676 replies to this topic

[Zergling]

Khobai, on 16 April 2017 - 06:13 PM, said:

ISML has better beam duration, better heat efficiency, and better crit health. I wouldnt say it has nothing of note.

But the ISERML is going to replace the ISML anyway. The ISML is one of those weapons that just cant really be saved.

IS ER Medium Laser is unlikely to replace the regular IS Medium Laser, for the same reason the IS ER Large Laser doesn't replace the IS Large Laser; longer beam duration and more heat.

Any sort of IS energy brawler build that uses Medium Lasers is going to lose considerable amounts of sustained DPS output if it switches to ER Mediums.

Khobai, on 16 April 2017 - 06:13 PM, said:

only if heavy gauss has splash damage, thats only way it can be balanced as is. otherwise there will probably be a limit of charging one heavy gauss at a time. I suppose there could also be an absolutely massive ghost heat penalty for firing two heavy gauss together. but there will have to be something in place to stop dual heavy gauss.

they dont let you fire dual AC20 without the ghost heat spike so they definitely wont allow dual gauss to do 50 PPFLD with next to no heat. that would be completely broken since it could easily be paired with other energy weapons for a massive pinpoint alpha.

Dual HGR builds aren't going to be 'easily' able to pair it with other other weapons, due to tonnage and slot limits.

Eg, the HGR requires 11 slots, which means only side torso installation with a standard engine. Ammo per ton is likely to be only 5 or 6 shots, so that is 4 tons of ammo.
So 2x HGR comes at the cost of 44 tons and and 30 slots.

A 100 tonner with endo-steel, 300 standard engine, and nearly maxed armor, comes out at 51 tons and 37 slots free.
It can add a Large Laser, but that reduces the PPFLD aspect; it is better off stripping an arm, bringing it up to 53 tons for an ER PPC, which gives it a total of 60 points of PPFLD.

In comparison, KDK-3 can have 50 point PPFLD, but it can do it with far better mobility, so this appears to be fairly balanced.

Although given that is only balanced relative to the most powerful mech in the game, it is likely Heavy Gauss will get hit with nerfs to prevent them from being that good.
I predict they'll be hit with severe damage dropoff like they have in TT, which means they simply won't compete with regular Gauss beyond short range.

Khobai, on 16 April 2017 - 06:13 PM, said:

Unless ECM super stealth is removed, ATMs will suffer the same fate as LRMs. Relegated to being useless by the 1.5 ton magic jesus box.

As long as ECM grants super bubble stealth im gonna have to say MRM > ATM

If the next skill tree iteration has the Sensors tree like the last one, then ECM is getting a bit of a nerf, as it has to pay a bunch of skill points to get full ECM benefits.

Edited by Zergling, 17 April 2017 - 02:23 AM.

[Sniper09121986]

Khobai, on 16 April 2017 - 06:13 PM, said:

Unless ECM super stealth is removed, ATMs will suffer the same fate as LRMs. Relegated to being useless by the 1.5 ton magic jesus box.

As long as ECM grants super bubble stealth im gonna have to say MRM > ATM

Big deal. I was not going to use ATM in their LRM capacity anyway, if you know what I mean... And ECM would do squat to stop it.

Zergling, on 17 April 2017 - 12:09 AM, said:

If the next skill tree iteration has the Sensors tree like the last one, then ECM is getting a bit of a nerf, as it has to pay a bunch of skill points to get full ECM benefits.

So what? The way I see it they can only nerf the size of the ECM bubble, and 95% of all ECM users out there care only that the magic Jesus box saves themselves, and the hell with the rest of the team. So any ECM nerf would only hurt team-play and punish players for exerting the effort to be good team-mates.

[Mcgral18]

Jman5, on 16 April 2017 - 05:46 PM, said:

So I've finally gotten around to digging through the new tech that's coming in July and it seems like we're in for one hell of a power creep.

It just seems like damage is going to go through the roof and yet I see very little in the way of defensive buffs. Light Engine makes mechs currently using XL engines more survivable, but for players running standard engines they're just going to switch to Light engine and gain all that tonnage for more guns. So it's a double edged sword.

Will Dual Heavy Gauss be a thing? What about Dual Heavy Gauss + Heavy PPC? Or Heavy Gauss + 2 Heavy PPC? Could a big assault be slinging around 80 pinpoint alphas?

