40 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

Just as the Title Says,
Balancing IS to Clan Upgrades by Engines Internal Heat Sink Counts?
would it be something that could be used to help balance IS to Clan Upgrades?

=IS Engine HS Storage Concept=
all IS type Engines allow them to store more internal HSs,
Engines would gain +1HS internal Storage over Engine Rating 150(250Clan)
this would effectively allow IS mechs to hold 4 more DHS internally over Clan,
-
this would allow IS mechs to over come their DHS taking up 3 Slots,
with out otherwise changing IS DHSs, allowing for better Faction balance,


Light Mechs Such as this (UM-R60) would Benefit
the 175XL would hold that Last DHS internally,

as well as Assaults Such as this (HGN-732B) would Benefit,
the 300STD would allow it to hold 4 more DHS internally, so +3DHS for that,
as compared to this (HGN-IIC) same Number of DHSs(21Both)
but the HGN-732B will be cooler as IS Lasers,


this change would be rather Simple,

Module faction="InnerSphere" CType="CEngineStats" name="Engine_XL_300" id="3358">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\XLEngine.dds" descTag="@Engine_XL_Fusion_300_desc" nameTag="@Engine_XL_Fusion_300"/>
<EngineStats health="15" heatsinks="12" weight="15.5" rating="300" [b]sidesToDie="1" [/b]sideSlots="3" slots="6"/>

Change the (heatsinks="12") to (heatsinks="16")

Module faction="InnerSphere" CType="CEngineStats" name="Engine_XL_300" id="3358">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\XLEngine.dds" descTag="@Engine_XL_Fusion_300_desc" nameTag="@Engine_XL_Fusion_300"/>
<EngineStats health="15" heatsinks="16" weight="15.5" rating="300" [b]sidesToDie="1" [/b]sideSlots="3" slots="6"/>

done, test on the PTS, and if it doesnt have the Right Result no harm done,
(you would need to change 121 Items(as IS have 121 Engines(60XL)(61STD)


=(Poll)=


Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 16 June 2017 - 12:27 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Y'know, simply letting certain choice weapons run colder (i.e. MedLas and SLas, which should anyway) would fix the issue in a much cleaner fashion, yes?

[El Bandito]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 March 2017 - 06:53 PM, said:

Y'know, simply letting certain choice weapons run colder (i.e. MedLas and SLas, which should anyway) would fix the issue in a much cleaner fashion, yes?

I am all for making ML run cooler, but IS small laser class is utter crap even if they run cooler.

[Andi Nagasia]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 March 2017 - 06:53 PM, said:

Y'know, simply letting certain choice weapons run colder (i.e. MedLas and SLas, which should anyway) would fix the issue in a much cleaner fashion, yes?

perhaps, but dont they already, i did a test with Heat Profiles of 3ERLL vs 3CERLLs,
they ended up being balanced because Clan needed more DHSs to match up everything,
give me a sec to see if i can find it,

ok it was in a Topic about giving CERLL a GH limit of 3 instead of 2,

Andi Nagasia, on 18 March 2017 - 02:56 PM, said:

they do the same(almost) Damage/Tick, increasing GH to 3(Tonnage/Cits Aside(3 of Each)
would give you the same Viability, the difrence is the Clan ERLL can fire for longer,
but if both hold for 1.25 then they will do almost the same damage,

a MAD with 15DHS +3ERLL, has 51% cooling Efficiency,
a TBR with 19DHS +3ERLL, has 51% cooling Efficiency(+4DHS mean 4Tons/8Crits)
so you need 1more Ton & 5more Crits just to match Cooling efficiency,

as long as IS ER-ML/SL follow the Above Formulas and are balanced,
i have no problem with decreasing heat to both IS ML & SL,

but then again this change would also help give IS mechs some more Crit Freedom,
which can be hard for IS Lights, especially sub 250 engined Lights, like the LCT, COM, & UM,

[Mcgral18]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 March 2017 - 06:53 PM, said:

Y'know, simply letting certain choice weapons run colder (i.e. MedLas and SLas, which should anyway) would fix the issue in a much cleaner fashion, yes?

