143 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wintersdark, on 23 March 2017 - 12:06 PM, said:

The PPC and Gauss nerfs are the biggest nerfs.

Except people thinking crit changes will stop these weapons aren't understanding what made these weapons meta in the first place, and I can tell you right now it had NOTHING to do with their crit capability. So people need to stop acting like this suddenly changes the meta away from PPC/Gauss.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 23 March 2017 - 12:16 PM.

[Mystere]

Athom83, on 23 March 2017 - 06:14 AM, said:

"I've been using loadouts with the SRMs (that got nerfed), the UACs (that got nerfed) and the Small T-Comps (that got nerfed) and the nerf hurt them" So you've been using exploits and are complaining they were removed?

I think this one right here gets the "Stupid Award of the Day". Since when did normal game features suddenly become "exploits"?

[Wintersdark]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 March 2017 - 12:15 PM, said:

Except people thinking crit changes will stop these weapons aren't understanding what made these weapons meta in the first place, and I can tell you right now it had NOTHING to do with their crit capability. So people need to stop acting like this suddenly changes the meta away from PPC/Gauss.

I didn't say it would.

Honestly, I'm endlessly irritated by people (not saying you) assuming that all balance changes must be about changing whatever the current meta is. There's a bigger picture here.

This change is a good one. Not because PPC/Gauss is currently popular, but because fixing the crit system is worth doing, and it's broken right now (and always has been). Overhauling it would be preferable, but at least this helps stop weapons that are already ideal for their own attributes for being ALSO ideal for other things too.

No, this isn't going to make "crit weapons" better, but at least they'll be better at what they're supposed to do instead of simply worse at everything period.

[C E Dwyer]

L.O.L

Seriously stop trying to get your clan mechs buffs they don't need, been playing them extensively for two months and my Average Match Score didn't take a xdump, until I started mastering the Assassin.

[Lupis Volk]

Yes OP IS is indeed OPAF. Yesterday two IS 40t mediums and a wolfhound took on three Jenner 2c's and won, not the fact that the jenner pilots were trash didn't help. But why let facts get in the way of a good cry huh?

[Nick86]

I thought OP was banned a while back..? PGI must be real desperate for players!

[Lupis Volk]

Nick86, on 23 March 2017 - 12:35 PM, said:

I thought OP was banned a while back..? PGI must be real desperate for players!

Or you know it could have been a temp ban?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wintersdark, on 23 March 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

I didn't say it would.

Wasn't really responding to you so much as adding to your comment. People keep talking about nerfs like it impacted the meta or something like that when it didn't in the slightest.

[Athom83]

Mystere, on 23 March 2017 - 12:29 PM, said:

I think this one right here gets the "Stupid Award of the Day". Since when did normal game features suddenly become "exploits"?

*Looks back the the "feature" of the 1000% missile cooldown Quickdraw* *looks back again at the Direstars and Gigadrills* When those features are in of themselves broken, using them alone is exploitation.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

Hobbles v, on 23 March 2017 - 12:01 PM, said:

Basic math here. Assume 4 back Armour on all examples.

To kill a Jenner IIC from the front you either kill the CT 62 Armour/structure (A/S for brevity) or go both side torsos 88 A/S
to kill an Oxide the toughest IS Jenner: single side torso 52 total A/S or CT 73 A/S

65 Ton example
EBJ - CT 122 A/S or 2 side torso 170 A/S
Top Dog, the toughest IS 65 Tonner. Single side torso if XL 101 A/S or CT 138 A/S

In either case using the toughest IS mechs, the IS only have the advantage in durability if they run a standard engine. If XL (require on most mechs that want to compete) the kill shot on an IS mech takes less damage. I think weaker components inside those mechs that take more damage to drop is a good balance.

This a perfect comparison. But the thing that is not mentioned here is the shape of the mechs. Jenners are notorious for being all CT. So in practical application most damage and deaths happen to the CT making the Oxide and Jenner IIC much closer in the live game than the paper math suggests. This may not be the case for the Top 1% of the game, but for the majority it is true, or we wouldn't have structure quirks on the Jenner and it would not have needed a hitbox rework to begin with so, I'd venture to say PGI's data bears this out.

