676 replies to this topic

[Zergling]

Khobai, on 17 March 2017 - 07:04 PM, said:

blah blah blah

you realize PGI has changed canon stat values on weapons before right?

obviously it wouldnt work with stock values. chemical laser could easily be made to work with some adjustments though

dont be so close minded.

You do realise the same applies to Micro Lasers, right?

[TKG]

Arkhangel, on 17 March 2017 - 04:58 PM, said:

@TKG: the Rakshasa isn't an Omni, but it would be nice to see regardless, given it's the IS Timber Wolf.

Also, you forgot the Raptor, which was the first IS Omni, and a fairly solid light, too.

You are right, the Rak was not an omni, I think that the entire 3058 IS early omni line up would be great to see. It may be that PGI is setting the stage for the introduction of all or some of those.

Khobai, on 17 March 2017 - 07:04 PM, said:

did I ever say I was leaving? no i didnt. so dont make that assumption. it just makes you look like a !@#4
I just said there was no reason to continue play clan if they get nothing new worth using. Ill switch to IS.
I never threatened to leave if I dont get my way. I simply said playing clan wont hold my interest anymore if they get dont get their fair share of new tech.

You were not specific as to if you meant quitting playing as the clans or if you meant quitting the game. I will say this, it does not take a mind reader to notice that Jade Falcon insignia of yours and it can be devised that you play as the clans and thus meant yourself and others of like-mindedness. In of that, by saying players will either quit the game or quit playing the clans if they do not get something you literally are threatening something if you do not get what you want.

Edited by TKG, 17 March 2017 - 07:28 PM.

[Lanzman]

But despite all the good . . . still no Swarm/Thunder LRMs. I am sad face.

[Arkhangel]

@Lanzman: eh... Mine Laying LRMs would get abused the hell out of.

Also, if we were given Swarms, they'd have to get some kinda "half-homing" rather than the full homing normal ones do, otherwise they'd be grossly overpowered against lights (give they'd basically be homing LBX shells)

[Metallica danger]

the mech i want to see is the talos, i like the mw4 version. PGI please put this mech into the game, id preorder it.

[Sniper09121986]

TKG, on 17 March 2017 - 04:22 PM, said:

All I have to say to this is "When are you leaving?". I say that not to be antagonistic but to seriously look at this sort of passive-aggressive threat; which is the in-game equivalent to when someone claims their going to hold their breath until they die or they get what they want. It never works, and in the end it only makes you look bad. Honestly if anyone quits MWO forever over a bunch of weapons for the IS then maybe they weren't that serious about playing the game and having fun in the first place.

Personally I left Faction Play, like, after they merged the queues after splitting them. Not sure if a promise of a grand prize Banshee would draw me in, I just do not believe in PGI lack of bias and ability to balance IS and Clan tech, at least within the current timeline and/or without mixed tech. I am quite serious about having fun, you see, coming home from work at, like, 19:30 and not wanting to see anyone and hear anything. I could hardly care any less about how does it make me look or what new toys does the IS have, as long as we have our own toys of more or less the same kind (RAC and Gauss weapons in this particular case). I actually welcome the IS analogues of what we have already and think they should have moved the timeline straight to this point to avoid all that controversy and "balancing" that they came up with.

TKG, on 17 March 2017 - 04:22 PM, said:

all you clanners out there have something to look forward to...your next totem mech is probably going to be the Mandrill or something.

Go drive a stock Ostscout.

[Khobai]

Quote

You do realise the same applies to Micro Lasers, right?

except micro lasers are far more restricted in what stats can be changed

because micro lasers are a new size of an existing weapon rather than an entirely new weapon system. so you can only change their stats upto a certain point, but ultimately they still have to be weaker and weigh less than small lasers.

but also the reality is that micro lasers were designed for protomechs and elementals which dont exist in the game. if protomechs and elementals were added as consumables, id be all for micro lasers. for example if omnimechs could carry 1 protomech or 5 elementals as a consumable that would be pretty cool.

but adding micro lasers without protomechs or elementals is just pointless. id be perfectly okay with clans getting less new tech than IS if clans were getting useful stuff. but micro lasers are not useful.

giving clans less new tech as well as new tech thats useless is just unacceptable.

Quote

@Lanzman: eh... Mine Laying LRMs would get abused the hell out of.

not if the mines had a limited duration before disappearing. and if their cooldown and/or ammo per ton was severely limited. or if they could be detonated by shooting at them (although you should probably have to have a BAP to detect them)

thunder lrms could definitely be made to work without being abusive.

and those are the kindve new weapons PGI should be adding, weapons that arnt just straightforward in use, but require some tactical consideration to use. because it adds more depth to the game.

mech mortars are another example of a weapon we should get that would add more depth to the game.although it would require some additional coding so you could increase/decrease the angle the mortar is fired at since torsos dont pitch up enough to use a proper ballistic arcing weapon (or if PGI wanted to be lazy I suppose they could just have the mortar fire at a fixed angle like 60 degrees up or whatever).

