64 replies to this topic

[Lugin]

Andi Nagasia, on 14 March 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

IS LBX, the 10 aside, weigh the same a standard AC, and take a additional crit.
For instance, the 20 weighs 14 tons and eats 11 crits.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LB_2-X_AC 6 tons, 4 crits
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LB_5-X_AC 8 tons, 5 crits
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LB_20-X_AC 14 tons, 11 crits

Ultras look correct for mass & crits.

ER lasers, based on straight TT stats for range would have optimal range for small be 150m, and the medium be 360m. Given how the ranges for lasers in general have been fudged around, it's hard to predict.

Streaks
SSRM 4 is 3 tons, 1 crit.
SSRM 6 is 4.5 tons, 2 crits.

Range is still 270m.

Light Gauss is fine. 16 point explosion when destroyed.

Heavy Gauss is 18 tons, 11 crits. 25 point explosion when destroyed.
Reminder: Crits and mass have NEVER been adjusted.
That said, working the falloff into the range dependent damage nature of the weapon is clever.
Though using that pattern, optimal would only be 180m for the full 25 points.

RACs are mostly correct, with range being the issue.
IS RAC/2 optimal is 540m.
Clan's is 750m.
IS RAC/5 optimal is 450m.
Clan's is 630m.

Clan versions start development in 3069, are experimental, and they are not included in the announcement.

Machine Guns
Relative to standard (IS/Clan) MG:
Light MG weighs the same, half the damage, double the range, same ammo/ton.
Heavy MG weighs double, 2/3 range, 150% damage, half ammo/ton.

MRMS
Range is 450m for all of them.
Don't know on the streamfire, but it would replicate the gunnery penalty when firing them.

Rocket launchers
RL10 is 0.5 tons, 10 damage, 3 heat, 1 crit, 540m range
RL15 is 1 ton, 15 damage, 4 heat, 2 crits, 450m range
RL20 is 1.5 tons, 20 damage, 5 heat, 3 crits, 360m range

Light & Heavy PPC look fine.

Snub-Nose PPC
Damage falloff starts at 270m, to 5 damage at 450m.
Otherwise looks fine.

LFE is correct. It takes the exact same crit space as Clan XL.

Light Ferro
Half the weight savings for half the space.
Standard FF has 12% more points per ton of armor than standard.
Light FF has 6%.

Stealth armor
Basically the way ECM has been since implementation (at range).
Requires an ECM suite, and when active generates 10 additional heat per round, and the unit mounting it is treated as if it is inside a hostile ECM bubble.

Targeting computers
Given how PGI implemented the Clan version, I have no input here.

Laser AMS
1.5 tons/2crits for IS, 1ton/1crit for Clan.
7 heat per round (10 sec) while actively firing for IS, 5 heat for Clan.

ER Micro
0.25 tons, 1 heat, 2 damage, 1 crit, 120m (opti)

Micro Pulse
0.5 tons, 1 heat, 3 damage, 1 crit, 90m (opti)

Heavy Lasers
Ranges are the same as IS standard lasers of the same size.
Small is 3 heat for 6 damage.
Med is 7 heat for 10 damage.
Large is 18 heat for 16 damage.

Light TAG
Range is 270m (Regular TAG is 450m)

ATMs
Max range (ER ammo) is 810m.
For perspective, LRM max in TT is 630m.

Light Active Probe looks correct.

Edited by Lugin, 14 March 2017 - 05:28 PM.

[fat4eyes]

Whatever happens I hope they make the different PPC and laser types look different from the current ones. Not only will it make the battlefield look cooler (imagine purple and green ppcs!) it would also be easier to see what kind of weapon is hitting you. Same thing for the lasers. I hope they make heavy lasers look like laser arrays, or have cool distortion particle effects around them.

Very curious about how they differentiate mrms from srms at close range. If they do that wrong srms will be obsoleted.

Also curious about microlasers. I can't really see any current mech needing them. It's almost as if they're going to add stuff that will actually use them (elementals?!).

