270 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Edward Hazen, on 30 March 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

This is true, but many of the "better" players strip down their graphics in the user.cfg to remove ground clutter, environmental effects, to flatten building textures etc so they can see targets from further and shoot through areas that would normally be visually blocked by effects. Again, as I said before, making your game look like MW2 is not necessarily against the TOS, but it is unsportsmanlike.

Since when?

Pretty sure most keep their environment settings on HIGH because of LOD being crap on terrain (which means you might think you have a clear shot when you don't) and the disappearing terrain issue at certain ranges is reduced. Despite what potatoes seem to think, not being able to see buildings that might block your shot is a DISADVANTAGE despite whatever situational awareness advantage it gives you.

I'm pretty sure most in my unit don't even bother with user.cfg anymore because the settings sliders gave us pretty much all we needed (and PGI locked down the user.cfg afaik, so even if you wanted it wouldn't help that much).

MookieDog, on 30 March 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

Well, since the majority of the people who replied to my post are all carrying either clan or merc clan tags your arguments are pretty much invalid. And I doubt you will read past this point. Humor me and read my whole post...

You act like most of us actually care, I've been an IS merc as much as I've been a Clan merc. Pretty sure YOUR argument is invalid based on some weird assumption that are skill level is solely based on "crutches" and not an understanding of how to play the game (learning how to use weapons is much easier than the more nuanced skill like positioning).

MookieDog, on 30 March 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

What I was getting at was, level the playing field. Dont even give the comp teams the ability to chose mechs. There are your eight griffins, bushwackers, or whatever, and PGI could even have a new previously unreleased mech for the final fight.

So you want this game to become chess? Part of the interesting part of comp is team composition and strategies. Playing comp isn't just about who has the better tactical sense and raw player skill, it is about the strategical aspect as well. You sound like the people in Guild Wars who wanted GvG to be the same bland generalist approach/team composition every game rather than someone actually trying a different approach and beating people with it.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 March 2017 - 01:42 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

mdmzero0, on 29 March 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

How is it a cop out, it's true. PGI doesn't balance on comp players alone. And I believe thats why there's always some head-scratchers when jt comes to balance adjustments. As for how balancing on comp players would actually do in practice, I think it would be good, but I dont know because there's no evidence.

Chris Lowrey said they look at Tier 1/Tier 2 data in quick play as one measure of balance during his MRBC interview. They should probably just do Tier 1 data tbh, there is enough diversity in Tier 1 as it is.

[Gas Guzzler]

-Ramrod-, on 29 March 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

I always hear that Best mech setup crap all the time. 1 Gauss 2 PPC...2 Gauss 1 PPC...any mech with a ballistic and energy hardpoint. Same platform over various mechs is not about the mech...its about the reliance on that platform of weapons.

BLOOD WOLF, on 29 March 2017 - 04:53 PM, said:

Do we really want the game balanced around PPC/GUass?

( I am not being serious by the way). I am more than interested in the comp scene and the expansion or improvement of it.

PPC/Gauss is far from the only thing you see in comp.

In order to actually be informed about what you are talking about, you should keep up with competitive play more and view the streams that happen on a weekly basis to see the variety in the competitive scene. Otherwise, you are just judging competitive play off of what you see in quick play which is wrong on so many levels.

[TercieI]

Gas Guzzler, on 30 March 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

Chris Lowrey said they look at Tier 1/Tier 2 data in quick play as one measure of balance during his MRBC interview. They should probably just do Tier 1 data tbh, there is enough diversity in Tier 1 as it is.

"Diversity." What a nice way to say "Kodiak pilots who are doing half the damage (maybe) of my not even speed tweaked Assassins."

[BLOOD WOLF]

Gas Guzzler, on 30 March 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

PPC/Gauss is far from the only thing you see in comp.

In order to actually be informed about what you are talking about, you should keep up with competitive play more and view the streams that happen on a weekly basis to see the variety in the competitive scene. Otherwise, you are just judging competitive play off of what you see in quick play which is wrong on so many levels.

am I to actually believe people can't read the "I am not being serious". Or Should I not be surprised given that it's you that you purposefully didn't bother to read my post.

