85 replies to this topic

[Xhaleon]

My post in the other thread has got me thinking: They've been running and updating tabletop Battletech for decades now. Recently, we've gotten all the fancy new toys from Jihad era, both from the Wobblies and the homeworld Clans.

Catalyst makes money from selling box-sets, rulebooks and novels, but the real dough is through selling technical readouts and fancy experimental equipment tacked onto storyline-advancing books. Their established fanbase is always more profit than the slow trickle of new players.

The problem is that there can only be so many new weapons and mechs that can be introduced before innovation just isn't possible anymore. Much equipment produced over the years have either critical flaws that make them unfavorable compared to 400-year-old equipment (eg.VSPL, Ext.LRM, lolspherescientists), or they are simply too good that they may upset balance and thus will never enter tourney-level play (eg.CEWS, iATM, lolclanscientists). Sure, Battle Value keeps powerful weapons in check, but going over 14 damage just adds more and more headcappers (with strawberry flavor!), and there are enough useful (useless) low-damage weapons as it is.

It would be silly if after the Dark Age passes, Houses and Clans were producing new production mechs that were inferior to what we already have, simply because there isn't anywhere for designs to go except downward. Sure, they can always add more and more equipment through techbooks, and implement them on mechs through TROs and sheets, but sooner or later that convoluted tower is going to topple.

I'm just wondering what will happen when we reach that point. If they don't make a sequel rulebook for playing the future eras of Battletech, then they're going to be stuck constantly growing the current monster by "exploring" past eras to death, or by getting a small influx of new players every year. If they do make a new rulebook, at least I highly suspect it would still be rules-compatible with the older version, just with different performances and construction rules for the new machines and infantry. Obviously, BV would still prevent steamrolling, but eh, how high is that number going to go? 3000 BV mediums, anyone?

[Hayden]

Xhaleon, on 15 December 2011 - 12:54 PM, said:

My post in the other thread has got me thinking: They've been running and updating tabletop Battletech for decades now. Recently, we've gotten all the fancy new toys from Jihad era, both from the Wobblies and the homeworld Clans.

Catalyst makes money from selling box-sets, rulebooks and novels, but the real dough is through selling technical readouts and fancy experimental equipment tacked onto storyline-advancing books. Their established fanbase is always more profit than the slow trickle of new players.

The problem is that there can only be so many new weapons and mechs that can be introduced before innovation just isn't possible anymore. Much equipment produced over the years have either critical flaws that make them unfavorable compared to 400-year-old equipment (eg.VSPL, Ext.LRM, lolspherescientists), or they are simply too good that they may upset balance and thus will never enter tourney-level play (eg.CEWS, iATM, lolclanscientists). Sure, Battle Value keeps powerful weapons in check, but going over 14 damage just adds more and more headcappers (with strawberry flavor!), and there are enough useful (useless) low-damage weapons as it is.

It would be silly if after the Dark Age passes, Houses and Clans were producing new production mechs that were inferior to what we already have, simply because there isn't anywhere for designs to go except downward. Sure, they can always add more and more equipment through techbooks, and implement them on mechs through TROs and sheets, but sooner or later that convoluted tower is going to topple.

I'm just wondering what will happen when we reach that point. If they don't make a sequel rulebook for playing the future eras of Battletech, then they're going to be stuck constantly growing the current monster by "exploring" past eras to death, or by getting a small influx of new players every year. If they do make a new rulebook, at least I highly suspect it would still be rules-compatible with the older version, just with different performances and construction rules for the new machines and infantry. Obviously, BV would still prevent steamrolling, but eh, how high is that number going to go? 3000 BV mediums, anyone?

Frankly, the smart thing would be for them to take a giant leap backward (make the Dark Age live up to it's name). Some kind of collapse of society and the succession wars all over again? If not that, there are other things they can tap. Minnesota tribe? The Deep Periphery? Aliens (ACK, NO, NO!)? Space is big, and there is a lot of stuff beyond. If anything, their real weakness is how rapidly they've moved the timeline in the decades that Battletech has been around. In just under three decades they've covered about 90 years of very rapidly changing history. I don't want to tell them to slow it down, but I don't think it would hurt. And I really enjoy the "historicals", they're interesting, and a good way to explore different periods of IS history.

We also don't know much about the emerging Clan/IS hybrid states like the Ghost Bear/Rasalhague Dominion and the Raven Alliance (Ugh, not a fan of that one, but I think we're stuck with it). So I think they have a lot to work with.

EDIT: It may also come to pass that we see combat at longer ranges as a means to combat the extreme damage we're seeing emerge at conventional ranges. Maybe they change the scale of the maps, so the current weapons effectively have half or a quarter of their effective ranges?)

Edited by Hayden, 15 December 2011 - 01:07 PM.