You could posit the same argument with the thunderbolt and ebon. The Ebon CT is far easier to hit than the Tbolt CT for most players.
I don't disagree with your assessment, I just want to point out that mech geometry plays a role and that comparing just the numbers doesn't always tell the full story of balance.

Which seems to be the OPs point. PGI's nerfs are hurting under performers far more than over performers mostly because well shaped robbits will always have an advantage.

[chucklesMuch]

I was piloting clam mechs last night.... and I was awful!

Some teams didn't help much. .. but frankly I was just playing really bad!

Where do I go to get buffs

[MischiefSC]

I can't blame him too much. Clans were originally stupid clownshoes wearing pants on head stupid OP. Then over 2 years they got dialed back to just "flat out all around superior". Then more recently they got needed all the way down to just "best in class" with cxl/cendo and lighter weapons, etc. However you need to use the good mechs with good loadouts and actually put a little effort into it to get the slight advantage they have out.

People who've been playing Clans for years never had to learn to build the best possible mech, position, twist, how to trade, how to gauge which enemy mechs they could beat directly and who they couldn't, strengths and weaknesses, etc. Just built a mech, walked out and started shooting. Better range, more DHS, more damage/alpha, survive ST loss, more speed, etc. Always had every advantage. As that's scaled back and we've gotten closer to balance those players are at a growing disadvantage to people who had to learn to play better instead of just have inherently better gear.

Anyone who thinks IS is better than Clans is just running into the reality that people who win as IS had to learn to play better to win consistently. They're going to switch to IS and die on ST loss because they never had to learn to twist. They're going to either get out-tanged or they're going to get out DPSed in their ERLL builds because they're not used to mechs that are only good in a narrow window.

It's got to be frustrating. I can only hope they get past the hump of their own inability to adapt and learn to play good.

Or if not, give me their stuff when they quit.

[Khobai]

the reality is nobody likes their stuff getting nerfed. clans have every right to be pissed about repeated nerfs

PGI did not handle clan vs IS balance properlyl when they first introduced clans. and now clan players have to pay for PGI's incompetence with repeated nerfs that never wouldve been necessary had balance been handled properly from day 1.

so of course clan players are going to be angry about it. I mean who wouldnt be?

the least PGI could do is give clans some more new weapons/equipments to take some of the bite out of getting constantly nerfed. All the stuff that clans should have by 3068 like XXL engines, HAGs, ER pulses, Streak LRMs, etc... but instead they pissed off clans doubly by shafting them on new tech and leaving out those important tech advances.

Edited by Khobai, 23 March 2017 - 01:22 PM.

[SuomiWarder]

I own around 90 IS mechs and four Clan ones. Even post patch my clan ones consistent do more damage and allow me to get out of trouble that my IS ones are too slow to escape from. So I fail to see the complaint as a rational one.

[J0anna]

The bigger problem here is the more we nerf, the more likely the new civil war weapons coming out this summer are going to be watered down versions of the same things we have now. In other words, we have reached end game. Weapons will never be more powerful for either clans or IS, as we keep trying to keep level 1 tech viable. All ranges will be forced down to keep useless level 1 tech in play.

I wish PGI would remove all weapon modules/skills and make weapons deadly. Right now the game is stagnant, and if the "new" civil war weapons aren't significantly better than the level 1 weapons in use now (like IS and clan ERML's back up to 800+ m range), there really is no reason to even have a 'timeline' as nothing will ever change.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 23 March 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

but instead they pissed off clans doubly by shafting them on new tech and leaving out those important tech advances.

Yes, ignoring the fact that the Clans already have more toys

Khobai, on 23 March 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

so of course clan players are going to be angry about it. I mean who wouldnt be?

Rational people......