True, but this could be a thought for the STD engine
Give it +2

Thus, able to carry +4 DHS over a XL mech (STs+the 2 CT mounts)...among other buffs.

[Pixel Hunter]

I would be okay with this. small engines only get one though

[Y E O N N E]

Andi Nagasia, on 28 March 2017 - 07:01 PM, said:

perhaps, but dont they already, i did a test with Heat Profiles of 3ERLL vs 3CERLLs,
they ended up being balanced because Clan needed more DHSs to match up everything,
give me a sec to see if i can find it,

I'm specifically referring to the Medium, Medium Pulse, and Small lasers which run way too hot for their range brackets. I'm also referring to the ER PPC, which runs hotter than any IS 'Mech can cool off without dedicating the entire 'Mech to doing so (i.e. I run a Dragon with 21 DHS) and without the extra bonus damage to make it worth it.

The large-class lasers are fine exactly where they are.

[762 NATO]

I think the balance between clan tech and IS tech is actually pretty good. If anything, it feels weighted in favor of IS. And then there is a big tech increase coming soon. If anything, a buff to clan tech should be in order. The series of clan weapon nerfs and IS structure buffs were to balance gameplay between current IS tech and clans. With the new tech coming and hopefully skill tree, combined with new tech, un-nerfing the clans would be nice. Also making drop tonnages closer to the same.

Our unit plays both sides and changes weekly, so this isn't a OMG Clammers Sux PGI PLZ NERF Something by any means.

Cheers!

[Mcgral18]

762 NATO, on 29 March 2017 - 04:45 AM, said:

I think the balance between clan tech and IS tech is actually pretty good. If anything, it feels weighted in favor of IS. And then there is a big tech increase coming soon. If anything, a buff to clan tech should be in order. The series of clan weapon nerfs and IS structure buffs were to balance gameplay between current IS tech and clans. With the new tech coming and hopefully skill tree, combined with new tech, un-nerfing the clans would be nice. Also making drop tonnages closer to the same.

Our unit plays both sides and changes weekly, so this isn't a OMG Clammers Sux PGI PLZ NERF Something by any means.

Cheers!

What is with these Clam apologists?

[Andi Nagasia]

what is proposed here is just to give IS abit of a boost, when it comes to Crits,
4DHS(12Crits) is huge, it also helps Smaller IS mechs fit in Endo/Ferro + Sub 250 heat sinks,
Clan lights dont have that much of a problem with this as their Endo/Ferro is only 7 Crits not 14,

Mcgral18, on 28 March 2017 - 07:07 PM, said:

True, but this could be a thought for the STD engine
Give it +2

Thus, able to carry +4 DHS over a XL mech (STs+the 2 CT mounts)...among other buffs.

actually i would support a boost on top of this to standard Engines to help them out abit,
along with what i propose here a +2Internal HSs to STD Engines over what is proposed here could help,
(IS-STD125 = +1HS(normal IS-XL175 = +1HS)(C-STD225 = +1HS(normal C-XL275 = +1HS)

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 29 March 2017 - 07:36 AM.

[Mechteric]

It wouldn't benefit ballistics based mechs (e.g. Jagermech), so you'd end up with no effective buff for all IS mechs, just those that run hot and don't have enough crit slots to stuff everything. Pretty much just energy vomit builds.

[Khobai]

id rather just have all engine ratings lower than 250 always have a minimum of 10 internal heatsinks.

that way mechs that cant use 250 engines never get shafted on heatsinks


and I dont think IS engines should get more internal heatsinks, but I do think if they ever add engine crits, that IS engines should get more crit health. that fits the ongoing theme of clantech being more streamlined but more fragile and IS tech being bulkier but more rugged.

and I dont think engine crits should necessarily kill you either, because we dont need lower TTK, but if your engine gets critted it should slow you down and affect your heat dissipation. So like your engine could be critted upto 3 times, each time adding a cumulative speed/heat penalty, but it shouldnt destroy your mech like in battletech.