[AdamBaines]

I think its an intresting question and I would say this: When you play Battletech table top your not playing the universe, but your playing the universe in a certain time frame. Meaning it will always be fun to do combat or role play based on certain tech levels, limitations and advantages. Also, for me and many people, its about the story lines that accompany the game that really make it interesting and differentiate it from other table top games, especially mech games. Honestly I could care less about new weapons systems and etc. Id prefer to play 3025 era Battetech over any other as it really gives grittiness to the game. Also, exploring past eras to death is not a bad thing for me. That is one reason I like Battlecorps.com is the scenarios they provide across different eras. And there is always role-playing Table top is not just shoot'um up. What is cool about Battle tech is that there are so many different ways to play it. I wish they would do another, more in-depth version of the Succession Wars board game from the 80-90s :-)

It will be interesting to see where they go post Dark Age. Maybe go into an Age of Expantion? A second exodus of a sort where people begin to colonize out further? New factions, new tentions more to fight over, etc. That would create allot for the universe I would think.

Great question Xhaleon.

[Hayden]

AdamBaines, on 15 December 2011 - 01:08 PM, said:

I think its an intresting question and I would say this: When you play Battletech table top your not playing the universe, but your playing the universe in a certain time frame. Meaning it will always be fun to do combat or role play based on certain tech levels, limitations and advantages. Also, for me and many people, its about the story lines that accompany the game that really make it interesting and differentiate it from other table top games, especially mech games. Honestly I could care less about new weapons systems and etc. Id prefer to play 3025 era Battetech over any other as it really gives grittiness to the game. Also, exploring past eras to death is not a bad thing for me. That is one reason I like Battlecorps.com is the scenarios they provide across different eras. And there is always role-playing Table top is not just shoot'um up. What is cool about Battle tech is that there are so many different ways to play it. I wish they would do another, more in-depth version of the Succession Wars board game from the 80-90s :-)

It will be interesting to see where they go post Dark Age. Maybe go into an Age of Expantion? A second exodus of a sort where people begin to colonize out further? New factions, new tentions more to fight over, etc. That would create allot for the universe I would think.

Great question Xhaleon.

SUCCESSION WARS! YESSSSSSSS!!! That would be so awesome... I played it the other day against myself and man... it was amazing... but yeah... also showing it's age a bit. Really, all sound notions on your part. I have to agree, that my favorite part is less new technology (if anything, that kinda turns me off from the game) but the kind of titanic power struggles, dynamic relations, etc. I pretty much live in the 3020s

[AdamBaines]

Hayden, on 15 December 2011 - 01:13 PM, said:

SUCCESSION WARS! YESSSSSSSS!!! That would be so awesome... I played it the other day against myself and man... it was amazing... but yeah... also showing it's age a bit. Really, all sound notions on your part. I have to agree, that my favorite part is less new technology (if anything, that kinda turns me off from the game) but the kind of titanic power struggles, dynamic relations, etc. I pretty much live in the 3020s

I heard somewhere someone did a version using Vassel, but have not seen it. I find Vassel kinda cumbersome so I never really use it. It would be cool if there was a Turn Based Online version of Succession Wars.

[Hayden]

AdamBaines, on 15 December 2011 - 01:24 PM, said:

I heard somewhere someone did a version using Vassel, but have not seen it. I find Vassel kinda cumbersome so I never really use it. It would be cool if there was a Turn Based Online version of Succession Wars.

There was one quite a few years ago, basically play by-email. I died a horrible death. They also had a prototype worked out for one designed to take place just before and during the clan invasion. I don't know what ever happened to that stuff. If there was ever to be another Succession Wars game I would totally give it a go.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Maybe they'll go in an do a reboot with a more modern fast play system and retcon many of the issues that should have been fixed?

[Brenden]

I think this is the question that everyone hates to be asked when they have a sucssesful series for so long: New ideas. Sooner or later, you might just want to stop and enjoy the present rather then create new things for the future.

[God of War]

Every story has to have an end. it´s not good to try to keep something runnin longer than it should be. If you try to keep something forcefull alive you just make erverthing worse.

In my eyes Battletech´s Storyline died the day Jamie Wolf died. This brainfu..ed Jihaad idea makes the storyline writers deserve the
beating of their lifes!

and IMHO Cataxlysm was allready out of ideas the day the took over the franchise...

[Xhaleon]

TheRulesLawyer, on 15 December 2011 - 01:51 PM, said:

Maybe they'll go in an do a reboot with a more modern fast play system and retcon many of the issues that should have been fixed?

Well, that's what I said I didn't want to happen. I'm unfamiliar with Dark Age and Age of Destruction, but it sounded like a simplified version for mass consumption. Am I wrong?

If you made a Battletech 2.0, you could conceivably make it compatible with BT 1.0 because the only things that interact between mechs are just numbers from each weapon. Even if the rules for moving or shooting were changed, all that mattered is whether the damage values are consistent with the old game. A new-age mech could have different calculations for its speed and jump jets, its armor is half again as tough as an old-age mech and more powerful weapons that generally suffer less accuracy drop at range, but they could both play on the same map without issues because the core rules of terrain, LOS, shooting and such are still the same.

