85 replies to this topic

[FireNova]

Pht, on 07 February 2012 - 05:39 PM, said:

It is not necessary that BT change....

Eh, can't say I really agree. But I guess we can agree to disagree perhaps.

[Sychodemus]

Pht, on 06 February 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

Did you listen to the three moves ahead podcast? This was specifically addressed; they're already making easier versions of the game that still give the feel of the original.


Age does not make something wrong or backwards; and it's slow to play ... so? Play battleforce, or one of the newer versions they're developing. Some of us enjoy a slower paced game that gives someone time to think and strategize.



Why?

Yes, I am well aware of what the developers have revealed about the future of the game(s) and - as I have for over twenty years - I eagerly await the release of such.
Yes, there many different ways to enjoy BT and that is a great strength of the game.
No, I didn't say the game was wrong for being slow or archaic. It is still fun to play it as it was originally presented and I still do. However, the simple fact is that when it comes to BT, the number one complaint of newer players is that the game is slow. I have watched the BT community dwindle down to diehards with a smattering of new players here and there. I just don't think it is very healthy for one of my favorite games. But YMMV.
As to why games must evolve? Short answer: money.

[nightsniper]

I have been playing since Dec 1984 when I purchased the game. I have seen it evolve in so many directions over time. I will agree that the play can be argues and with out constant updating to make it fresh we run the risk of losing the lure for new players but I would point out that they have seen a direction that seems to be sometimes overlooked and that is the success of scenarios. I look at the last great event Mount Diablo. It brought a ton of new interest and blood into the board game unfortunately on the heals of Mount Diablo the focus changed to the dark ages and the click to play minis and new direction backward in tech that turned many board players off.

I would ask what is wrong with refining and adding detail to updated TRO's or data sheets and maybe even a computer based app for your tablet or laptop to calculate data sheets and play results quickly. Instead of worrying about new equipment how about new scenarios within the time line that call into question the set results with in existing time line. Challenges to make or alter the results we now take for granted and then refreshing the publications to represent the actual results. The story line was created by a hand full of writers and their imagination and vision but, can it play out in the real world of the board game why can’t results change time lines alter and new results be published.

The choices are endless the need for new tech and new mechs is way over the top one or two a year with a scenario built around them that can be played with out a predetermined result is key to keeping the game fresh and inviting. Not the latest laser or ballistic that can smoke another mech in one shot or fail and end your mech on the field that scenario is less inviting and threatens to turn off a lot of the base who believe tech is not just the game but planning, strategy in play and lady luck have to bee a major part of the board game. By the way many of the new scenarios should come from suggestions received from the players in the field based on experience play then review and balancing to assure a mixed result based on chance. Nothing better then one side against another challenges either. The Axis of Evil shall be over come and vision of a new faction threat to the stability of the time line.

Mount Diablo stirred sales, stirred interest, Stirred in new blood we need more of that.

[Pht]

Sychodemus, on 13 February 2012 - 02:25 AM, said:

No, I didn't say the game was wrong for being slow or archaic. It is still fun to play it as it was originally presented and I still do. However, the simple fact is that when it comes to BT, the number one complaint of newer players is that the game is slow.

Yes, and people complain when you run starcraft or total annihilation at normal speed - "slow is not bad" we need to teach new players this, and than give them constructive things to do, mentally, while waiting. Teach them to think strategically (goals you want to achieve, what you want to do, why you want to do those things) and tactically (how to achieve that strategy on the board). Teach them to learn from what happened in the last round and the last game. Yeah, there's less going on ... so make what does happen have meaning.

Chess is slow, and it has a following that isn't likely to fall off any time soon; and as far as I'm concerned, chess is a sad sister of Battletech.

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I have watched the BT community dwindle down to diehards with a smattering of new players here and there. I just don't think it is very healthy for one of my favorite games. But YMMV.

It's not the fault of BT that people have less patience and ability to remember and think... our schools for the most part don't require kids to think hard; our news comes in 20 second sound bytes, and extended family for the most part are now forced to communicate via social media in disattached short little blips. We're not patient because quite frankly, we don't have to be, and nobody teaches us the benefits of being such.

Quote

As to why games must evolve? Short answer: money.

Conclusion doesn't follow from the premise. Change does not bring in money just because it's ... change. New coke ring a bell?

EDIT: speaking of "new coke" ...

