676 replies to this topic

[MechB Kotare]

Hmmm. MC MKII wont be a battlemech?

[Gas Guzzler]

MechB Kotare, on 28 March 2017 - 12:38 PM, said:

Hmmm. MC MKII wont be a battlemech?

Yes it will. Unlocked engine/ferro/jjs/endo/ whatever.

[MechB Kotare]

Gas Guzzler, on 28 March 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:

Yes it will. Unlocked engine/ferro/jjs/endo/ whatever.

Cool. Any idea what is the largest engine it can mount?

[Sniper09121986]

Arkaiko, on 28 March 2017 - 12:31 PM, said:

IS ERPPC: 10 damage, 13.5 heat, 810 range, 7tons
CLAN cERPPC: 15 damage, 14 heat, 810 range, 6 tons / BETTER (just0,5 more heat for 50% more damage and lighter)

IS ERLL: 9 damage, 8 heat, 657 range, 5tons
CLAN cERLL: 11 damage, 10 heat, 740 range, 4 tons / BETTER (2 more heat, but more range and damage and lighter)

IS LPL: 11 damage, 7 heat, 365 range, 7tons
CLAN cLPL: 13 damage, 10 heat, 600 range, 6 tons /BETTER (2 ore damage, almost same range as IS ERLL and lighter)
clan tech is overal lighter, got more range and better damage than IS variants, in fact the only worst is the heat, and isnt so much, but clan players are whining for heat from begginning, with the new skill tree clan weapons gonna get quirks too, so, why clan players are stil whinning?

Clan PPC does 10 damage for all I care. The other 5 dmg is spread to two adjacent components by 2.5 dmg each, i.e. wasted.

IS ERLL: 1.25 duration, 1.13 damage per unit of heat
CLAN cERLL: 1.50 duration, 1.10 damage per unit of heat

IS LPL: 0.67 duration, 1.57 damage per unit of heat
CLAN cLPL: 1.12 duration, 1.30 damage per unit of heat

Not trying to dispute any of your data, only goes to provide alterhative facts and show that both parties can pull a strawman in this (or almost any) matter.

[I cant want to]

splash damage is by no means wasted damage, and adds up over the duration of a match

difference in damage per heat means very little when the range difference means you can deal damage with little fear of being damaged in return

[Corviness]

Sniper09121986, on 28 March 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

Clan PPC does 10 damage for all I care. The other 5 dmg is spread to two adjacent components by 2.5 dmg each, i.e. wasted.

IS ERLL: 1.25 duration, 1.13 damage per unit of heat
CLAN cERLL: 1.50 duration, 1.10 damage per unit of heat

IS LPL: 0.67 duration, 1.57 damage per unit of heat
CLAN cLPL: 1.12 duration, 1.30 damage per unit of heat

Not trying to dispute any of your data, only goes to provide alterhative facts and show that both parties can pull a strawman in this (or almost any) matter.

This is also a answer to Arkaido.

Like I said, Clanmechs got more range and IS got more DPS.
Thx Sniper, for showing this information, I don't write.
We don't need to discuss this, its clear if you look carfully, you see that by Snipers post.

I don't have problems with the update, also my whole team.

The only thing I say all the time, why PGI make it so hard with the balance-problem.
You could also do that by balance teams for example 1.5 IS vs 1 CL (This is not a real or tested balance number), and all would be find. Easier than dequirk and quirk weapons, heatmanagement, armor, agility and so on.

My team does an event with house kurita, where we build some scenarios on several maps, because we are mad about the same modes everytime. We tested how much IS is needed against clanners to balanced the chances by tons and players. So the tonnage was about 1.4 IS tons against 1 CL tons and something about 10 clanners vs 12. I dont have the exact statistic, but it worked perfectly.
The scenarios where played in private lobby WITHOUT quirks. I laugh and cry at the same time about pgi, how they desperatly WANT to balance since 3 years.
Its so easy, we dont need more than 2 WEEKS!