I already know that PPC/Gauss is far from the only thing. I actually watch the comp matches from time to time. At least is more than proved that some people don't actually read post. you have been making assumptions about what I watch. Oh well, I stand to correct you, now carry on.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 30 March 2017 - 02:11 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

TercieI, on 30 March 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

"Diversity." What a nice way to say "Kodiak pilots who are doing half the damage (maybe) of my not even speed tweaked Assassins."

I would never try to hurt anybody's feelings...

[TercieI]

Gas Guzzler, on 30 March 2017 - 02:09 PM, said:

I would never try to hurt anybody's feelings...

I would. I'm a mean old man. I blame solo queue.

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 30 March 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

Chris Lowrey said they look at Tier 1/Tier 2 data in quick play as one measure of balance during his MRBC interview. They should probably just do Tier 1 data tbh, there is enough diversity in Tier 1 as it is.

I do have some issues, especially regarding the SadCat

They say they look at the Metrics, and I'm assuming that in Potato Land, the Jesus Box means the SadCat would rarely be the first targeted, and often outright ignored (because Thermal is hard)

As a result, if one were to look at the Metrics, they might see the SadCat with higher average damage, or KDr, because it's occasionally the last thing standing


That doesn't fit the reality of the mech, but it still got hit pretty hard, despite being fairly weak.
It's one of those PUG LIFE VS Competitive things...where the Ice Fridge doesn't do much in the PUG LIFE (and still has his quirks) but has a role as the most durable fast mover in required drops

The SadCat was already an inferior poptart to the H2C, yet was nerfed...



Just a thought.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 30 March 2017 - 02:35 PM, said:

I do have some issues, especially regarding the SadCat

They say they look at the Metrics, and I'm assuming that in Potato Land, the Jesus Box means the SadCat would rarely be the first targeted, and often outright ignored (because Thermal is hard)

As a result, if one were to look at the Metrics, they might see the SadCat with higher average damage, or KDr, because it's occasionally the last thing standing


That doesn't fit the reality of the mech, but it still got hit pretty hard, despite being fairly weak.
It's one of those PUG LIFE VS Competitive things...where the Ice Fridge doesn't do much in the PUG LIFE (and still has his quirks) but has a role as the most durable fast mover in required drops

The SadCat was already an inferior poptart to the H2C, yet was nerfed...



Just a thought.

Oh I agree, its by no means bulletproof. Sad Cat, and IMO the Warhammer as well were both victims of Potato Land statistics.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Gas Guzzler, on 30 March 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

. Sad Cat, and IMO the Warhammer as well were both victims of Potato Land statistics.

where is your evidence for that?

How did you rule out that they didn't talk with non-potatoes or that they pulled data from only potato land(what a condescending term by the way).

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 30 March 2017 - 03:15 PM.

[Mcgral18]

BLOOD WOLF, on 30 March 2017 - 03:11 PM, said:

where is your evidence for that?

How did you rule out that they didn't talk with non-potatoes or that they pulled data from only potato land(what a condescending term by the way).

Because they are objectively inferior to their competitors, without those nerfs


They were uncalled for

[AnimeFreak40K]

BLOOD WOLF, on 30 March 2017 - 12:41 PM, said:

why are people still talking about balance?


Nowhere does this talk about game balance, not players,not mechs. This is just talking about the future of competitive mechwarrior online.

nobody cares about anyones opinion about the best mechs, or whats meta. Can we get back to talking about how to improve the competitive scene

Simple answer:
If the question/poll/discussion is about the future of competitive MWO (or any gaming for that matter), then Balance needs to be front-and-center of the discussion from beginning to end.

Competitive players like things to be challenging, but they also like clear rules. They like having the playing-field as level as possible so that they can compete properly.