I think thats a fair way of adding engine crits without lowering TTK.

Edited by Khobai, 29 March 2017 - 09:46 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

CapperDeluxe, on 29 March 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

It wouldn't benefit ballistics based mechs (e.g. Jagermech), so you'd end up with no effective buff for all IS mechs, just those that run hot and don't have enough crit slots to stuff everything. Pretty much just energy vomit builds.

true, but even if its just slightly it does help balance IS DHS taking up 3Crits vs Clan 2Crits,
so if you have a Energy Heavy Mech you can still get needed DHSs even though they are larger than Clan DHSs,

[Andi Nagasia]

Khobai, on 29 March 2017 - 09:38 AM, said:

and I dont think IS engines should get more internal heatsinks, but I do think if they ever add engine crits, that IS engines should get more crit health. that fits the ongoing theme of clantech being more streamlined but more fragile and IS tech being bulkier but more rugged.

well this idea is to both help IS Energy Boats and IS lights 4IS-DHS is 12Crits,
its these Bonus Crits that could help with Endo and Ferro taking up more Space as well,

[Ced Riggs]

Doesn't address the core issue: XL engines are deathwishes because of the ST killshot. During FP, it's more than common to ask for XL checks on clan side, because that is the signle point of failure. Tweaking heat will only cause further imbalance and make this more of a mess. The LFE, by and of itself, already does a better job at addressing the issue than this idea here would.

[Mystere]

Sigh! The IP itself shows the way, and yet we still come up with all of these (sometimes crazy) new mechanics and other things.

Edited by Mystere, 16 June 2017 - 09:50 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Ced Riggs, on 16 June 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

Doesn't address the core issue: XL engines are deathwishes because of the ST killshot. During FP, it's more than common to ask for XL checks on clan side, because that is the signle point of failure. Tweaking heat will only cause further imbalance and make this more of a mess. The LFE, by and of itself, already does a better job at addressing the issue than this idea here would.

mainly because its not seeking to address that issue,
its seeking to help IS lights, and IS Energy Boats with Greater DHS Counts,
making room for IS-Endo, by giving IS 12 Free Slots, which could help greatly,

this isnt tweaking Heat values, it seeks to allowing IS Lights and Energy boats more freedom in construction,
this alone will help IS lights greatly with there avalable space as most take both Endo and Ferro anyway,
and it would help IS Energy boats as well by making Endo only cost 2Crits(as your saving 12 Crits)

comparing a BL-KNT to a TBR, both being Full Energy both 5ML & 2LPL,
the BL-KNT(Endo) 21DHS & the TBR(Endo+Ferro) 25DHS, with this both builds could be much closer,
as with Light Ferro you could get 2 more DHS, meaning you would have 223DHS, which is 2DHS more,

on the other side of the scale, IS Light Mainly sub-250Rating Lights would gain benefit from this as well,
where 12crits could really help as most if not all IS lights take both Endo and Ferro,

Mystere, on 16 June 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

Sigh! The IP itself shows the way, and yet we still come up with all of these (sometimes crazy) new mechanics and other things.

ok, how des the the IP itself show the way?

[Ruar]

I voted no because there will never be balance as long as the penalty for one is death and penalty for the other is less performance. Even if I'm operating at 50% higher heat it won't matter if my opponent is dead first.

They have to make XL death be the same requirements for both groups or there is no point. Then they can balance other factors like heat and output to provide differences.

[Andi Nagasia]

Ruar, on 16 June 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

I voted no because there will never be balance as long as the penalty for one is death and penalty for the other is less performance. Even if I'm operating at 50% higher heat it won't matter if my opponent is dead first.

They have to make XL death be the same requirements for both groups or there is no point. Then they can balance other factors like heat and output to provide differences.

this topic isnt about XL Death though, but increasing Free Crits to IS mechs,

[Y E O N N E]

Far and away easier to just make the IS DHS more effective.

Or, as I said earlier, making weapons run colder.