Edited by Corviness, 29 March 2017 - 03:40 AM.

[Zergling]

Corviness, on 29 March 2017 - 03:31 AM, said:

Like I said, Clanmechs got more range and IS got more DPS.

Actually, Clan mechs have more DPS in addition to more range.

Corviness, on 29 March 2017 - 03:31 AM, said:

The only thing I say all the time, why PGI make it so hard with the balance-problem.

You could also do that by balance teams for example 1.5 IS vs 1 CL (This is not a real or tested balance number), and all would be find. Easier than dequirk and quirk weapons, heatmanagement, armor, agility and so on.

My team does an event with house kurita, where we build some scenarios on several maps, because we are mad about the same modes everytime. We tested how much IS is needed against clanners to balanced the chances by tons and players. So the tonnage was about 1.4 IS tons against 1 CL tons and something about 10 clanners vs 12. I dont have the exact statistic, but it worked perfectly.

The scenarios where played in private lobby WITHOUT quirks. I laugh and cry at the same time about pgi, how they desperatly WANT to balance since 3 years.

Its so easy, we dont need more than 2 WEEKS!

Asymmetric balance is a terrible idea, because most players won't like playing weaker mechs than their opponents.
This will lead to most players wanting to play Clans, despite that faction needing the fewest players to fill a battle.

End result of that? Ridiculously long queues that will drive players away from the game.

Edited by Zergling, 29 March 2017 - 04:15 AM.

[MovinTarget]

Additionally, most people have a biased view of "balance" that would either normalize the tech completely (lore mongers would have a heart attack) or boils down to "I don't want balance i just to play w/e and not be penalized by facing people that *try* to maximized their effectiveness in a given situation.

Again, the balance problem is not as much about the tech as the mixture of players using that tech to varying degrees of efficacy.

[Edward Hazen]

Zergling, on 29 March 2017 - 04:14 AM, said:

Asymmetric balance is a terrible idea, because most players won't like playing weaker mechs than their opponents.
This will lead to most players wanting to play Clans, despite that faction needing the fewest players to fill a battle.

End result of that? Ridiculously long queues that will drive players away from the game.

I know this guy blocks me, but he really likes to assume that everyone feels the same way he does about "balance". Yes, initially, asymmetric teams and Clan / IS separation will increase queue time, but I PERSONALLY believe that once players see the increased gameplay quality, they will start queuing more often.

I like the previously mentioned idea of 10 Clan vs 12 IS with IS having a 1.4 ton to every Clan ton advantage and with no quirks.

[Chris Puetz]

Edward Hazen, on 29 March 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

I know this guy blocks me, but he really likes to assume that everyone feels the same way he does about "balance". Yes, initially, asymmetric teams and Clan / IS separation will increase queue time, but I PERSONALLY believe that once players see the increased gameplay quality, they will start queuing more often.

I like the previously mentioned idea of 10 Clan vs 12 IS with IS having a 1.4 ton to every Clan ton advantage and with no quirks.

But.....
This is thrown every few weeks into the ring but PGI wants or can not implement it!
Since the implemention of the Clans, there is the 10 vs. 12 discusion!

If this could be everyone ( or nearly everyone, especially the lore fraction) would love it!

But PGI don't want to implement it, so there is no need to discus it! Thats the fact!

[Sniper09121986]

chaothulhu, on 28 March 2017 - 02:09 PM, said:

splash damage is by no means wasted damage, and adds up over the duration of a match

difference in damage per heat means very little when the range difference means you can deal damage with little fear of being damaged in return

When we are talking about the heat, we are talking about some damage or no damage at all, because overheat. It might not matter at long range since you may simply choose not to poke out just now and cool off, but in a brawl with nowhere to hide it is very important. As for splash damage, it only serves to pad your stat, not to get kills and therefore wins. It is not enough to just "damage" the other guy, you want to smack through his armour, blow out his most important components and throw him all the way to the main menu with the least possible expenditure of time and ammo, and for that you need not only to aim well, but to hit exactly where you aim. Splash damage is not giving you that, and those inconsequential numbers are useful only to the kind of bads that keep packing their D-DC with XL engines and lurms and voting for Polar Scrublands just to meet the criteria for the current participation trophy.