Edited by fat4eyes, 14 March 2017 - 06:34 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Ok everyone, ive Finished updating the Topic, reread and post your Thoughts, Thanks

[FupDup]

Andi Nagasia, on 14 March 2017 - 08:10 PM, said:

Ok everyone, ive Finished updating the Topic, reread and post your Thoughts, Thanks

You didn't finish updating ATMs...PGI already specified that they aren't going to have ammo switching or different sub types. Their damage will scale based on distance in order to simulate the different ammo effects.

[Andi Nagasia]

FupDup, on 14 March 2017 - 08:11 PM, said:

You didn't finish updating ATMs...PGI already specified that they aren't going to have ammo switching or different sub types. Their damage will scale based on distance in order to simulate the different ammo effects.

i did, 250-750-1250 (0-250=3) (251-750=2) (751-1250=1) though i guess i can make it abit more linear?

Edit=
ok ive changed the ATM Ranges to 0-300m 1200mMax,
(300=3Dam)(600=2Dam)(900=1Dam)(1200=0Dam)

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 14 March 2017 - 08:22 PM.

[Clanner Scum]

According to the stats you should be able to run an LBX20 in the dragons right arm.

Can also run dual RAC2.

Edited by Clanner Scum, 15 March 2017 - 12:03 AM.

[A Man In A Can]

Quote

but they can hold 3 different types of ammo,
because of problems with this we can expect 3 launchers,
ATM-HE / ATM-STD / ATM-ER

This part of ATMs is what's still incorrect.

There will only be ONE type of ammo, and there will NOT be Standard, HE, or ER ATMs. Just ATMs with scaling damage.

To represent this property, this is what the weapon stats should look like.

Weapon,...Damage,...Heat,...Velocity,...Cool-down,...Range,....Max Range,..Tons,..Crit*,
ATM3,............9*............2.........230...........3.50...............0*.............1200.........1.5.......2...
ATM6,...........18*...........4.........230...........4.00...............0*.............1200.........3.5.......3...
ATM9,...........27*...........6.........230...........4.50...............0*.............1200...........5........4...
ATM12,.........36*...........8.........230...........5.00...............0*.............1200...........7........5...
(*Point of damage falloff starts at 0m)

Also, the Heavy Gauss Rifle has a property very similar to this in TT. So its damage should be 25* and range 0* with the same footnote.

Edited by ThatNumbGuy, 15 March 2017 - 02:30 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Accused, on 14 March 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

We can talk about all day about what they should do. What PGI will do worries me. The technology needs public testing for at least a month before introduction.

No worries. Someone will complain anway...and then it goes the same way ED, Info WF, and Skill Tree went

[Mcgral18]

Skanderborg, on 14 March 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

One question is , how much heat does laser ams actually develop? How much heat can i expect if its firing constantly when a LRM boat has a good lock on me?

Chuck B, on 14 March 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

Laser AMS will be tricky to balance. First thing I though of is an LRM 5 boat chain firing near targets to cause the targets AMS to fire heating them up. Making them less effective at countering a push by teammates. Laser AMS on a Laser/PPC build will be a no go.

They'd never overheat from AMS alone, and ideally the isLAMS would be less hot, because tonnage

But one unit is about a third or quarter of your dissipation, nothing more

[StealthdragonB]

Ummm if rockets are one shot why do they have a cool down stat? If they are one shot then to my understanding they aren't gonna fire again.

Edited by StealthdragonB, 15 March 2017 - 05:37 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

StealthdragonB, on 15 March 2017 - 05:35 AM, said:

Ummm if rockets are one shot why do they have a cool down stat? If they are one shot then to my understanding they aren't gonna fire again.

um,.... shhhhhh, you didnt see anything,.... (ya my mistake on that one, thanks for pointing it out)

[Andi Nagasia]

Mcgral18, on 15 March 2017 - 04:45 AM, said:

They'd never overheat from AMS alone, and ideally the isLAMS would be less hot, because tonnage

But one unit is about a third or quarter of your dissipation, nothing more

maybe alittle heat if you have 3 and they are going off shooting down missiles,

[Mcgral18]

