85 replies to this topic

[AdamBaines]

God of War, on 15 December 2011 - 02:09 PM, said:

Every story has to have an end. it´s not good to try to keep something runnin longer than it should be. If you try to keep something forcefull alive you just make erverthing worse.

In my eyes Battletech´s Storyline died the day Jamie Wolf died. This brainfu..ed Jihaad idea makes the storyline writers deserve the
beating of their lifes!

and IMHO Cataxlysm was allready out of ideas the day the took over the franchise...

The day Jamie Wolf Died I rejoiced I was happy. Way over due. He should have died before Grayson Carlyle.

[GreyGriffin]

Paladin1, on 16 December 2011 - 06:27 AM, said:

The only thing that they haven't done directly is your idea of a TRO/Disk package and that's because they offer a TRO/PDF package while Rick Raisley is still working on Heavy Metal Pro 6.

They seriously need to get this software out. Sorry Rick, I loved Heavy Metal and all, but an update is way, way overdue, BV2 or not. They need to look at other avenues for their official mech building software. SSW is free, and does everything Heavy Metal Mech does and more. They just need Vee's, Protos, and BA, and their product would completely annihilate Heavy Metal. Adopt these guys.

[CaveMan]

Where I think they should go is the Deep Periphery, farther out even than the Clans and the Jarnfolk. Take the opportunity to completely start over with a new storyline, new characters, and a new, unique baseline tech level.

It's been over a thousand years since human spaceflight got started, there could be an entirely new Inner Sphere sized territory waiting out there. The Kerensky Cluster is 1700 LY from Terra and it was reached in just a few years of Exodus.

If there was a colonial expedition that started during the Star League intending to go deep into the Periphery and find new habitable worlds, it could have traveled 1,560 LY per year given one week stops between jumps. Now that's 400 years before the present timeline. They could be on the other side of the galaxy by 3025. To have a new settlement, say, 10,000 LY from Terra that has expanded into a territory at least the size of one of the larger Successor States is entirely feasible.

[Xhaleon]

CaveMan, on 18 December 2011 - 01:59 PM, said:

Where I think they should go is the Deep Periphery, farther out even than the Clans and the Jarnfolk. Take the opportunity to completely start over with a new storyline, new characters, and a new, unique baseline tech level.

That would be nice, but people would still want to continue the current timeline in the Inner Sphere. So Catalyst would likely end up advancing both universes simultaneously.

Then again, that doesn't sound so bad. They aren't on any kind of development deadline leash, so if they did run two different sections of the galaxy at once, it could lead to an interesting diverge of gameplay. Keep the same rules, but make the alternative people take greatly different paths in technology, so that you can actually run games against each other but with <weird> rather than <more-advanced> differences that you'd get from simply advancing the IP.

[CaveMan]

Xhaleon, on 19 December 2011 - 01:54 AM, said:

Then again, that doesn't sound so bad. They aren't on any kind of development deadline leash, so if they did run two different sections of the galaxy at once, it could lead to an interesting diverge of gameplay. Keep the same rules, but make the alternative people take greatly different paths in technology, so that you can actually run games against each other but with <weird> rather than <more-advanced> differences that you'd get from simply advancing the IP.

That's sort of how I envision it. The new colony people start out in that same, post-Age of War, just-got-'Mechs place, but they've had 4-500 years to evolve in a whole different direction.

What if, for them, weapons are really light, but armor is heavy? So your light 'Mechs end up being fast-moving glass cannons filling the support role, while assault 'Mechs are walking fortresses that seem undergunned compared to the lower weight classes because heat is such a limiting factor. Medium 'Mechs would end up being the scouts because they'd be in the right place to be both fast and well armored. And the actual weapons could make things even more topsy-turvy compared to what things are like in the Inner Sphere.

[Renegade]

Xhaleon, on 19 December 2011 - 01:54 AM, said:

Then again, that doesn't sound so bad. They aren't on any kind of development deadline leash, so if they did run two different sections of the galaxy at once, it could lead to an interesting diverge of gameplay. Keep the same rules, but make the alternative people take greatly different paths in technology, so that you can actually run games against each other but with <weird> rather than <more-advanced> differences that you'd get from simply advancing the IP.