This whole thing is worrisome. Particularly for Light and Medium Pilots that can't really take that kind of punishment.

We've covered the HGauss yesterday, and the STD is the reason things like this can't happen

Gauss+2HPPC is almost the best the Sphere can come up with, at 45 PP FLD
That's 35 tons (VS 36 tons for 50 PP FLD, plus 10 splash)
IF HPPCs are 15 PP FLD
But LFE capable, if it has a min range

2HGauss on their own is 36 tons, for the (potentially short range) PP FLD, but STD requirement.

Khobai, on 16 April 2017 - 06:13 PM, said:

ISML has better beam duration, better heat efficiency, and better crit health. I wouldnt say it has nothing of note.

But the ISERML is going to replace the ISML anyway. The ISML is one of those weapons that just cant really be saved.



only if heavy gauss has splash damage, thats only way it can be balanced as is. otherwise there will probably be a limit of charging one heavy gauss at a time. I suppose there could also be an absolutely massive ghost heat penalty for firing two heavy gauss together. but there will have to be something in place to stop dual heavy gauss.

they dont let you fire dual AC20 without the ghost heat spike so they definitely wont allow dual gauss to do 50 PPFLD with next to no heat. that would be completely broken since it could easily be paired with other energy weapons for a massive pinpoint alpha.



Unless ECM super stealth is removed, ATMs will suffer the same fate as LRMs. Relegated to being useless by the 1.5 ton magic jesus box.

As long as ECM grants super bubble stealth im gonna have to say MRM > ATM

isML has less Dam/tick than the cERML
Saying is has less duration without that important fact isn't worthwhile. Damage output in the same timeframe is a more important fact

It's also barely more heat efficient. 7/6 VS 5/4
Less than a tenth of a point of dam/heat, 0.0833

isML is EASILY saved with reduced heat, among any other of the various attributes.
No weapon needs to remain worthless, only stagnant balance leads to that (which MWO is chock full of)

So, Clams can get 50 PP FLD for 36 tons, but the Sphere can't?
Clams can use cXLs while doing that, but Sphere can't even do that with STD engines?

That's a terrible balance point
HGauss can fire 2 at once for 50 PP FLD, at shorter range than Clams, while moving slower. It's only fair.
2Gauss+2PPC has no GH
HGauss doesn't need to be any different

AC20 is largely obsolete for partially this reason, it's not worth taking. That whole bad balance thing

Remember the Magic Jesus Field is being changed, so if they don't spent their Skill Cloud points into ECM, they can be targeted 560M out (at double lock duration) TAG will also cut through that, and BAP will remain at 360M, a perfectly effective range (probably) for ATMs.

ATMs may or may not be superior to MRMs
Both can be good, or terrible, weapon systems depending on PGI's implementation. That's TBD

[Khobai]

Quote

So, Clams can get 50 PP FLD for 36 tons, but the Sphere can't?

nope and ive been a strong proponent of clan gauss being nerfed for a while

game cant handle 50 PPFLD

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

warner2, on 14 March 2017 - 12:51 PM, said:

Very cool idea IMO! It's a bit cheesy but this is MWO so why not... Elements rode Battlemechs into battle so why not let a star of them lose at an opportune moment?

IIRC they rode omnimechs into battle, not battlemechs. I could be wrong, but I think that was the rule.

[Jep Jorgensson]

I did some research and found a few things that also falls into the new timeline and could be implemented into the game.


Clan

Artemis V FCS (Five is better than four)

Heavy Flamer (All in the name)

Streak LRM's (The people who like to cry about LRM indirect fire should not have any problem with these and would be really easy to code)

ER Pulse Lasers (Oh wait, giving good lasers to the Clans would make us even more "OP", never mind)

HAG (Developed in 3068, unfortunately one year after the new timeline (by pure coincidence, of course))


IS

Endo Composite (Lighter internal)

Composite Internal Structure (Lighter internal)

Compact Heat Sink (Though IS mechs are already better at cooling)

Binary Laser Cannon (IS heavy energy weapon (even though IS laser vomit is already bad as is))

Bombast Laser (Needs no introduction)


Both

Armored Components (All in the name)

CASE II (Better than regular CASE)


There they are everyone. There were a few other techs that were developed (new cockpits, gyros, etc), but these are the big ones. Thoughts?