MovinTarget, on 29 March 2017 - 04:34 AM, said:

normalize the tech completely (lore mongers would have a heart attack)

Actually this is more or less what happens in Dark Age, where not only the IS is stuffing their mechs with Clan gear, but, say, Clan Wolf starts using the unique IS tech like XL gyro (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Wulfen) or TSM and bombast laser (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Skinwalker). If PGI ever dares venture into Dark Age territory then mixed tech is exactly what has to happen. The canon allows it, the construction rules allow it, so why not? It sure does not seem like any other solution would work at this point, even before implementing all the new stuff.

[Edward Hazen]

Chris Puetz, on 29 March 2017 - 10:39 AM, said:

But.....
This is thrown every few weeks into the ring but PGI wants or can not implement it!
Since the implemention of the Clans, there is the 10 vs. 12 discusion!

If this could be everyone ( or nearly everyone, especially the lore fraction) would love it!

But PGI don't want to implement it, so there is no need to discus it! Thats the fact!

People have successfully pestered PGI into changing their minds before. In my opinion, adding asymmetrical teams and getting rid of quirks all together would be easier to accomplish than the skill tree that they are trying to (partially) replace quirks with.

[Edward Hazen]

Sniper09121986, on 29 March 2017 - 10:43 AM, said:

Actually this is more or less what happens in Dark Age, where not only the IS is stuffing their mechs with Clan gear, but, say, Clan Wolf starts using the unique IS tech like XL gyro (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Wulfen) or TSM and bombast laser (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Skinwalker). If PGI ever dares venture into Dark Age territory then mixed tech is exactly what has to happen. The canon allows it, the construction rules allow it, so why not? It sure does not seem like any other solution would work at this point, even before implementing all the new stuff.

Actually they made the Word of Blake OP to force Clans and IS to work together to defeat them and then they introduced the Dark Age to "balance" out the tech. After the Dark Age, the BattleTech universe is basically reset. If PGi can not stick to lore in the current timeline, they should just go all out and advance the timeline to the post Dark Age / current (Catalyst) timeline.

[fireball 4]

Wait Dark Age... and nobody is trashing you for saying it? I'm in!

Give me my Lament and radical heat-sink system!

You say that's not fair? Well... its still cool tech! So give it and my Savage Wolf!

What? THAT'S really broken because of ferolamer armor? But it cost +90 million C-bills, and that's if the C-bill wasn't worth nothing in that time.

Wait, the only place i can get a replacement XXL fusion engine is from clan Diamond shark and Friends? Might need to reconsider my mech choice.

signed
the community designated that guy

Edited by fireball 4, 29 March 2017 - 02:19 PM.

[Edward Hazen]

fireball 4, on 29 March 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

Wait Dark Age... and nobody is trashing you for saying it? I'm in!

Give me my Lament and radical heat-sink system!

You say that's not fair? Well... its still cool tech! So give it and my Savage Wolf!

What? THAT'S really broken because of ferolamer armor? But it cost +90 million C-bills, and that's if the C-bill wasn't worth nothing in that time.

Wait, the only place i can get a replacement XXL fusion engine is from clan Diamond shark and Friends? Might need to reconsider my mech choice.

signed
the community designated that guy

No, I said the current, POST-Dark Age (after the HPG network was rebuilt) and it is basically just like it was right after the fall of the (first) Star League, except that the factions are a bit different. Mainly, though, everyone basically has equal technology in the post-Dark Age.

[MovinTarget]

Edward Hazen, on 29 March 2017 - 03:18 PM, said:

No, I said the current, POST-Dark Age (after the HPG network was rebuilt) and it is basically just like it was right after the fall of the (first) Star League, except that the factions are a bit different. Mainly, though, everyone basically has equal technology in the post-Dark Age.