Fluff-development aside, this would actually be really interesting. I'm running some hypothetical experimental tech vs. clanner fights right now, and the resulting tactics are rather unique.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Quote

Where I think they should go is the Deep Periphery, farther out even than the Clans and the Jarnfolk. Take the opportunity to completely start over with a new storyline, new characters, and a new, unique baseline tech level.

With Clan Wolverine in Exile vs. Aliens?

[Xhaleon]

CaveMan, on 19 December 2011 - 02:24 AM, said:

What if, for them, weapons are really light, but armor is heavy?

I think that the Clans have partially gotten the role of being the glass cannons, without the glass part.

I think it would be more unique to have mechs from beyond the Periphery (again) attacking the galactic south, so now it's Feddies, Cappies and what's-left-of-FWL against strange super-zombie mechs using cunning under-handed strategies, that seem utterly indestructible and often capable of jumping really far, but need to get in very close to do serious damage. Not the perfect foil to the Clans, but it seems opposite enough. I know that the Succession Wars could be pretty close-in affairs, but these could be whole armies of melee-centric mechs with strong ECM and other countermeasures to ranged weapons. Not like Wobbies in that they don't nuke people left and right, but they use every conventional trick in the book turned up to eleven, and then some.

Of course, yours has a very direct effect on mech roles too, so that's also good.
Upon review, mine actually sounds a little bit too much Japan-style plot-babble-excuse to focus on melee combat.

[CaveMan]

Alizabeth Aijou, on 19 December 2011 - 12:41 PM, said:

With Clan Wolverine in Exile vs. Aliens?

Thought about aliens, but no. They just don't fit. The Tetatae (or however you spell it) should be the only aliens in BT, and never touched on again after Far Country.

Xhaleon, on 19 December 2011 - 01:07 PM, said:

I think that the Clans have partially gotten the role of being the glass cannons, without the glass part.

I think it would be more unique to have mechs from beyond the Periphery (again) attacking the galactic south, so now it's Feddies, Cappies and what's-left-of-FWL against strange super-zombie mechs using cunning under-handed strategies, that seem utterly indestructible and often capable of jumping really far, but need to get in very close to do serious damage. Not the perfect foil to the Clans, but it seems opposite enough. I know that the Succession Wars could be pretty close-in affairs, but these could be whole armies of melee-centric mechs with strong ECM and other countermeasures to ranged weapons. Not like Wobbies in that they don't nuke people left and right, but they use every conventional trick in the book turned up to eleven, and then some.

Of course, yours has a very direct effect on mech roles too, so that's also good.
Upon review, mine actually sounds a little bit too much Japan-style plot-babble-excuse to focus on melee combat.

I was actually thinking it'd be the other way around. Move the timeline a couple hundred years into the future (3500 or so). The Inner Sphere/Clans (envisioning that they'd eventually merge) are the invaders now because (invent reason). BattleTech's story has always been a mirror of Old Europe during the middle ages.
Well, now have Europe discover America.

[John Clavell]

In many ways the Jihad is the rebirth of Battletech. The storyline had become obese on insanely over powered factions and political players. The clans had lost their teeth, and in honestly units like Wolf's Dragoons had become so powerful there was little room to continue their story. Was Jamie Wolf gonna die behind his desk eating donuts? The writers had built them up for so long, that the only way to get rid of them is with nukes from orbit, and blowing them up before they can land on planet.

I'm a serious fan of the Dragoons. When I first read about their demise to the Jihad I was seriously not happy. But let's face it, the jihad wiped the bored clean in some ways, allowing for the game to explore ideas like the good old 3025 era. The problem was the marketing and business decision to move into pre-painted minis and crazy toy like rubbish to widen the Battletech fan base that ultimately failed. The other big thing was that for many people, who have close affiliation to many of the factions and units destroyed by the Jihad where left feeling unhappy.

Anyway, to all the Dragoon fans, don't worry, they suffered worse in the 4th Succession War, and Jamie Wolf (the women version) is still alive and kicking

[Xhaleon]

CaveMan, on 19 December 2011 - 01:17 PM, said:

I was actually thinking it'd be the other way around. Move the timeline a couple hundred years into the future (3500 or so). The Inner Sphere/Clans (envisioning that they'd eventually merge) are the invaders now because (invent reason). BattleTech's story has always been a mirror of Old Europe during the middle ages.
Well, now have Europe discover America.