If you think about it from a real-world sporting perspective, the rules and playing field are designed to be equal for both teams in all ways. The referee/umpire should be objective and call things as they see them and never showing favoritism for one side or the other. Are there variables that one cannot account for? Certainly! But the idea is to minimize the impact those variables have on the greater whole, so it is as close to a team vs. team matter as possible (as opposed to who starts on this side of the field, more expensive sporting equipment, etc.)

In the realm of E-Sports, the concept is the same; the game should be set up such that it does not favor one player/team over another and the options available should have some manner of balance to them. Asking questions such as "Why is this mech objectively better than that mech? Is it pod space? Hard point availability and/or distribution? Quirks?" or "Which mech is objectively superior in [insert role here] over that mech?" are questions that should be asked and addressed.

As a point of clarity, I am not advocating that all weapons/gear/mechs be the same with just different skins; that's stupid.

Rather, I am stating that there should be some clear areas/roles established (even if these are not stated in-game!) and mechs should have quirks/abilities that allow them to fit nicely in that role, with a handful able to handle multiple roles in an acceptable manner or something similar. And these should be further broken down by tonnage; not mech class, but raw tonnage. Again, none of this has to be pointed out directly in-game and it certainly doesn't have to follow lore.

This all being said, it doesn't matter what metrics or methods are used to balance the game for the comp-scene. What matters is that the game *is* balanced. Every single other *successful* and long-running game with a comp scene has balance to it. Every. Single. One. And the people that manage those games are *always* on top of maintaining it.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Mcgral18, on 30 March 2017 - 03:17 PM, said:

Because they are objectively inferior to their competitors, without those nerfs


They were uncalled for

well, that's just opinion, that is not even relevant to what i asked. I ask how do you know that they didn't talk with non-potatoes. Or pull data from any other source. I'll ask for evidence again.

AnimeFreak40K, on 30 March 2017 - 03:18 PM, said:

Simple answer:

no, that's just for you guys to talk about other stuff that can be said in another thread. There is other aspect that still can be explored with the expansion of the comp scene that doesn't revolve dragging the thread for pages on end with balance talk. Which in regard to this thread, I was hoping for.

When their a hundreds of other threads talking about balance, its not a reason to make this one about balance. Lets just stick to the future expansion of the Comp scene and what they can do with that and what that means.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 30 March 2017 - 03:32 PM.

[Liveish]

Eternal Rage, on 30 March 2017 - 07:48 AM, said:

I wish PGI would show some respect to EU customers, since u already post 3 different timezones PGI could also post a CET time maybe? or is that too much work?

As long as they post UTC time its all good, we can all count from UTC with ease

[Gas Guzzler]

BLOOD WOLF, on 30 March 2017 - 03:28 PM, said:

well, that's just opinion, that is not even relevant to what i asked. I ask how do you know that they didn't talk with non-potatoes. Or pull data from any other source. I'll ask for evidence again.

Because the only data that I can think of that would say the Warhammer is strong is from quick play/faction play drops, AKA "Potato Land". Warhammers haven't really been relevant in competitive play since the MWOWC which was an entirely different game than we have now, and even then it wasn't a first choice (I don't think the winning team used Warhammers).

[Mcgral18]

BLOOD WOLF, on 30 March 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:

well, that's just opinion, that is not even relevant to what i asked. I ask how do you know that they didn't talk with non-potatoes. Or pull data from any other source. I'll ask for evidence again.

Just because your opinion doesn't match mine (from the Comp teams) doesn't mean its wrong


There's a whole catalog of matches in which Warhammers are not chosen over Timbies, Summoners and Gyrs.
That is evidence, not opinon



Now, care to tell me WHY the Hammy was nerfed, while the Gyr was unaffected?
The Gyr is the more powerful robot, not opinion, fact.

[Edward Hazen]

Lukoi Banacek, on 30 March 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

Some might argue that the graphics tuning is to reduce the graphics clutter, as you dont maintain LOS for shooting. And macros dont necessarily compensate for a lack of ability, they merely automate the routine. If they accomplished something ypu cannot actually do, itd violate the TOS. So I guess opinions vary on this

I dont use either of your mentioned items but dont begrudge those who do. If its legal per PGI, and everyone can do it, its no different to me than customizing your mech.

edited to remove weird double posting.