[Mawai]

JackalBeast, on 23 March 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

On those builds alone - staying on topic and not pulling strawman's - The IS jenner has ~25 more bonus hitpoints in components alone . Not even counting structure.

To touch on your end comment about stuffing DHS - On a lot of Clan builds (at least mine) you end up with empty, unused crits/ pod space - why is that a bad thing? Tell me if you know. Now the MarauderIIC - ya that thing was created to boat in general - but you need to, to stay cool. But not every clan mech is a MarauderIIC

No. The IS Jenner doesn't have any bonus hit points due to components. You seem to misunderstand (or I am) the significance of component hit points.

As far as I know, component hit points affect exactly ONE aspect of play. How easily that component will be destroyed by a critical hit. ONLY. The component hit point values have NO effect on mech destruction requirements. The only thing that affects those are structure and armor quirks .. otherwise it is determined by how much armor you put on and the weight class.

All the component hit point difference do is make a component more or less difficult to destroy when a critical hit is allocated.

Any weapon striking an exposed mech section (one without armor) has a chance to inflict 1,2 or 3 critical hits. The percentage chance for each drops. The base chance is on the order of 10%. If a critical is scored, the weapon does some fraction of additional damage allocated directly to a component. When the damage received by a component exceeds its health it is destroyed. The extra critical damage MAY also damage the overall structure (I don't know how PGI allocates it) but the component health has NO effect on the extra critical damage it is used ONLY to determine if an allocated critical has done sufficient damage to destroy the component.

This is another reason why clan mechs are more durable ... most have extra tonnage and crit spaces available to fill the chassis with double heat sinks or other equipment which when present reduce the probability that a weapon will be hit by a critical. (they also have built in CASE so that an ammo critical will only destroy the associated mech section rather than the entire mech).

[Hunchening]

J0anna, on 23 March 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

The bigger problem here is the more we nerf, the more likely the new civil war weapons coming out this summer are going to be watered down versions of the same things we have now. In other words, we have reached end game. Weapons will never be more powerful for either clans or IS, as we keep trying to keep level 1 tech viable. All ranges will be forced down to keep useless level 1 tech in play.

I wish PGI would remove all weapon modules/skills and make weapons deadly. Right now the game is stagnant, and if the "new" civil war weapons aren't significantly better than the level 1 weapons in use now (like IS and clan ERML's back up to 800+ m range), there really is no reason to even have a 'timeline' as nothing will ever change.

Wow, that is a terrible line of thought

Who would even WANT new weapons to be balanced? A ridiculous concept


They ARE going to be different versions of what we have ATM
There's no ignoring that.
Missiles
Lasers
Dakka

[Monkey Lover]

Khobai, on 23 March 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

the reality is nobody likes their stuff getting nerfed. clans have every right to be pissed about repeated nerfs

PGI did not handle clan vs IS balance properlyl when they first introduced clans. and now clan players have to pay for PGI's incompetence with repeated nerfs that never wouldve been necessary had balance been handled properly from day 1.

so of course clan players are going to be angry about it. I mean who wouldnt be?

the least PGI could do is give clans some more new weapons/equipments to take some of the bite out of getting constantly nerfed. All the stuff that clans should have by 3068 like XXL engines, HAGs, ER pulses, Streak LRMs, etc... but instead they pissed off clans doubly by shafting them on new tech and leaving out those important tech advances.

Sorry but no clans don't have the "right" my artic cheater has been op from the day 1. It's been nerfed over and over and it's still better than IS lights. Clans have been OP for a long time and because they freak out so much they never did a real nerf they needed.

As for tech ,I was kind of surprised clans didnt get more tech. They kind of just gave IS the same stuff clans had and both got a few new things. Over all nothing is really new. Just the same stuff we already had packaged up differently.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 23 March 2017 - 01:40 PM.

[LT. HARDCASE]

DjPush, on 23 March 2017 - 06:19 AM, said:

Macro AC5s and AC2's on IS mechs are killing it right now.

i'm preeeetty sure that the Night Gyr is MWO's reigning AC2 God