Eh, maybe. Since we're discussing having an entirely separate region of space being developed first, then being invaded by the Inner Sphere...

Then again, that means that if you play as the Alternative People (need a name guys), you'll be facing invaders again. If Catalyst tells the story as the Inner Sphere, facing these long-lost wayward brothers on an expeditionary trip, we lose the opportunity to see it from the eyes of an Alternative Person. But of course we can see it from both, but who first?

Maybe I'm thinking too much...

[CaveMan]

John Clavell, on 19 December 2011 - 01:27 PM, said:

In many ways the Jihad is the rebirth of Battletech. The storyline had become obese on insanely over powered factions and political players.

Agreed, things had progressed to a point where they could no longer continue and provide a compelling story.

The problem was, instead of exploring the options of all the other fascinating places in the BT universe that were available to go (into the past, into the far future, into deep space), they chose to literally blow up all the institutions that they'd spent two decades getting fans to fall in love with, and try to start over from the ashes. And frankly they were pretty clumsy about it. All it did was make a lot of us mad. Going clicky and collectible didn't help either. It felt like a naked marketing ploy.

[CaveMan]

Xhaleon, on 19 December 2011 - 01:44 PM, said:

Eh, maybe. Since we're discussing having an entirely separate region of space being developed first, then being invaded by the Inner Sphere...

Then again, that means that if you play as the Alternative People (need a name guys), you'll be facing invaders again. If Catalyst tells the story as the Inner Sphere, facing these long-lost wayward brothers on an expeditionary trip, we lose the opportunity to see it from the eyes of an Alternative Person. But of course we can see it from both, but who first?

Maybe I'm thinking too much...

Of course, it could be done initially not as an invasion, but as subterfuge. The IS initially sees the alternative people as sitting on a valuable resource (LosTech? a new raw material not found in the IS?), and the various IS powers start trying to influence the alternative powers, which leads to proxy wars, and finally ramps up to an all-out invasion.

[John Clavell]

CaveMan, on 19 December 2011 - 01:50 PM, said:

Agreed, things had progressed to a point where they could no longer continue and provide a compelling story.

The problem was, instead of exploring the options of all the other fascinating places in the BT universe that were available to go (into the past, into the far future, into deep space), they chose to literally blow up all the institutions that they'd spent two decades getting fans to fall in love with, and try to start over from the ashes. And frankly they were pretty clumsy about it. All it did was make a lot of us mad. Going clicky and collectible didn't help either. It felt like a naked marketing ploy.

Yeah I totally agree with you Caveman. The Jihad could of been amazing, but Wizkids dropped the ball, and now all CGL can do is pick up the pieces.

[Xhaleon]

John Clavell, on 20 December 2011 - 12:03 AM, said:

Yeah I totally agree with you Caveman. The Jihad could of been amazing, but Wizkids dropped the ball, and now all CGL can do is pick up the pieces.

They -could- drop their policy regarding no-retcons. Would make this a much smoother ride, even if a whole bunch of novels have already set some things in stone.

[Atlas3060]

Dlardrageth, on 15 December 2011 - 11:10 PM, said:

I personally wouldn't mind them doing a revamp of CBT, something like BT 2.0. There's enough to be reworked and modernized. It worked for other game systems, why not for BT?

Though not a complete revamp will ever happen, there's quite the momentum for Quick Strike rules.
I've played a few games with it and a lance on lance battle is barely half an hour when you don't include setting up the board.
Randall even is showing interest in this, he's posting a few Battleblogs dedicated to playing against his kid. Since he's the one that brought this vision of scalability I'm hoping they expand it into a new avenue into playing Battletech. This way the guys who like detailed fights still have the traditional ways *raises hand* and those who want a more abstract game can enjoy blowing up stuff! *once again raises hand*

Quote

Would be a chance to grandfather out "the Unseen" and thus show Harmony Gold the finger once and for all as well.

