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Clan Mechs Are Awful


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#41 Athom83

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 09:45 AM

View PostFireStoat, on 23 March 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

I'm honestly very curious as to what will happen when the tech update drops and IS obtains new weapons and especially the new light fusion engine, while retaining their quirks that were listed on the last PTS build with the PDF doc release.

LFEs are heavier than XLs, so they'd have to reduce their firepower. ERs are very hot, so they'd have to watch their heat more and fire less or sacrifice some armor/firepower for more DHS. The UACs/LBXs aren't that different than the standard in most cases, and only provide some flavor to fine tune the playstyle. I've said this multiple times; RACs are too heavy of an investment for most mechs, requiring around 20 tons per gun to equip them properly, so you'll only really see them on some heavies and assaults. But they are both capable of burst damages ranging around 18 DPS.

#42 Jackal Noble

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 09:56 AM

View PostAthom83, on 23 March 2017 - 09:35 AM, said:

I'll stop you there.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9efdfa064350728
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1ca1a2bd8e091da
While the IS one has some more (very little) component HP, the clan version is still vastly superior in just about every way. It has some left over tonnage, can lose an ST and keep fighting, has more slots remaining, has a higher damage output and range, and will last longer over the battle to do even more damage.

And your point about "pod space" is invalid as while the IS can have higher HP per DHS, the clan can make up for that by having more DHS in the pod. With an XL engine IS mechs can fit 3 DHS in the torso, the clan ones can fit 5. 30HP for IS vs 33 HP for clan.


On those builds alone - staying on topic and not pulling strawman's - The IS jenner has ~25 more bonus hitpoints in components alone . Not even counting structure.

To touch on your end comment about stuffing DHS - On a lot of Clan builds (at least mine) you end up with empty, unused crits/ pod space - why is that a bad thing? Tell me if you know. Now the MarauderIIC - ya that thing was created to boat in general - but you need to, to stay cool. But not every clan mech is a MarauderIIC

#43 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 09:58 AM

View PostJackalBeast, on 23 March 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

But not every clan mech is a MarauderIIC

Not every IS mech is a Battlemaster 2C, that argument goes both ways......

#44 Bud Crue

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 10:02 AM

View PostJackalBeast, on 23 March 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:


On those builds alone - staying on topic and not pulling strawman's - The IS jenner has ~25 more bonus hitpoints in components alone . Not even counting structure.

To touch on your end comment about stuffing DHS - On a lot of Clan builds (at least mine) you end up with empty, unused crits/ pod space - why is that a bad thing? Tell me if you know. Now the MarauderIIC - ya that thing was created to boat in general - but you need to, to stay cool. But not every clan mech is a MarauderIIC


Jackalbeast,

Are you really holding out the IS Jenner as an example of a tougher than normal mech? Disproportionally healthy? OP?
If that shi7 isn't a straw man...

#45 Jackal Noble

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 10:13 AM

No man, I started off on a weapon HP rant, than decided to focus on lower weight classes and their comparable DHS HP survivability, and rounded it off by adding the word strawman.

#46 CDLord HHGD

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 10:22 AM

Posted Image

#47 Deathlike

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 10:25 AM

This thread... I don't even...

#48 Athom83

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 10:28 AM

View PostJackalBeast, on 23 March 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

On those builds alone - staying on topic and not pulling strawman's - The IS jenner has ~25 more bonus hitpoints in components alone . Not even counting structure.
Oh boy, an extra total of 25 component HP where one can be killed by 48 damage to the ST while the other would only be partially disabled. Staying on the topic of "Clan mechs are awful", I'd rather take that Clan Jenner over the IS one as it is better in practically every way..

View PostJackalBeast, on 23 March 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

To touch on your end comment about stuffing DHS - On a lot of Clan builds (at least mine) you end up with empty, unused crits/ pod space - why is that a bad thing? Tell me if you know. Now the MarauderIIC - ya that thing was created to boat in general - but you need to, to stay cool. But not every clan mech is a MarauderIIC
And you assume that every IS mech stuffs the 3 DHS with an XL engine in both torsos? And most clan builds I see out there do stuff the torso with DHS, so... :/.

#49 Monkey Lover

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 10:29 AM

View PostJackalBeast, on 23 March 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

WHY IS NO ONE COMMENTING ABOUT THE BLOODY COMPONENT HIT POINTS?????!!!!
Going off the top of my head from last night - really can't believe dis crap. In most cases clan components have just barely over half of the hit points of their IS counterparts. It's just a bit bizarre. I've been mostly dropping in my Inner Sphere mechs, because I don't want to deal with it yet.

Clam srms - like 3.5 HP IS SRMS - like 7.5
Clam UAC10/LBX10 - 10hp ISAC10 -15
Clam UAC 5 - 7.5 points IS AC5/UAC5 - 12hp
Clam UAC20/LBX -16.5 pts IS AC20 - 25 points!!
Clam ERPPC - 7.5hp IS PPC/ER - 12.5 HP
Clam ERLARGE - 6.6HP IS ERLARGE -10 Hp
Clam ER Med - 5 HP IS Med - ? didn't check
Clam DHS - 6.6 HP IS DHS - 10HP
Clam Gauss(12 tons) - 5HP, 100% crit on hit IS Gauss (15T) 10 HP, 90% on crit.