I get what you saying, but you *know* people will claim imbalance no matter what PGI does. If it is not the tech, its the mechs themselves having hardpoint starvation or poor placement of said hardpoints.

So when I said everyone gets the same tech, i mean *everything*... same hardpoint position, same # of hardpoints... heck lets just make everyone have to run laser vomit timbers...


...and people will still scream there is imbalance... because in their heads, they should be winning more and it's not their mech selection, tech selection, or even just a unfortunate streak of potato teams... its always someone else's fault.

Thats why there are so many thread on both sides accusing the other side of being OP.

The truth is, in FP anyway, its the same pros bouncing back and forth, rolling pugs on both sides. They are good, they are *that* good... and its funny how you seldom see the top players complain about balance... its because they do not play casually.

Edited by MovinTarget, 29 March 2017 - 03:33 PM.

[Edward Hazen]

MovinTarget, on 29 March 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

I get what you saying, but you *know* people will claim imbalance no matter what PGI does. If it is not the tech, its the mechs themselves having hardpoint starvation or poor placement of said hardpoints.

So when I said everyone gets the same tech, i mean *everything*... same hardpoint position, same # of hardpoints... heck lets just make everyone have to run laser vomit timbers...


...and people will still scream there is imbalance... because in their heads, they should be winning more and it's not their mech selection, tech selection, or even just a unfortunate streak of potato teams... its always someone else's fault.

Thats why there are so many thread on both sides accusing the other side of being OP.

The truth is, in FP anyway, its the same pros bouncing back and forth, rolling pugs on both sides. They are good, they are *that* good... and its funny how you seldom see the top players complain about balance... its because they do not play casually.

Agreed, top players rarely play solo in the QP queue, so they do not have the perceived imbalance that many solo players believe in because they are not used to being on coordinated teams that pick the right Mechs for the job.

In fact, many times, if I do see a "top-player" solo in QP, they usually rush forward and expect the rest of their pug team to understand the strategy they envision and to behave like the coordinated teams that they come from and then they die first and spend the rest of the game blaming the pugs.

Edited by Edward Hazen, 29 March 2017 - 03:57 PM.

[MovinTarget]

Edward Hazen, on 29 March 2017 - 03:54 PM, said:

they usually rush forward and expect the rest of their pug team to understand the strategy they envision and to behave like the coordinated teams that they come from and then they die first and spend the rest of the game blaming the pugs.

I took out the "top player" part before referring to myself but yes... I admit I've done this... I try not blame pugs afterwards because I fully believe that one drops in solo QP at one's own risk...

[Mcgral18]

MechB Kotare, on 28 March 2017 - 12:41 PM, said:

Cool. Any idea what is the largest engine it can mount?

400

All info here
https://mwomercs.com/civil-war

Edward Hazen, on 29 March 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

I know this guy blocks me, but he really likes to assume that everyone feels the same way he does about "balance". Yes, initially, asymmetric teams and Clan / IS separation will increase queue time, but I PERSONALLY believe that once players see the increased gameplay quality, they will start queuing more often.

I like the previously mentioned idea of 10 Clan vs 12 IS with IS having a 1.4 ton to every Clan ton advantage and with no quirks.

This would literally kill the game
No one would queue Spheroid (at least, certainly not enough to support the queue) and as a result, even slower MM.
Asymmetrical balance is fine, but OP AF Clams are not

Balance properly

[fireball 4]

"No, I said the current, POST-Dark Age (after the HPG network was rebuilt) and it is basically just like it was right after the fall of the (first) Star League, except that the factions are a bit different. Mainly, though, everyone basically has equal technology in the post-Dark Age."

hmm what book details post dark age? I thought they said they were going to move the time line forward this year.
I'm working off of field manual 3145 for most my dark age fix.

Edit: And what did they do to balance ferolamer and rad heatsink further?

Edited by fireball 4, 29 March 2017 - 09:08 PM.