My point is that someone who does use these "crutches" should not be able to claim that they have competed on equal footing as some who does not.

Edited by Edward Hazen, 30 March 2017 - 03:37 PM.

[Liveish]

Edward Hazen, on 30 March 2017 - 01:20 PM, said:

To me it is unsportsmanlike because you are modifying the game in a way that it was not intended

People have contracted support and PGI has told them to get better FPS change these settings ? If its not intended, why is PGI advising this, Why are they in the game ?

[BLOOD WOLF]

Gas Guzzler, on 30 March 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:

Because the only data that I can think of that would say the Warhammer is strong is from quick play/faction play drops, AKA "Potato Land". Warhammers haven't really been relevant in competitive play since the MWOWC which was an entirely different game than we have now, and even then it wasn't a first choice (I don't think the winning team used Warhammers).

I asked how do you know that they have not been talking to non-potatoes. The answer you give me is " the only data I can think of". Also 228 Black watch ran an ice ferret in the last MRBC I have seen. So need something more than what you just gave me. Also I don't care what you find is relevant in comp play, I'll judge that by watching the matches. It doesn't matter what the winning team used. If the winning team used a mech you didn't expect, I doubt you would account for an explanation.

Mcgral18, on 30 March 2017 - 03:35 PM, said:

Now, care to tell me WHY the Hammy was nerfed, while the Gyr was unaffected?
The Gyr is the more powerful robot, not opinion, fact.

Since you keep dodging what I am asking, I don't care to tell you anything. Answer me first then maybe I will oblige.

Also you two I don't really care for the specifics of comp play. Useless discussion that leads to nowhere in this thread. Go make a comp team mechs and load-out thread. This thread is about the expansive avenues of the competitive scene.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 30 March 2017 - 03:45 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Gas Guzzler, on 30 March 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

Chris Lowrey said they look at Tier 1/Tier 2 data in quick play as one measure of balance during his MRBC interview. They should probably just do Tier 1 data tbh, there is enough diversity in Tier 1 as it is.

In all honesty T1 and T2 is much of muchness and really, isn't a good gauge.

How often do you see people under performing in T1 QP? I see it basically every match. And it's not about the mechs being chosen, it's the loadouts and how they are being piloted.

That said PGI don't have much else to really go off. It still does not explain how global nerfs to things like UACs came about.

Mcgral18, on 30 March 2017 - 02:35 PM, said:

Spoiler

I do have some issues, especially regarding the SadCat

They say they look at the Metrics, and I'm assuming that in Potato Land, the Jesus Box means the SadCat would rarely be the first targeted, and often outright ignored (because Thermal is hard)

As a result, if one were to look at the Metrics, they might see the SadCat with higher average damage, or KDr, because it's occasionally the last thing standing


That doesn't fit the reality of the mech, but it still got hit pretty hard, despite being fairly weak.
It's one of those PUG LIFE VS Competitive things...where the Ice Fridge doesn't do much in the PUG LIFE (and still has his quirks) but has a role as the most durable fast mover in required drops

The SadCat was already an inferior poptart to the H2C, yet was nerfed...

Just a thought.

I 100% agree. SHC didn't need the nerf at all. I mean you put me in any mech with the Jesus Box and it's far easier to cause destruction than without it. Does that mean the mech is actually overpowered? IMO no. It means the T1 QP users just aren't decent (most of the time).

How many times have you seen the SadCat on the walls of HPG picking off people's backs. They either don't twist/turn around. If they do, they have NFI where the mech is shooting them from cause they can't "see" it on their HUD which apparently means it has gone... So turn around and resume standard programming, die to more backshots.

Said SadCat pilot then gets a big match/dmg score as this is the standard in T1 QP, given Tier is not really an accurate representation of skill as it is grinding. Yet in comp terms did the mech really need a nerf? Probably not in that respect.

Overall T2/T1 QP is not the most reliable source of information in competitive terms. But what else is there?