You get the point.


Also - Oh hey look its an IS loyalist stating how their clan mechs are fine, Overpowered in fact - That's original and you never see that on these forums. ( Streaks are dumb and if you use them, you are not very good)


Both sides were nerfed on the HP. I'm guessing no one is talking about it because it doesn't really matter. I was running my clan and IS mechs last few days I dont remember any of them getting crit out.

#50 Kael Posavatz

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 10:33 AM

View PostMonkey Lover, on 23 March 2017 - 06:38 AM, said:

This post is why it's taken 3 years to get some what of a clan -IS balance.


Actually no. The reason why it has taken 3 years to get something of a Clan/IS balance is because PGI did an exceedingly poor job of balancing the Clans pre-release.

What I cannot decide is: did they realize just how poorly the had balanced Clan/IS and thought that dialing the Clans back in one (or nearly one) go would reveal to the world just how poor of a job they had done? OR, did they not realize how poorly they had balanced the two and it has taken them this long to get close.

#51 Monkey Lover

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 10:39 AM

View PostKael Posavatz, on 23 March 2017 - 10:33 AM, said:

Actually no. The reason why it has taken 3 years to get something of a Clan/IS balance is because PGI did an exceedingly poor job of balancing the Clans pre-release.

What I cannot decide is: did they realize just how poorly the had balanced Clan/IS and thought that dialing the Clans back in one (or nearly one) go would reveal to the world just how poor of a job they had done? OR, did they not realize how poorly they had balanced the two and it has taken them this long to get close.


It was easy to see on the clan wave 1 pts it was op. Looked to me they did a pay2win for few months then couldn't pull them back without people freaking out. My dire after release was one shot laser spam killing lights lol.

#52 FireStoat

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 10:58 AM

View PostAthom83, on 23 March 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

LFEs are heavier than XLs, so they'd have to reduce their firepower.


I'll stop ya right there. Only a narrow margin of IS mechs are somewhat safe to take an XL on, because we are assuming for the moment that you are facing enemies that are following the meta and know how to aim. The people who are playing their best in IS mechs with Standard engines that have been heavily quirked (again, the Thunderbolt / Grasshopper for FW play) are going to get a substantial leg up on their current performance with the LFE.

So when we are talking about FW, IS are NOT going to see a reduction in their firepower. It will go up significantly.

Edited by FireStoat, 23 March 2017 - 10:59 AM.


#53 Monkey Lover

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 11:06 AM

View PostFireStoat, on 23 March 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:


I'll stop ya right there. Only a narrow margin of IS mechs are somewhat safe to take an XL on, because we are assuming for the moment that you are facing enemies that are following the meta and know how to aim. The people who are playing their best in IS mechs with Standard engines that have been heavily quirked (again, the Thunderbolt / Grasshopper for FW play) are going to get a substantial leg up on their current performance with the LFE.

So when we are talking about FW, IS are NOT going to see a reduction in their firepower. It will go up significantly.


I run xl on my grasshoppers and std on my tbolts. It would be a wash for me. But I do agree over all its a buff to heavy/assault mechs. Mediums and lights not so much. Maybe we will start seeing boarheads with 400lfxl soon. :P




#54 InspectorG

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 11:08 AM

#saveourkdk-3s

#55 Jackal Noble

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 11:21 AM

View PostInspectorG, on 23 March 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

#saveourkdk-3s

activate dumpster fire

#56 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 11:26 AM

View PostFireStoat, on 23 March 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

So when we are talking about FW, IS are NOT going to see a reduction in their firepower. It will go up significantly.

Good thing no one really plays FW in significant numbers since it is still a bit of a dumpster fire.

IS mechs either sacrifice significant speed/firepower/sustainability to mount a STD engine for very little benefit, and they will STILL sacrifice things when using LFEs. Now whether those quirks like those on the BLR-2C are too much is another story, we will find out but not every meta IS build uses STD engines (in fact more use XLs and still will even with LFEs).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 23 March 2017 - 11:29 AM.


#57 Mawai

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 11:52 AM

View PostDakota1000, on 23 March 2017 - 07:28 AM, said:


I'm not talking about this patch in specific, I'm talking about what has been done in about the past year of changes. Its been creating a trend in which other weapon types have been receiving large nerfs while ERPPCs haven't had many nerfs and their buffs have been more so than the nerfs and gauss, while being nerfed, is still pretty decent for backing them up, leading to today's gauss+PPC meta.


You need to keep in mind that we are just going back to the gauss/PPC meta ... we've been there before. All it indicates is that PGI is continuing to adjust the overall weapon balance.

This is something they should be doing ALL the time and in my opinion far more frequently.

During the last gauss/PPC meta phase there was no one who would have said we would have a laser meta phase ... they were almost utterly useless compared to the PPFLD damage from gauss/PPC. However, they nerfed the gauss with the trigger delay and desynced the projectile speeds so folks actually switched to laser vomit builds. Things are just swinging back the other way a bit which is completely to be expected. The goal is to make most build variations reasonably useful.