Quote

I actually welcome the IS analogous of what we have already and think they should have moved the timeline straight to this point to avoid all that controversy and "balancing" that they came up with.

except clans arnt getting analogies of the new IS tech, even though in a lot of cases they should, like with rotary autocannons. clans get their own version of the rotary autocannon yet for some reason its absent from PGI's civil war update. the clan version is arguably worse than the IS version too since it takes up 2 extra crit slots, so I see no reason clans shouldnt get it. IS also gets light/heavy gauss but Clans dont get their analogy of HAGs. Why?

all its going to do is bias the game towards IS. because IS is getting more new stuff so why would you continue playing clans? clantech is going to become stale.

Edited by Khobai, 18 March 2017 - 10:12 AM.

[Lanzman]

Arkhangel, on 18 March 2017 - 02:48 AM, said:

@Lanzman: eh... Mine Laying LRMs would get abused the hell out of.

Also, if we were given Swarms, they'd have to get some kinda "half-homing" rather than the full homing normal ones do, otherwise they'd be grossly overpowered against lights (give they'd basically be homing LBX shells)

Swarms aren't homing missiles. You fire them at a single target same as normal LRMs and any that miss will go on to attack other mechs that are close enough (within 90m IIRC). If there are no other mechs near your target, they work just like normal LRMs.

Thunder minefields could be "balanced" simply by having a time limit, sort of like air strikes and artillery work in the game now. So you lay a 40-point field of kaboom on a location, it sits there waiting for maybe ten seconds and if no-one runs into it it detonates harmlessly. Don't see why that would be difficult.

[Forvet]

Okay, okay, okay.

I think we ALL know what we -really- want in this patch. What we REALLY want, is...

The Owens.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Owens

It would be perfect, an early Inner Sphere Omnimech to begin edging the Inner sphere into things without being too much of a game changer. That, and well, it's the -Owens-. I mean, hells yes!

[Sniper09121986]

Forvet, on 18 March 2017 - 10:19 AM, said:

Okay, okay, okay.

I think we ALL know what we -really- want in this patch. What we REALLY want, is...

The Owens.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Owens

It would be perfect, an early Inner Sphere Omnimech to begin edging the Inner sphere into things without being too much of a game changer. That, and well, it's the -Owens-. I mean, hells yes!

Good pick actually, and they could simply leave out empty tonnage and place instead of C3. Another solid option is http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hauptmann A very decent assault even with STD engine.

Khobai, on 18 March 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

except clans arnt getting analogies of the new IS tech, even though in a lot of cases they should, like with rotary autocannons. clans get their own version of the rotary autocannon yet for some reason its absent from PGI's civil war update. the clan version is arguably worse than the IS version too since it takes up 2 extra crit slots, so I see no reason clans shouldnt get it. IS also gets light/heavy gauss but Clans dont get their analogy of HAGs. Why?

all its going to do is bias the game towards IS. because IS is getting more new stuff so why would you continue playing clans? clantech is going to become stale.

That is my point, although I meant UAC/20 and Streak-6, that kind of stuff that gimped the balance for all these years. If IS had it together with Clans from the start there would be a lot less whine that keeps causing problems even now.

Also learn to use quote properly, makes it easier to reply. I only read your answer by accident.

[Edward Hazen]

Arkhangel, on 17 March 2017 - 04:58 PM, said:

@TKG: the Rakshasa isn't an Omni, but it would be nice to see regardless, given it's the IS Timber Wolf.

Also, you forgot the Raptor, which was the first IS Omni, and a fairly solid light, too.

IS Omnis will not be as good as people are thinking they will. If PGI sticks to lore with the IS omnis, they will have fixed armor, internal structions, heatsinks, jump jets and engines just like Clan omnis, but all of the tech will be IS tech. Being able to choose your hardpoints is not that much of an advantage, since non-omnis can be modified how ever you want between any match.

Forvet, on 18 March 2017 - 10:19 AM, said:

Okay, okay, okay.

I think we ALL know what we -really- want in this patch. What we REALLY want, is...

The Owens.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Owens

It would be perfect, an early Inner Sphere Omnimech to begin edging the Inner sphere into things without being too much of a game changer. That, and well, it's the -Owens-. I mean, hells yes!

Fafnir for IS and Blood Asp for clans

[Kael Posavatz]

TKG, on 17 March 2017 - 04:22 PM, said:

What I don't precisely get is why all these clan folks are having a fit over weapons that ultimately wont really close the gap completely between clan and IS tech.

Most of the people having fits belong in one of three camps.