I honestly think that won't ever truly happen, but rather compromises will occur. They've tried to limit retcons as much possible plus even though there's quite the baggage with Unseens there's also quite a bit of nostalgia with them. Proof of this was with the Reseens, putting that much time and effort into explaining just how they look differently meant some folks really wanted to have an Archer mini on the table at the big events once again.

Now if they get flyingdebris to work on some sort of PreSeen, that would be nice. They could just say "oh those Harmony Gold versions? Yeah (insert company here) got a sweet deal with the SLDF and they churned them out, but here's another company that did the (Mech name) and here's how they looked." Not exactly a retcon but more akin to the Reseens, in fact with some of the Primitive Experimental TROs you can see how they have a Primitive Shadow Hawk look sort of like the old one but just enough to say it isn't Harmony Gold. The HG version still exists but you could use this look too.

Quote

Then update the plain paper maps of old to something more useful, perhaps laminated map sheets? Reprints of House books and follow-up material won't hurt either to streamline it more and iron out some quirks. And finally the new TROs/Mech sheets should come with a disk containing an official program for printouts.

Hexmap packs using cardboard thick quality maps with hexes of terrain you can alter the map with are being sold now.
House books just didn't sell enough so that's why Kurita will be the last and final one out the door. A pity since they brought it all the way up to 3067sh and just let the players decide if they want to continue onwards or not.

As for TROs, Herb said in some recent Battlechats that we've been soaking in TROs so much that this year they're looking towards no TROs this year but rather focusing sourcebooks on the Star League times. That way they can look towards the 3100's and the Post Dark Age era *(waits for the screaming that Dark Age sucks to calm down before continuing)*

As for disks, though that would be cool, it has been more cost effective for them to do record sheets as pdf releases. The Unabridged versions are flipping awesome because they cram as many variants as they can into each era. It is unreal how many different designs they actually have in this game!

Quote

And clearly be properly sorted by era, especially concerning random variants. A sharp look at AeroTech and better integration of it won't hurt either.

There's quite a bit that could be done, IMHO.

Sorting by era, that's where the MUL is shining like a star.
http://www.masterunitlist.info/
The ability to search for a variant and find out who had it at a specific era, now with Battleforce stats added, and it is updated online?! Oh yeah that's the stuff.
And they're trying to fit every Era in but at the moment we're stuck with two.

As for the Aero stuff, yeah that was... well clunky is the only nice word I can think of.

Edited by Atlas3060, 20 December 2011 - 03:25 AM.

[metro]

OP...even though I see your point, I think its moot.

For Example:

Chevy, Ford, BMW, Mercedes, Peugeot, Zenith, Panasonic, Hersheys chocolate, Oscar Meyer, Nestles, Heinz, Bombardier, Boeing, .......are just a small list of Companies who survived World Wars, minor skirmishes, Buyouts, Holdouts, and takeovers......

Yet they survive.....

Change, broad fields, give and go....is a must in order to survive. Change with the times, or die. This is no different from BT.

As long as their are humans...a story can be written.

Edited by Metro, 20 December 2011 - 03:44 AM.

[Drogo-MA]

Good thread. Now I will weigh in on this topic. I honestly believe if Catalyst (and the fans) want to grow the game and also keep it fresh they have to reorganize what they want and then stick to it. Here is what I mean.

1. Catalyst needs to look at successful large gaming companies such as WotC and GW and build something similar to their model of marketing, rules and storyline. Once they find one, stick to it and be on time with release dates. For the love of god Catalyst, start acting like a real company and demand from your suppliers to be on time. If not, find another company and cancel the previous. If you want to grow as a company you need a big bottom dollar to grow upon. If you don't have it, your vision crumbles. (I say this from 10 years marketing, sales, promotion and work within the media industry)

2. If you want to stay fresh change up how things look, however once again stick with it. An example would be to really start making a mark with tournament play across the popular region. I mean, WotC did it with Dungeons and Dragons as well as MTG as well as GW with many forms of Warhammer.

3. Finally in this brief topic, look at getting those models out and make them cheaper and more viable to the public. Ironwind metals is a good start, but all those charges to ship is crap. I mean why is it cheaper for me to order from a local distributor but not directly from Ironwind. I put together one order and I cancelled online when I saw over 25 dollars in charges!!!!! If I order from my local retailer that is 2 mechs with the tax.