This brings us around to the whole concept of how to balance this game.
- balance IS weapons
- balance clan weapons
- balance IS vs clan weapons
However, weapons are only part of the story.
- clans also have lighter components that use fewer crit slots
- clan XL engines that don't kill the mech on side torso loss (and provide XL benefits without the risk)

ALL of this is BEFORE they can reasonably address individual mechs with good/bad hit boxes and high/low mounted hard points.

If they try to balance the mechs BEFORE doing at least the first few passes at weapon and tech balance then they end up with a situation where all the balance shifts every time they change the balance of weapons. They also have to maintain massive tables of quirks for individual mechs.

Based on PGI recent actions, it would seem that someone has identified the entire issue of trying to balance mechs before at least a minimum level of tech/weapon balance being in place as a waste of time and resources.

They are removing as many quirks as possible, trying to develop an algorithm to better balance individual weapons between clan and IS, basing mobility off mech weight class and not engine removing one of the advantages of a clan XL engine, reducing health of clan components to try to address the fact that they weigh less and require fewer crit slots. Expect MORE changes like this to make clans and IS more comparable in MWO.

Finally, I think PGI ultimately realized that they won't be able to make IS weapons equal to clan weapons in the 3053 time frame without breaking the atmosphere/feel expected of clans. By advancing the time line they can introduce a variety of weapon tech on the IS side that can be used to balance the clan weapons out a bit. THIS is the other reason they are removing quirks. They are trying to balance tech a bit and will introduce new tech to make up the difference. Presumably by fall 2017, the game balance will look completely different than it does today with new IS tech combined with skill trees.

Personally, at that point, I think underperforming mechs could be balanced by a free extra allocation of skill points ... or points that could be applied as the player wishes to purchasing quirks that fit the role they want for that specific mech. By moving the balance mechanism into a simple additional skill point allocation (or mech bonus point allocation), they leave the choices to the players and the ONLY decision they need to make is how many balance points each mech chassis will receive. Greatly simplifies the balance mechanism while allowing greater player choice ... win/win from both a player experience and developer perspective.

#58 Wintersdark

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 12:01 PM

Yeah, weapon nerfs can hit all sorts of things, as can faction tech nerfs.

This does NOT mean they shouldn't happen.

The reality is that average clan Mechs are still superior to average IS Mechs, and poor clan Mechs are better than poor IS Mechs.

These faction wide hits need to happen. There will always be good and bad Mechs, it's a consequence of them having varied shapes and hardpoints. Mech specific balancing needs to happen too, but that doesn't preclude weapon balancing and faction tech balancing.

#59 Hobbles v

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 12:01 PM

View PostJackalBeast, on 23 March 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:


On those builds alone - staying on topic and not pulling strawman's - The IS jenner has ~25 more bonus hitpoints in components alone . Not even counting structure.

To touch on your end comment about stuffing DHS - On a lot of Clan builds (at least mine) you end up with empty, unused crits/ pod space - why is that a bad thing? Tell me if you know. Now the MarauderIIC - ya that thing was created to boat in general - but you need to, to stay cool. But not every clan mech is a MarauderIIC


Basic math here. Assume 4 back Armour on all examples.

To kill a Jenner IIC from the front you either kill the CT 62 Armour/structure (A/S for brevity) or go both side torsos 88 A/S
to kill an Oxide the toughest IS Jenner: single side torso 52 total A/S or CT 73 A/S

65 Ton example
EBJ - CT 122 A/S or 2 side torso 170 A/S
Top Dog, the toughest IS 65 Tonner. Single side torso if XL 101 A/S or CT 138 A/S

In either case using the toughest IS mechs, the IS only have the advantage in durability if they run a standard engine. If XL (require on most mechs that want to compete) the kill shot on an IS mech takes less damage. I think weaker components inside those mechs that take more damage to drop is a good balance.

Edited by Hobbles v, 23 March 2017 - 12:04 PM.


#60 Wintersdark

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 12:06 PM

View PostDakota1000, on 23 March 2017 - 06:59 AM, said:


The gauss and PPC nerfs this patch only were a few changes to the crit damage they deal. UACs got cut down by heavy jam chance increases and jam duration times and higher heat, SRMs got spread increased ontop of already higher values for clanners, ERML, ERSL, and LPL had max range heavily reduced, Clan components got weakened by a considerable amount in the health department, and the TCs got their bonuses based off the TC7, which was regarded as the most useless one now.

Basically I'm just saying that in comparison to the other weapon types gauss and PPC combo is looking like the best weapon sets at the moment and the meta agrees. ERML and LPL spam still continues as a second class meta but UAC builds that aren't full boats and SRM builds are the underclass.
The PPC and Gauss nerfs are the biggest nerfs.

Metas change all the time, though. Even without PPC/Gauss builds, clans are still absolutely competitive. Sure, launcher for launcher, IS SRM launchers are better.... But our Clan launchers weigh HALF AS MUCH, and take less space. This leaves tonnage for other weapons, ammo, heat sinks... While running safe XL engines.

"And the meta agrees" - we were in a PPC / Gauss meta before this, so clearly this isn't the reason why.






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