Edited by Jep Jorgensson, 25 April 2017 - 02:29 PM.

[Zergling]

Jep Jorgensson, on 25 April 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

Artemis V FCS (Five is better than four)

Date of introduction (not experimental prototype date) is 3085, according to Technical Readout: 3145.

Jep Jorgensson, on 25 April 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

Heavy Flamer (All in the name)

Honestly not worth adding; it's a flamer that requires ammo in addition to weighing more.

Jep Jorgensson, on 25 April 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

Streak LRM's (The people who like to cry about LRM indirect fire should not have any problem with these and would be really easy to code)

3079 date of introduction, according to TRO:3145

Jep Jorgensson, on 25 April 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

ER Pulse Lasers (Oh wait, giving good lasers to the Clans would make us even more "OP", never mind)

3082 date of introduction, according to TRO:3145

Jep Jorgensson, on 25 April 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

Endo Composite (Lighter internal)

3085 date of introduction, according to TRO:3145

Jep Jorgensson, on 25 April 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

Composite Internal Structure (Lighter internal)

3082 date of introduction, according to TRO:3145

Jep Jorgensson, on 25 April 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

Compact Heat Sink (Though IS mechs are already better at cooling)

3079 introduction date according to Technical Readout: Prototypes.

And IS mechs don't have better cooling than Clan mechs, they actually have worse.

Jep Jorgensson, on 25 April 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

Binary Laser Cannon (IS heavy energy weapon (even though IS laser vomit is already bad as is))

3077 introduction date according to Technical Readout: Prototypes.

And Clans definitely out-perform IS mechs in laser vomit.

Jep Jorgensson, on 25 April 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

Bombast Laser (Needs no introduction)

3085 introduction date according to Technical Readout: Prototypes.

Jep Jorgensson, on 25 April 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

Armored Components (All in the name)

3082 introduction date according to Technical Readout: Prototypes.

Jep Jorgensson, on 25 April 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

CASE II (Better than regular CASE)

3082 introduction date according to Technical Readout: Prototypes.

[Jep Jorgensson]

A bit short on time so I will keep it simple.

Zergling, on 25 April 2017 - 03:40 PM, said:

And IS mechs don't have better cooling than Clan mechs, they actually have worse.

And Clans definitely out-perform IS mechs in laser vomit.

Before or after quirks? I have tested out the IS mechs PGI gave me and it was the first time I ever got to fire 3 LPL's in a group. Not that much heat and the cooling/cool down,laser duration was obscene.

Check the DPS sometime. IS lasers run cooler, fire faster, and do their damage quicker.

Clan ER Large Laser: 11 Damage/1.5 seconds of burn time = 7.333.

IS ER Large Laser: 9 Damage/1.2 seconds of burn time = 7.5.

Mind you, this is not even counting the heat differences and before all the IS quirks.

So nice try.

[Khobai]

Quote

IIRC they rode omnimechs into battle, not battlemechs. I could be wrong, but I think that was the rule.

yep because omnimechs had better gyroscopes because they had to deal with the center of mass constantly changing from swapping pods

so omnimechs were better troop carriers

[Zergling]

Jep Jorgensson, on 03 May 2017 - 06:52 PM, said:

Before or after quirks? I have tested out the IS mechs PGI gave me and it was the first time I ever got to fire 3 LPL's in a group. Not that much heat and the cooling/cool down,laser duration was obscene.

Check the DPS sometime. IS lasers run cooler, fire faster, and do their damage quicker.

Clan ER Large Laser: 11 Damage/1.5 seconds of burn time = 7.333.

IS ER Large Laser: 9 Damage/1.2 seconds of burn time = 7.5.

Mind you, this is not even counting the heat differences and before all the IS quirks.

So nice try.

Lmao nice try indeed; you got the burn duration of the IS ER Large wrong. It is 1.25 seconds, not 1.20.
9 divided by 1.25 = 7.2 DPS

The Clan ER Large with 11 damage and 1.5 second burn time has a higher damage/tick than the IS ER Large.
The same thing goes for Clan ER Medium versus IS Medium (and IS ER Medium is guaranteed to have a longer burn duration than regular IS Medium).