Quote

On the other hand, the introduction of 4E caused a major schism in the D&D player base and publishing world alike, one that ultimately lead to the rise of the Pathfinder RPG and a fragmentation of D&D’s player base. Go to any game store or basement table playing D&D and you will likely discover groups playing a D&D retroclone, D&D 3.5, the Pathfinder RPG or 4E. While you will find some groups that overlap, for the most part these groups are mutually exclusive.

So what was once one relatively small player base, at least compared to Magic: the Gathering‘s or World of Warcraft‘s, has now split into four groups who (as a quick look at most forums or blogs will reveal) do not get along. The disagreements, rooted in both philosophical and economic differences, have spawned the term “edition wars.”

It’s hard not to predict that the announcement of 5th Edition D&D is going to have the same effect, only this time splitting an already reduced 4E player base into 4E and 5E camps — especially considering that the current edition, which was released in June of 2008, has had such a short life. It is also difficult for me to expect much of a change when it comes to a new edition because most of my issues with the current edition are not due to the system itself but the lack of support and consistent vision from Wizards of the Coast about the game.

http://www.wired.com...ns-and-dragons/

Edited by Pht, 15 February 2012 - 09:21 PM.

[FireNova]

Pht, on 15 February 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

It's not the fault of BattleTech that people are mostly unemployed or have to work more and have little patience for BattleTech government like "regulations" and sacrificing fun for said regulations... We're not patient because quite frankly, nobody cares about hardcore BattleTech lore/rules that keep normal/ordinary/casual people from having fun/free faction choice in this day and age....

Fixed.

Welcome to 2012 and the current generation Pht.

[Pht]

FireNova, on 16 February 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

I don't care if a game that other people really enjoy gets ruined for them because I think for no good reason it should be changed, instead of looking for a different or new game that might hold my interest...

Fixed.

Hey, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

Edited by Pht, 22 February 2012 - 05:35 PM.

[Sychodemus]

Well, as long as people have fun that is all that matters. So, once again to the OP, don't worry. The BT franchise is set to continue on for quite a while, so strap in and enjoy the ride.

[Azantia]

CaveMan, on 18 December 2011 - 01:59 PM, said:

Where I think they should go is the Deep Periphery, farther out even than the Clans and the Jarnfolk. Take the opportunity to completely start over with a new storyline, new characters, and a new, unique baseline tech level.

It's been over a thousand years since human spaceflight got started, there could be an entirely new Inner Sphere sized territory waiting out there. The Kerensky Cluster is 1700 LY from Terra and it was reached in just a few years of Exodus.

If there was a colonial expedition that started during the Star League intending to go deep into the Periphery and find new habitable worlds, it could have traveled 1,560 LY per year given one week stops between jumps. Now that's 400 years before the present timeline. They could be on the other side of the galaxy by 3025. To have a new settlement, say, 10,000 LY from Terra that has expanded into a territory at least the size of one of the larger Successor States is entirely feasible.

This is exactly what I have said all along....
Im with you Caveman.

[Azantia]

And I give you : Explorer Corps

Sarna.Net :

The ComStar Explorer Service or Explorer Corps was formed by Primus Adrienne Sims in 2959 to publically chart and catalog the worlds beyond the Periphery, but covertly to locate lost Star League caches and Kerensky's lost Exodus fleet for ComStar's benefit.
Motivated by visions of previous Primuses referring to the space outside the borders of the Inner Sphere as the only true threat to ComStar, Sims requested funding for the branch based on the mystery of Exodus fleet and the threat to ComStar's position and technological superiority if the fleet ever returned.
Using long range scout JumpShips such as the Magellan and lightly armed DropShips to investigate old Star League naval charts, the Corps travel in every direction to re-establish contact with lost and forgotten worlds and locate old SLDF era caches. Most of the contacts on inhabited worlds was diplomatic and cool, while some were outright hostile, with response to ComStar's mystical ways and technology as mixed as the Inner Sphere without the threat of a Interdiction to cow people into line. If locating a former abandoned SLDF cache or base of value, the Corp either stripped it's resources for return to the Inner Sphere, or restored it to operation. While some of the lesser or stripped finds were reported to the Inner Sphere governments, the Explorer Corps retained many for the use of ComStar operations in the Periphery, some of which were used in the Jolly Roger Affair.
Prophetically, Primus Sims fears of destruction from beyond came true not in spite of but because of the Explorer Corp, when in 3048 the Explorer Corp vessel Outbound Light found the Clan Smoke Jaguar world of Huntress, their arrival giving ammunition to Crusader Clans to launch Operation Revival, the Clan Invasion of the Inner Sphere.
With threat of the Clans, the majority of Explorer Corps resources were directed to locating the Clan Homeworlds, but ComStar's covert agents had more success finally pin-pointing their location. After the Great Refusal, Explorer Corp vessels have returned to the goal of pure exploration and making contact with long-lost Periphery colonies.