Andi Nagasia, on 15 March 2017 - 01:57 PM, said:

maybe alittle heat if you have 3 and they are going off shooting down missiles,

0.5 and 0.7 H/s

Your TrueDubs dissipate 2.3 H/s under the current system
You'd need 4 Spheroid AMS to start generating heat (without anything else)

It will be the same as Stealth Armor when using 2 cLAMS systems
I do hope they have the same, or Spheroid LAMS has a better heat value, because it weights half again as much

[Andi Nagasia]

Mcgral18, on 15 March 2017 - 01:59 PM, said:

0.5 and 0.7 H/s

Your TrueDubs dissipate 2.3 H/s under the current system
You'd need 4 Spheroid AMS to start generating heat (without anything else)

It will be the same as Stealth Armor when using 2 cLAMS systems
I do hope they have the same, or Spheroid LAMS has a better heat value, because it weights half again as much

comparatively assuming support light/medium, 2AMS how much heat should they generate?
assuming +20%ish heat for Clan & -20%ish Heat for iS?

[Sandslice]

Just a thought on stealth armour: maybe it could work this way.

Benefits:

• Renders you almost invisible. Since merely being immune to being targeted isn't that interesting in MWO, the effect needs to be worth the drawback; hence, I'd look to incorporate Chameleon LPS into MWO's stealth armour to make it actually do something. The effect would be greatest at standstill, and its "transparency" would decrease as your speed increases.
  
• Renders you immune to being targeted even if you are seen.
  
• Renders you actually invisible in Thermal vision mode.

Drawbacks:

• Very hot system; in TT, it was effectively 1 heat per second, though massively curtailing heat efficiency (like Jump Jets or standing in the "water" on Terra Therma) should do the trick.
  
• It requires an ECM (and is thus a tech ONLY for ECM variants,) but active stealth armour causes your ECM to do nothing but harm you as though you were standing in enemy ECM. Stealth armour, for the same reason, is *disabled* if the ECM is destroyed.
  
• It takes 2 "uncrittable" critical slots in each component except the Head and Center Torso. While this is fewer lost slots than endo or ferro, these slots are not dynamic; you lose both legs' slots outright.
  
• Seismo still defeats it (because you can't disguise the mini-earthquakes caused by your movement.) This could be a problem for Skill Tree because it's easy to take seismo if you're speccing your Sensors for derp anyway.

Objective:

• The goal of stealth armour, as I see it, is to allow its carrier to scout and set up positions, much like a Star Trek cloak.
  
• As a defensive and recon tool, it should be difficult (at best) to use it aggressively.
  
• The way the system's heat drawback works should introduce some element of skill, as opposed to just being Improved Raven Box.

[Mcgral18]

Andi Nagasia, on 15 March 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

comparatively assuming support light/medium, 2AMS how much heat should they generate?
assuming +20%ish heat for Clan & -20%ish Heat for iS?

Nothing percentage based

Just a flat H/s value which would be deduced from their cooling.
Same as HoverJets™

[Weeny Machine]

Sandslice, on 15 March 2017 - 03:06 PM, said:

Just a thought on stealth armour: maybe it could work this way.

Benefits:

• Renders you almost invisible. Since merely being immune to being targeted isn't that interesting in MWO, the effect needs to be worth the drawback; hence, I'd look to incorporate Chameleon LPS into MWO's stealth armour to make it actually do something. The effect would be greatest at standstill, and its "transparency" would decrease as your speed increases.
  
• Renders you immune to being targeted even if you are seen.
  
• Renders you actually invisible in Thermal vision mode.

Drawbacks:

• Very hot system; in TT, it was effectively 1 heat per second, though massively curtailing heat efficiency (like Jump Jets or standing in the "water" on Terra Therma) should do the trick.
  
• It requires an ECM (and is thus a tech ONLY for ECM variants,) but active stealth armour causes your ECM to do nothing but harm you as though you were standing in enemy ECM. Stealth armour, for the same reason, is *disabled* if the ECM is destroyed.
  