Further, don't compare such obviously unfavourable comparisons of triple IS large pulse versus triple Clan large pulse, because Clan Large Pulse have a ghost heat limit of 2, which means only potatoes actually fire 3 Clan large pulse at the same time.

If you're gonna do any sort of comparison, do actual builds, like what I've done numerous times already, including in this very thread.


Eg, take an elited Timber Wolf with 2x Large Pulse, 6x ER Medium and 25 double heat sinks. Such a build has 87.1 kph speed, 405 meter effective range, 68 damage alpha, 37% heat efficiency, 16.07 maximum DPS and 5.93 sustained DPS.
The Timber Wolf has a maximum heat capacity of 78.5, dissipates 4.8875 heat per second, and generates 56 heat per alpha.
A single alpha brings it to 71.34% of maximum heat, and it dissipates the heat from a single alpha in 11.46 seconds.


Versus an elited Black Knight 6B (with -10% heat generation quirk), with 3x Large Pulse, 6x Medium and 17 double heat sinks. Such a build has 67.3 kph speed, 270 meter effective range, 63 damage alpha, 34% heat efficiency, 16.11 maximum DPS and 5.45 sustained DPS.
The Black Knight has a maximum heat capacity of 66.5, dissipates 3.5075 heat per second, and generates 40.5 heat per alpha.
A single alpha brings it to 60.90% of maximum heat, and it dissipates the heat from a single alpha in 11.55 seconds.

Both mechs are going to shut down if they fire 2 alphas, but the Timber Wolf is able to cool off faster, meaning it is actually slightly cooler running.
And that's on top of all the other advantages the Timber Wolf has; 29.4% greater top speed, 50% greater effective range, 7.9% greater alpha damage, 8.8% greater sustained DPS.

Quite simply, Clans are cooler running even when they don't have -% heat gen quirks and also despite their generally hotter weapons, because they can cram so many more double heat sinks into their mechs.

Edited by Zergling, 03 May 2017 - 09:24 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

The only tech I want is 2 slot DHS for my IS Mechs... "Sigh*

[Chris Puetz]

Prosperity Park, on 04 May 2017 - 08:15 AM, said:

The only tech I want is 2 slot DHS for my IS Mechs... "Sigh*

And the Clan XL and Clan Endo Steel!

[Kithmar]

Prosperity Park, on 04 May 2017 - 08:15 AM, said:

The only tech I want is 2 slot DHS for my IS Mechs... "Sigh*

Chris Puetz, on 04 May 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

And the Clan XL and Clan Endo Steel!

Basically you want your IS 'Mechs to be Clan 'Mechs. Got it.

Edited by Kithmar, 04 May 2017 - 09:36 AM.

[Sniper09121986]

Prosperity Park, on 04 May 2017 - 08:15 AM, said:

The only tech I want is 2 slot DHS for my IS Mechs... "Sigh*

Chris Puetz, on 04 May 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

And the Clan XL and Clan Endo Steel!

Can I have the Inner Sphere one-shot AC then?

[Moebius Pi]

Zergling, on 03 May 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

Lmao nice try indeed; you got the burn duration of the IS ER Large wrong. It is 1.25 seconds, not 1.20.
9 divided by 1.25 = 7.2 DPS

The Clan ER Large with 11 damage and 1.5 second burn time has a higher damage/tick than the IS ER Large.
The same thing goes for Clan ER Medium versus IS Medium (and IS ER Medium is guaranteed to have a longer burn duration than regular IS Medium).


Further, don't compare such obviously unfavourable comparisons of triple IS large pulse versus triple Clan large pulse, because Clan Large Pulse have a ghost heat limit of 2, which means only potatoes actually fire 3 Clan large pulse at the same time.

If you're gonna do any sort of comparison, do actual builds, like what I've done numerous times already, including in this very thread.


Eg, take an elited Timber Wolf with 2x Large Pulse, 6x ER Medium and 25 double heat sinks. Such a build has 87.1 kph speed, 405 meter effective range, 68 damage alpha, 37% heat efficiency, 16.07 maximum DPS and 5.93 sustained DPS.
The Timber Wolf has a maximum heat capacity of 78.5, dissipates 4.8875 heat per second, and generates 56 heat per alpha.
A single alpha brings it to 71.34% of maximum heat, and it dissipates the heat from a single alpha in 11.46 seconds.