The first belong to that curious group of gamer who want to easily and always stomp the other team into the ground and see the Clans as an easy way to do that.

Closely aligned with the first are what I call the 'table top lorists' who equate TT values with lore and find any derivation to be anathema.



The final group are those created by PGI. There are a couple of different variants depending on specific points (and the rational applied to those points), but generally it comes down to the following:

1) PGI did a very poor job of balancing Clan-Tech against what was already in the game
2) Instead of a massive one-time balance pass PGI has decided to repeatedly hammer Clan Tech with nerfs for nearly three years
3) When PGI wasn't nerfing the Clans to achieve 'balance' it went overboard on IS buff-quirks


So the problem isn't necessarily with the tech itself. It's symptom of the ongoing perception that 'PGI hates the Clans/are a bunch of IS fanboys', and a deep lack of faith in PGI's ability to reasonably balance this stuff. (Note, I did not say 'have it absolutely balanced', but reasonably close for a major content addition).

Edited by Kael Posavatz, 18 March 2017 - 12:41 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

What I don't precisely get is why all these clan folks are having a fit over weapons that ultimately wont really close the gap completely between clan and IS tech.

because new stuff is fun even if its not gamebreaking. clans deserve to have fun too. so clans should get just as much new stuff.

it has nothing to do with balance or PGI hating clans really. it has to do with the fact the game is getting stagnant and boring and clans deserve just as much new stuff to make the game less banal for them too.

the problem is clans arnt getting fun stuff. micro lasers are not fun. heavy lasers are not fun. theyre just really lame variations on weapons we already have. a HAG would be fun though, even if its not as good as a normal cgauss. clans getting their own version of the rotary autocannon would also be fun, despite the fact its arguably worse than the IS version since it takes up 2 additional crit slots. PGI could easily give clans the CXXL engine too. It would basically be an engine that weighs less than the CXL, takes up more crits, and the mech gets destroyed if it loses one side torso, like the ISXL. theres tons of fun new things they couldve given clans that wouldnt be out of line with balance.

its both an issue of clans getting less stuff and stuff thats less fun. its not going to be enough to keep clan players interested in playing clans. a lot of them will switch over to IS to play with the new stuff IS is getting that clans arnt.

Edited by Khobai, 18 March 2017 - 01:05 PM.

[Zergling]

Khobai, on 18 March 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

except micro lasers are far more restricted in what stats can be changed

Except that isn't the case at all.


Compare the ER Micro Laser and Micro Pulse to their closest analogue: the ER Small Laser.

TT stats for each:
ER Small = 0.5 tons, 1 slot, 6 hex range, 5 damage
Micro Pulse = 0.5 tons, 1 slot, 3 hex range, 3 damage (-2 to hit bonus)
ER Micro = 0.25 tons, 1 slot, 4 hex range, 2 damage

Yes, compared to the ER Small, they are crap weapons in TT. The Micro Pulse only has a small niche use due to having anti-infantry damage bonus, while the ER Micro is only useful for protomechs and battle-armor that can't fit anything heavier (or for crit seeking laser builds).


Now, look at the MWO stats for the ER Medium Laser vs Small Pulse Laser vs ER Small Laser:
ER Medium: 1.0 tons, 1 slot, 405 meter range, 7 damage, 6 heat, 1.69 DPS, 1.69 DPS/Ton.
Small Pulse: 1.0 tons, 1 slot, 165 meter range, 6 damage, 3 heat, 2.00 DPS, 2.00 DPS/Ton.
ER Small: 0.5 tons, 1 slot, 200 meter range, 5 damage, 3 heat, 1.54 DPS, 3.08 DPS/Ton


What does that mean?

Firstly, it means that Pulse Lasers have higher DPS than ER Lasers of the same weight, at the expense of range.
Secondly, lower weight lasers have higher DPS/Ton than heavier lasers.

The consequences of this is that the Micro Pulse will have higher DPS and DPS/Ton than both the ER Small, while the ER Micro will have higher DPS/Ton.

I could see the Micro Pulse inflicting around 1.80 DPS (3.6 DPS/Ton), while the ER Micro could inflict around 1.00 DPS (4.00 DPS/Ton), and both have around 100-120 meter range.


As a result, both of these weapons would very tonnage efficient as brawler weapons for mechs that have large numbers of energy hardpoints.
Most of the time they won't be boated exclusively, but instead used to supplement other weapons by giving a build a large boost to brawling DPS (which is how Small Pulse and ER Small are already used on Clan heavy and assault mechs).

Eg, a Linebacker could run 2x Large Pulse with 6x ER Micro, or an Executioner that currently runs 2x ER PPC + 6x ER Small could swap the Smalls out for Micro Pulse.

Heck, I expect Nova and Viper builds that use massed ER Smalls will quickly swap to Micro Pulses.