• It takes 2 "uncrittable" critical slots in each component except the Head and Center Torso. While this is fewer lost slots than endo or ferro, these slots are not dynamic; you lose both legs' slots outright.
  
• Seismo still defeats it (because you can't disguise the mini-earthquakes caused by your movement.) This could be a problem for Skill Tree because it's easy to take seismo if you're speccing your Sensors for derp anyway.

Objective:

• The goal of stealth armour, as I see it, is to allow its carrier to scout and set up positions, much like a Star Trek cloak.
  
• As a defensive and recon tool, it should be difficult (at best) to use it aggressively.
  
• The way the system's heat drawback works should introduce some element of skill, as opposed to just being Improved Raven Box.

And that's the problem: if SA doesn't defeat seismic (which it shouldn't imo for the reason you mentioned) it is not much better than a regular ECM. The only exceptions are running into a BAP radius or a UAV. However, the number 1 reason for a drawing fire as a brawler, assassin or just a light mech is seismic and definetly not BAP or UAVs

[Sandslice]

Quote

And that's the problem: if SA doesn't defeat seismic (which it shouldn't imo for the reason you mentioned) it is not much better than a regular ECM. The only exceptions are running into a BAP radius or a UAV. However, the number 1 reason for a drawing fire as a brawler, assassin or just a light mech is seismic and definetly not BAP or UAVs

Yet allowing stealth armour to defeat seismo, while not necessarily a bad thing for the game, would violate the laws of physics. No amount of signature-concealing baffles can muffle the ground's physical reaction to a large vehicle repeatedly bouncing off it.

[Andi Nagasia]

Bush Hopper, on 15 March 2017 - 11:00 PM, said:

And that's the problem: if SA doesn't defeat seismic (which it shouldn't imo for the reason you mentioned) it is not much better than a regular ECM. The only exceptions are running into a BAP radius or a UAV. However, the number 1 reason for a drawing fire as a brawler, assassin or just a light mech is seismic and definetly not BAP or UAVs

Stealth Armor as its a pretty hefty Price for it(12Crits) needs to be viable for Lights(as they will mostlikely take it)
-
i think reducing the ECM Counter Range from 0.25(200m) to 0.05(40m) would help alot, making it perfect Stealth,
yes you could always bring CAP/BAP, but an ECM Light against as Streak Mech with out such would be Worry Free,
-
another option is giving Stealth Armor a Radar Dep Like Effect(3sec Lockon Delay to Enemy Mechs)
giving lighter mechs equipping Stealth Armor more Wiggle Room, helping Protect them from Streaks,

[Weeny Machine]

Sandslice, on 15 March 2017 - 11:32 PM, said:

Yet allowing stealth armour to defeat seismo, while not necessarily a bad thing for the game, would violate the laws of physics. No amount of signature-concealing baffles can muffle the ground's physical reaction to a large vehicle repeatedly bouncing off it.

I think actually that seismic is too strong in general. ECM is also problematic because it is often a kind of hardcounter. This part of info warfare, with detection ranges and ECM as a delaying factor, was pretty great. Especially because it would have helped light mechs to overcome an inherent problem, the low tonnage, to some degree because they would have been detected later. I still cannot understand why it was scrapped.

Andi Nagasia, on 16 March 2017 - 05:23 AM, said:

Stealth Armor as its a pretty hefty Price for it(12Crits) needs to be viable for Lights(as they will mostlikely take it)
-
i think reducing the ECM Counter Range from 0.25(200m) to 0.05(40m) would help alot, making it perfect Stealth,
yes you could always bring CAP/BAP, but an ECM Light against as Streak Mech with out such would be Worry Free,
-
another option is giving Stealth Armor a Radar Dep Like Effect(3sec Lockon Delay to Enemy Mechs)
giving lighter mechs equipping Stealth Armor more Wiggle Room, helping Protect them from Streaks,

As I said above: seismic is too easy to get for this incredible powerful effect. It cuts through everything. What annoys me really is that situational awareness is actually a part of being skilled. Seismic completely negates that. You don't even need to be at zero movement. Just get off the "w" key for a second and you get your info.