Versus an elited Black Knight 6B (with -10% heat generation quirk), with 3x Large Pulse, 6x Medium and 17 double heat sinks. Such a build has 67.3 kph speed, 270 meter effective range, 63 damage alpha, 34% heat efficiency, 16.11 maximum DPS and 5.45 sustained DPS.
The Black Knight has a maximum heat capacity of 66.5, dissipates 3.5075 heat per second, and generates 40.5 heat per alpha.
A single alpha brings it to 60.90% of maximum heat, and it dissipates the heat from a single alpha in 11.55 seconds.

Both mechs are going to shut down if they fire 2 alphas, but the Timber Wolf is able to cool off faster, meaning it is actually slightly cooler running.
And that's on top of all the other advantages the Timber Wolf has; 29.4% greater top speed, 50% greater effective range, 7.9% greater alpha damage, 8.8% greater sustained DPS.

Quite simply, Clans are cooler running even when they don't have -% heat gen quirks and also despite their generally hotter weapons, because they can cram so many more double heat sinks into their mechs.

Pretty good comparison all in all.

Now, to put out that much damage, how much longer does the Timberwolf have to stare at its target with clan burn times vs the Black Knight for full effect before twisting? I'd like to see an exposure time comparison (because, hey, it's constantly overlooked and -very- important). I'm being completely serious here.

Along with that, overall mech durability comparison; IS XL still sucks a donkey (but, we're not seeing that change anytime soon, and LFE eats more tonnage, sooo), but I want to know how much damage/exposure time it takes to blow off the CT or a side torso compared to the Timberwolf as well as the Black Knight for a much more indepth look at what happens, because -that- **** in a live match will make a substantial difference..

[MovinTarget]

Moebius Pi, on 04 May 2017 - 12:34 PM, said:

Pretty good comparison all in all.

Now, to put out that much damage, how much longer does the Timberwolf have to stare at its target with clan burn times vs the Black Knight for full effect before twisting? I'd like to see an exposure time comparison (because, hey, it's constantly overlooked and -very- important). I'm being completely serious here.

Along with that, overall mech durability comparison; IS XL still sucks a donkey (but, we're not seeing that change anytime soon, and LFE eats more tonnage, sooo), but I want to know how much damage/exposure time it takes to blow off the CT or a side torso compared to the Timberwolf as well as the Black Knight for a much more indepth look at what happens, because -that- **** in a live match will make a substantial difference..

Terrain dependent, the Timby will be able to bring it's full arsenal to bear much sooner, so even with "staring" the smart clanner would try to keep the engagement at 300+ meters for as long as possible.

[Zergling]

Moebius Pi, on 04 May 2017 - 12:34 PM, said:

Pretty good comparison all in all.

Now, to put out that much damage, how much longer does the Timberwolf have to stare at its target with clan burn times vs the Black Knight for full effect before twisting? I'd like to see an exposure time comparison (because, hey, it's constantly overlooked and -very- important). I'm being completely serious here.

Along with that, overall mech durability comparison; IS XL still sucks a donkey (but, we're not seeing that change anytime soon, and LFE eats more tonnage, sooo), but I want to know how much damage/exposure time it takes to blow off the CT or a side torso compared to the Timberwolf as well as the Black Knight for a much more indepth look at what happens, because -that- **** in a live match will make a substantial difference..

Good questions.

Timber Wolf has 1.12 duration Large Pulse Lasers doing 13 damage each, and 1.15 duration ER Mediums doing 7 damage each, versus the Black Knight having 0.67 duration Large Pulse Lasers doing 11 damage each, and 0.90 duration Medium Lasers doing 5 damage each.

If both mechs fire at each other at the same time, and the Black Knight twists immediately as its Medium Lasers finish their burn, then the Timby's lasers only inflict 0.90 seconds of their burn duration before their damage is spread.
For the Large Pulse Lasers, that is 10.45 damage, and for the ER Mediums 5.48 damage, reducing the total damage from the Timby's alpha from 68 to 54.