Khobai, on 18 March 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

but adding micro lasers without protomechs or elementals is just pointless. id be perfectly okay with clans getting less new tech than IS if clans were getting useful stuff. but micro lasers are not useful.

giving clans less new tech as well as new tech thats useless is just unacceptable.

I've already said why Clans aren't getting as much new tech; in TT there simply isn't as much new tech available for Clans.
If PGI gives Clans an equal amount of new tech as IS, there would be no other Clan tech available for future tech updates.

Edited by Zergling, 18 March 2017 - 01:35 PM.

[Sniper09121986]

Edward Hazen, on 18 March 2017 - 12:34 PM, said:

IS Omnis will not be as good as people are thinking they will. If PGI sticks to lore with the IS omnis, they will have fixed armor, internal structions, heatsinks, jump jets and engines just like Clan omnis, but all of the tech will be IS tech. Being able to choose your hardpoints is not that much of an advantage, since non-omnis can be modified how ever you want between any match.

Fafnir for IS and Blood Asp for clans

Actually the fundamental problem with IS omnis is their engine. The IS has been having fits and throwing tantrums over their one-shot XL engines the whole time, and for good reason. Now if they could not swap these engines at all, do you imagine the butthurt? That is why spheroids (and PGI) must be very selective about their omnis. Say, Hauptmann is fine because it has STD and gives zero damn anyway, but http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Templar is extremely risky. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Men_Shen could be manageable, just like Owens since they seem to have somewhat Marauder-esque stature, and that thing is quite durable.

Fafnir and Blood Asp seem like a fixture, not sure why they have not pushed them out straight away. Most likely later in the year.

[Khobai]

Quote

As a result, both of these weapons would very tonnage efficient as brawler weapons for mechs that have large numbers of energy hardpoints.

if its not better than a small pulse or er med laser it has no use.

[Nando2552]

The cougar is my favorite light clan mech and Im glad its in the game now instead of having to wait 9 years .But the cougar having jump jets was one of the features it had as a successor to the adder. so if its not to much trouble could at least another cougar variant have jump jets like the prime. Thanks PGI

p.s. the cougar had a speed of 86 kph those 5 kph could come in handy

[Zergling]

Khobai, on 18 March 2017 - 04:30 PM, said:

if its not better than a small pulse or er med laser it has no use.

For a mech that has the hardpoints to spare, they likely will be better than small pulse, at the expense of range.

There are plenty of Clan mechs that can run a pair of Large Pulse/ER PPCs, one/two ballistics or some missiles while still having 6 energy hardpoints to use.

Eg: Kit Fox (with Purifier side torsos), Hunchback IIC-A, Huntsman, Nova, Stormcrow, Ebon Jaguar, Hellbringer, Linebacker, Timber Wolf, Gargoyle, Marauder IIC, IIC-8, Executioner, Kodiak -1, -5.

I could see mixed Micro Laser builds being used on any of those.


Adder, Mist Lynx, Ice Ferret, Shadow Cat, Mad Dog, Summoner, Orion IIC, Warhawk and Highlander IIC are all too constrained in hardpoints to make much use of them.

Night Gyr, Supernova and Dire Wolf have enough hardpoints, but they just have too much weight available for them to be useful options for those mechs; if they want a short ranged punch, they are better off with Small or Medium Pulse.

And Viper can likely boat them entirely, but I can't see them being that useful on the Arctic Cheetah or Jenner IIC; Small Pulses or ER Meds would work better on those two lights.

Edited by Zergling, 18 March 2017 - 05:21 PM.

[Arkhangel]

once again, Clans ain't getting RACs because PGI doesn't add Experimental tech (they have a few experimental Mechs, but no weapons or other stuff)

If clans ended up with RACs, by that logic, IS would be getting like seven more weapon systems, like Hyper Velocity ACs, Silver Bullet Gauss, Bombast Lasers and Blazers, and so on.

I'm not against you guys getting HAGs and Plasma Cannons though, specially given it'd mean we get Plasma Rifles ourselves. and none of those are experimental tech.

Edited by Arkhangel, 18 March 2017 - 06:00 PM.

[TKG]

Sniper09121986, on 18 March 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

Good pick actually, and they could simply leave out empty tonnage and place instead of C3. Another solid option is http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hauptmann A very decent assault even with STD engine.

Except that in combat the Hauptmann was garbage because it was a product of typical Steiner strategic thinking... it's big, slow, box-shaped and carries a bunch of guns. A smart person would not reinvent the wheel since numerous older but upgraded assault mechs do it's job but better.

Edward Hazen, on 18 March 2017 - 12:34 PM, said:

Fafnir for IS and Blood Asp for clans

No one in their right mind thinks that the fafnir is good...except the steiners who also think a mech that is 50% guns and 50% armor and moves at 0/0.5 is acceptable.