This could easily lead a-million-and-one places.

Edited by Azantia, 23 February 2012 - 01:56 AM.

[Seabear]

The real strength of the BT universe has been the power struggles between the various house/factions. The timeline that is now in place has plenty of room for the expansion those struggles. Areas which have been touched on but not developed include the various Marik civil wars, the border warfare between traditional enemies across the various marches, the titanic struggles of the earlier Succession Wars, srtrife among the various refions of each realms, pirartes, the Periphery etc. Rather than focusing on "new" content and the co-responding problems of new tech, it appears to me that the time has come forthe BT universe to begin developing some of the "dark corners" already created that hang tantalizingly before us.

[Kip Wilson]

I don't comment too often on the topics I read but this one has some good questions. I'm an old player and havent really liked anything post 3055. Personally I think the whole jihad thing was a poor tie-in to MWDA/AoD. If it were me, it would have been a no-holds-barred fight between the Clans and the Inner Sphere. And the whole Devlin Stone / Republic of the Sphere thing was just ugh...

Yet, with that being said, I personally like that the Battletech IP hasn't gone through any retconning or rebooting (even if some of its history is dumb). Doing so just means the writers aren't imaginitave enough to think outside the box that they created.

What I see going forth are two things post-AoD (say somewhere around 2170?). The Inner Sphere coallesses into two super states, one capatilist (probably LA, FS, FRR and FWL) and other more of a controlled state (Clans, CC and DC) which reinact a low level cold war style fight. Their weapons are still powerful to the point of mutually assured destruction so they only engage in "limited" warfare.


Idea #2 and one I like better is that the Inner Sphere pretty much settles down, tired of so much war and forms a united nations of sorts. The newfound peace prompts a new era of expansionism into the Periphery which becones a wild west setting, just instead of six-shooters its Battlemechs. Technology would still be there but the frontier is so far away from supplies that simpler becomes better.

That would kind of reign in the spiralling munchkinism of constantly having to come up with new toys. More battlemechs, sure but chill out on the equipment...

With that being said, what the IP holders should focus on IMO are sourcebooks that delve deeper into the lore and start publishing real novels again. I haven't played TT in gosh over a decade but I still buy the sourcebooks because I enjoy reading them.

[Ravana]

The new invading force could be a race of sentient machines sent to wipe out all life to keep them from creating sentient machines! (sarcasm off).

I would tend to think that one of the next larger technological break throughs for Mechwarriors would be better control of their mechs with the neurohelmets a finer control of mechs via just thinking would be a large break through, allowing for reflexive movements. Allowing the pilot to be more at one with their mech. Could you imagine all the houses/clans/power players scrambling for that technology.

[Sychodemus]

Ravana, on 31 March 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

The new invading force could be a race of sentient machines sent to wipe out all life to keep them from creating sentient machines! (sarcasm off).

I would tend to think that one of the next larger technological break throughs for Mechwarriors would be better control of their mechs with the neurohelmets a finer control of mechs via just thinking would be a large break through, allowing for reflexive movements. Allowing the pilot to be more at one with their mech. Could you imagine all the houses/clans/power players scrambling for that technology.

The Jihad and Wars of Reaving both introduced a ton of related technology; drugs, genetic mutations, cybernetic-links, drone technology, etc. The official line is that the people were so horrified by these monsters that they pretty much banned their use post-Jihad. Of course, with secret societies all over the place, it is likely that they will make a comeback sometime later in the storyline.

[Youngblood]

So has anyone seen the Turning Points 3226 PDF for the Third League vs. the Crimson Revolution on Taiw...St. Ives?

http://bg.battletech....html#msg402253

:3c

Best April Fool's joke ever.

[Sychodemus]

Youngblood, on 02 April 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

So has anyone seen the Turning Points 3226 PDF for the Third League vs. the Crimson Revolution on Taiw...St. Ives?

http://bg.battletech....html#msg402253

:3c

Best April Fool's joke ever.

I did not know about this. Thanks for the heads-up, it was quite amusing.

[Arctic Fox]

The UrbanMech LAM must get a record sheet at some point. It must...

[Kell Pryde]

I would like to change this thread's name to "oh god please let Catalyst stop coming up with new ideas."

[Doctor Caleb]

Short answer, hopefully they don't.