That does of course, assume firing at the same time, with perfectly timed twisting by the Black Knight, and that immediately as the BK starts twisting the Timby isn't able to focus its lasers anymore.
In reality, the Timby would probably be able to keep its lasers on target for another 0.05-0.10 seconds before its lasers are off target, and the BK is unlikely to perfectly time its twist.


Then for durability: the BK has +17 CT structure and +12 LT/RT structure (arms and legs are irrelevant for the most part).
The CT of 75 ton mechs is 92 points of armor and 46 structure, so the BK gets 63 structure.
Not all of that armor will be frontally allocated; assuming 10 points for the rear results in 82 front.
That gives the front CT total hit points of 82 + 63 = 145, which is 13.2% more than what the Timby has with identical rear armor allocation.

Side torsos for a 75 tonner are 64 armor + 32 structure, so the BK gets 44 structure. Assuming 10 rear armor again, that is 54 front armor + 44 structure, for 98 total hit points for a side torso, which is 13.9% more than the Timby with identical rear armor allocation.


Overall, this means the BK has the odds in its favor in a 1 vs 1, if it starts the engagement at 270 meters or less.
It is tougher overall thanks to those structure quirks, and its shorter beam duration means it can twist sooner than the Timby to more effectively spread damage.

However, if the engagement starts at longer range, say 400 meters or more, then the Timby will have such a damage advantage that by the time the BK gets into effective range it will have lost all its durability advantage.
With the Timby having greater mobility, it can more effectively dictate the range of the engagement, so the odds are really in the Timby's favor.

Further, in normal Many vs Many engagements in QP and FW battles of MWO, the greater mobility and range of the Timby outweigh the durability and beam duration advantages of the BK.
The Timby is more effectively able to keep up with its team, position itself for flanking, and has the range to take better advantage of whatever firing positions it is location in.

So while I'd give them a 'maybe, depends on a lot of ifs' in a 1 vs 1 scenario, in normal battles the Timby is definitely better.



One other thing to add: the Timby can run a laser vomit brawling build focused on Medium Pulse Lasers.
It ends up with 330 meters effective range (worse than the 365 meters of the BK's Large Pulse, but better than the 270 meters of the BK's Medium Lasers), and it also loses a bit of alpha damage, but its beam duration drops to 0.85 seconds and its sustained DPS goes up dramatically.

With 27 double heat sinks, it has a maximum heat capacity of 81.5, and dissipates 5.2325 heat per second.

If it is only firing 6 of the Medium Pulses per alpha (to avoid ghost heat), it generates 36 heat per alpha, which brings it up to 44.17% of max heat, and that heat can be dissipated in 6.88 seconds.
It also does a 48 damage alpha, with 12.47 maximum DPS and a sustained DPS of 6.98. It's heat efficiency is 55.96%, so it is definitely far cooler running than the Black Knight.

If it is firing all 7 Medium Pulses per alpha (and so triggering ghost heat), it generates 46.8 heat per alpha, which brings it up to 57.42% of max heat, and that heat can be dissipated in 8.94 seconds.
It does a 56 damage alpha, with 14.54 maximum DPS and a sustained DPS of 6.26. It's heat efficiency is 43.04%, so it is still cooler running than the Black Knight.

In a 1 vs 1 brawl, I'd definitely put money on that Medium Pulse vomit Timber Wolf; it has a bit less alpha damage and it is less durable, but it runs far cooler, in addition to slight range and beam duration advantages.

Edited by Zergling, 04 May 2017 - 06:25 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

I feel like I'm re-reading my own post, posted by somebody else in two parts...

[Zergling]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 May 2017 - 08:26 AM, said:

I feel like I'm re-reading my own post, posted by somebody else in two parts...

Math is alternative facts, and Clans not being underpowered is fake news.

Edited by Zergling, 05 May 2017 - 08:20 PM.

[MuffledOrk]

With all this new tech take the chance to remove pin point damage and hey presto IS have a reason to take xl as they know you wont be able to wack all your alpha constantly into one shoulder, thats whats killing IS xl's.

non pinpoint will also help balance the rac's if it cant put a metric ton of rounds into one point in the few seconds it takes someone to realise they getting owned or atleast put in a non pinpoint mode, i dont mind waiting hours for a good game instead of waiting a few seconds for pinpoint alpha online.