed the Skill Tree for people whom already have C bills and XP to play with and not beginners


2. The Strong/Weak Mech test
As many have said the already KDK-3 can get a 5% UAC jam chance reduction
Other mech deemed to be less strong got a quirk reduction I think one mech UAC jam chance was reduced from 30% to 20% and so its best reduction is now 25% you can do the math(s) but it results in the the most powerful mech getting a a quirk it did not need.

3. Brawling/DPS test

this one was simple I took my CTF-0XP checked the my DPS and sure enough it is lowered. however the armour was raised so it resulted in much better TTK (Yay a win for the Skill Tree)

4. Long range sniping

Ok this is not my favourite and the reality is that has not changed Guass/PPC sniping/poking will still be the meta and indeed the whole poptarting thing will be a thing again


In conclusion I felt that overall the skill tree was meh, too much filler not enough in terms of progression basically from the podcast it was nto clear what they wanted why they chose the design the basically contradicted themselves in virtually every statement they made.

I am not against the diea of the tree it was just so badly implemented that they could not even explain it to softballed question in the podcast.

I hate the rule of 3 but I think that if we change this it has to work and currently form my testing in the round it does not.

[DivineTomatoes]

Good going PIG, you folded like a wet paper bag.

Why even bother asking the community when it's quite clear that the screaming, whining bittervet ******** are the ones in charge here. You clearly need their "permission" to do anything.

[Alan Hicks]

No problem with the delay, it is actually good news. Such an important change in MWO customizing mechanics should not be implemented until it is sufficiently ready and appealing to most of the community.