A game company makes money from two sources:

1. New players starting out
2. Old players buying more stuff

The problem with CBT is that it can take so long to play even a small game that it can become discourging for new players. I've introduced this game to numerous people over the years and the number one reason people didn't stick with it was they thought the game took too long. It would be in Catalysts best interest to streamline the rules to make play faster, without sacrificing strategy. This alone would go a long way to making the game friendlier to newer players.

As for getting old players to buy more stuff, there's only one way to do that, new mechs (and vehicles). Otherwise you end up digging yourself into a hole like GW did with Necromunda. The reason GW barely supports it is because players would buy the rulebook, buy the minis for one gang, then never buy anything else. The only way they could make more money was from new players comming in, but there wasn't enough demand after the initial release. So Catalyst (for better or worse) has to keep advancing the storyline, and keep releasing new TR's so that players keep buying them (and the record sheets).


Now, as for comparing Catalyst to GW or WotC isn't really fair. GW makes both the game and the mini's. If they want to sell more mini's, the release a new codex with new units and players will buy them. They also have the trick of updating old metal minis with new plastic kits that boots sales. Usually because the plastic kit is either a bit less expensive, has more conversion bits, or both. I know the current rumor has Chaos Marines as the next codex release, and that cult troops (Plague Marines, Noise Marines, etc...) will all be getting all plastic box sets as well. If true, both new and old CM players will be buying those box sets.

As for WotC, they have the luxury of being able to release a new version of MTG every few years that there players will buy every time. Mostly because the competitve scene usually requires your deck to have cards from only the last few releases. And as for D&D, they can always release new monster manuals, new player aids, or entire new game worlds. Actually, Catalyst could try that last one. Imagine a whole new universe, with mechs.

And I do agree about the quality of the mini's. They really need to start sculpting these things on a computer. From there you can get a prototype made on a 3d printer to make the molds from. You could certainly get better looking and more detailed minis than the current hand sculpted ones. Plus, with computer sculpting there would be better control and consistency over the size of the mini. My poor old Stingers and Wasps are just so tiny these days. And as for cost, there are plenty of small shop mini companies that use computer sculpting and get a 3rd party to do the 3d printing for their mold masters, so it's no cost prohibitive.

[tynaiden]

Wow, I had no idea there was still so much going on with CBT. After getting into and enjoying the Clix version (for the simple reason it was faster and easier to play skirmishes) then seeing it die off somehow convinced me there was no future in the wonderful world of Battletech. I still have and enjoy the few remaining classic items I have left like the 4ed. box, charts from Level 3 expansions, and most of the original 'mechsheets.

I did however enjoy most of the variations from CBT (any tech level), CBT miniature rules, BattleForce, and yes even the DA clix. Each for their own obvious reasons for existing: CBT for the deeper, strategic, and gritty combat; BattleForce for the epic sweeping wars that changed the hosted universe; and Clix for the more primal fun of just blowing stuff up without tons of overhead to deal with (terrain aside for those who took that just as seriously as the matches).

The thing that seems to stand out for me is that times are indeed changing and there is nothing wrong with making the best or most favored more enjoyable for more people. I hated D&D 3ed+ because it seemed such a drastic change to what I loved for so long but I have to admit with 3.5ed it really was a general overall improvement without much loss of the classic feeling. I can only surmise that what went wrong with the DA clix (besides awkward, IMO, story) was changing too much.

Maybe after so many years of offshoots through video games and TT systems along with all the strong community input, the next generation of CBT will be able to do things better while avoiding the previous pitfalls.

I also agree there is still tons of areas to explore with existing history such as mentioned throughout this topic. Even the second or alternate universe idea would be a fair launching point for another 'version' of rules such as the difference between original CBT and BattleForce or even simpler / faster Clix.

One thing we did for a very short time was use the hex terrain from another game called Heroscape. It was very modular and fit the size of the figures we had amassed from the Clix line. Something like that maybe coupled with the smart mini ideas presented here (already realized in one form as the Skylanders game-line). It could give a balance of complexity many people love about CBT yet speed it up to a generally more enjoyable pace, if not at least so those without copious amounts of free time can still enjoy it.

Lastly; I regret skipping over the novels for so long. For some reason they didn't appeal to me as much when we used to run near sphere-wide campaigns. I did read a handful during my time in the military since I could not play with my ol' gaming buddies but stopped reading them once I was back home and able to enjoy firsthand the great the thrill of 'mech combat. Is there potential in revitalizing the novels again?

[Kylarus]