Other note worthly ideas, if Catalyst wants to grow or keep it fresh, make the tournament play be a certain age. (similar to what Magic does, the latest era with assistance from nearby collecitons. Example would be FedCom civil war era but use AFFS, CCAF and FWLM only) this way it broadens the mechs being used and also gets people more involved with the storyline)

From a collector's standpoint, why not revise the TRO set up. Instead of landscape format, use letterhead format with one side being the MEch story and on the other the most popular mech record sheet (this way people have a record sheet to copy but it doesn't alienate the Record sheet printout)

But I have to repeat myself on this point, this all comes down to Catalyst sticking with deadlines. I have been waiting to get a hold of a box set of Leviathans and right now I am ready to forget it altogether and go back to Warhammer 40K. Also, the 25th Anniversary box set for Battletech was 3 years late. Catalyst lost a lot of people on that and then when it was released they couldn't keep up with demand. i know of 3 people in my area I got hooked on the game but didn't follow through because they couldnt by the box set.

But this is just an old man talking. And as Dennis Miller always said "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong"

Happy holidays goons.

[RoundTop]

drogon reuak, on 20 December 2011 - 05:05 AM, said:

1. Catalyst needs to look at successful large gaming companies such as WotC and GW and build something similar to their model of marketing, rules and storyline. Once they find one, stick to it and be on time with release dates. For the love of god Catalyst, start acting like a real company and demand from your suppliers to be on time. If not, find another company and cancel the previous. If you want to grow as a company you need a big bottom dollar to grow upon. If you don't have it, your vision crumbles. (I say this from 10 years marketing, sales, promotion and work within the media industry)

2. If you want to stay fresh change up how things look, however once again stick with it. An example would be to really start making a mark with tournament play across the popular region. I mean, WotC did it with Dungeons and Dragons as well as MTG as well as GW with many forms of Warhammer.

Uhm. No. 1 million times no. You have no idea about how this business is run, do you?

Addressing #1: GW is a miniatures company that sells a game around them. All their profits come from the miniatures. CGL does not do minis, thus it is not a valid remark. Before you start saying they should, the startup costs alone of making minis are crazy (Multiple millions), and the game system would have to be based around forcing you to buy minis (see GW's WYSIWYG, no proxies, changing product lines, and codexes)

WotC started at a CCG company. Collectable Card Games, and made money on MtG. This enabled them to buy AD&D, etc. Again not the same style business model as it is based around collectables. They also purchase branding to sell their products (eg: SW, LotR, etc). Again not a good comparison.

#2) The problem with this statement is how do you implement it? GW launched their own retail chain, then when they got big enough, demanded that retailers who wanted to purchase from them at X MUST run events. Add to this the decrease in FLGS (Friendly Local Game Stores) that have room to play games. Then find people to run them. Yes they do exist, but arranging it all is difficult. The typical game store crowd is in their teens, where most Btech TT gamers are in their 20s and 30s, where they can't hang at a game store all day.

Yes CGL has made some mistakes a couple years back that delayed things, such as financial issues (common in small businesses). However that is past them now. Battletech is making a resurgence, and CGL is coming out with Leviathans. The delays in that product stem mainly from trying to get the quality of the product out of China than anything else. See Randall's blog on this over at monstersinthesky.com if you want your eyes opened to the realities of being small and getting products with good quality from overseas.

[CaveMan]

Wizards of the Coast is the worst imaginable model to copy. $40 hardback books, which you need 3 of just to play the game? No thanks.

One core book, softback, black and white print, sell it at a $25-30 price point, and maybe have a "limited edition" for those that want full-color hardback.

Or better yet, move away from paper manuals entirely and push everything as e-books at a low price. Easier to update the rules, easier to distribute, no printing costs, and people pirate the paper ones anyway, so you're not losing anything there.

I love the idea that was suggested upthread for "smart minis" with RFID embedded in the base, or better yet, detachable bases that have small flash chips in them that can be uploaded with stats and so on, and have the game do all the number-crunching electronically. That'd be the golden goose: you have the speed and ease of MegaMek with the full tabletop experience.