Really, at the very least, make Clan tech the "standard" after exiting the Dark Age. That is, all universal equipment is now Clan-grade, and anything that the Inner Sphere gets is upgraded to that level. Clanners just get more focused separate weapons to distinguish them. After the re-opening of Terra's SL-grade facilities and Clan Space Jews giving stuff to everyone, you'd expect some progress 60+ years on, 5th (6th?) Succession War or not.

[Ghost]

I'm actually waiting to see a new focus on combined arms. Right now the game is about range bands and maneuvering. With the abolition of BV2.0, I want to see a lot more of the gimmicks that very few people even touched due to complexity come out to play. And more on top of that. Specifically I want to see faster and easier uses of artillery and aerospace assets and an emphasis on electronic warfare that will reflect what's going on here in MWO. The squeaky wheel is definitely complexity though. If I were really serious about making the mini game more sophisticated I would probably turn to some form of automation, whether in the form of an official app for your phones/tablets or RFID tags for your minis and some stuff for an official "gamekeeper" computer.

[Hayden]

God of War, on 15 December 2011 - 02:09 PM, said:

Every story has to have an end. it´s not good to try to keep something runnin longer than it should be. If you try to keep something forcefull alive you just make erverthing worse.

In my eyes Battletech´s Storyline died the day Jamie Wolf died. This brainfu..ed Jihaad idea makes the storyline writers deserve the
beating of their lifes!

and IMHO Cataxlysm was allready out of ideas the day the took over the franchise...

Don't even get me started on Jihad. The name alone...

[FACEman Peck]

All I have to say about the idea of Catalyst running out of ideas is them saying, "oh crap, it's time to go check the MWO game idea forums..."

Edited by FACEman Peck, 15 December 2011 - 02:55 PM.

[Oppi]

If there's something BT really needs, it's proper state of the art miniatures. Looking at what some companies (Privateer Press or Spartan Games for example) are doing with computers and all those fancy new tools they use in miniature design these days, all the Mechs I know really do look crappy. To generate new players, you sure need good rules, but you also need cool miniatures, that people who aren't already full fledged BT enthusiasts actually want to buy and paint up.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Ghost, on 15 December 2011 - 02:28 PM, said:

I'm actually waiting to see a new focus on combined arms. Right now the game is about range bands and maneuvering. With the abolition of BV2.0, I want to see a lot more of the gimmicks that very few people even touched due to complexity come out to play. And more on top of that. Specifically I want to see faster and easier uses of artillery and aerospace assets and an emphasis on electronic warfare that will reflect what's going on here in MWO. The squeaky wheel is definitely complexity though. If I were really serious about making the mini game more sophisticated I would probably turn to some form of automation, whether in the form of an official app for your phones/tablets or RFID tags for your minis and some stuff for an official "gamekeeper" computer.

That sounds like a lot of fun. Maybe a system to run a combined arms company vs company force in the space of 2-3hrs?

[sadamle]

"What happens when Catalyst runs out of ideas for new things?"


They hire new writing talent with fresh ideas. The power of creative people.

[VEDRFOLNIR]

Personally I think that Catalyst going back and doing the Historical series was a brilliant move - there is a wealth of lore to be mined that just 'sat there' for 20 years, gathering dust. Heck, they could spend a lot of time revisiting and expanding the different Ages of the BattleTech timeline before 3025. They could easily invest the same level of effort in, say, the Age of War or the Reunification War that they put into Jihad or the Dark Ages/Age of Destruction. (ugh).

Expanding on my thought here - the Age of War encompassed a lot of climactic events from each House. The Historical: Age of War series could introduce books/campaigns on each of the five Houses (not to mention the Periphery realms). Would people buy them? Oh, I don't doubt that at all.

Personally, I don't agree with the direction the timeline went post-Jihad. 'Republic of the Sphere'? Really? That's my opinion, of course, but since it's now part of the established timeline, there's not much I can do - other than just not buy the books. Focusing/expanding on the Age of War, or the Reunification War? Oh definitely.

[Dlardrageth]

I personally wouldn't mind them doing a revamp of CBT, something like BT 2.0. There's enough to be reworked and modernized. It worked for other game systems, why not for BT? Would be a chance to grandfather out "the Unseen" and thus show Harmony Gold the finger once and for all as well. Then update the plain paper maps of old to something more useful, perhaps laminated map sheets? Reprints of House books and follow-up material won't hurt either to streamline it more and iron out some quirks. And finally the new TROs/Mech sheets should come with a disk containing an official program for printouts. And clearly be properly sorted by era, especially concerning random variants. A sharp look at AeroTech and better integration of it won't hurt either.

There's quite a bit that could be done, IMHO.

[Paladin1]

Dlardrageth, on 15 December 2011 - 11:10 PM, said:

I personally wouldn't mind them doing a revamp of CBT, something like BT 2.0. There's enough to be reworked and modernized. It worked for other game systems, why not for BT? Would be a chance to grandfather out "the Unseen" and thus show Harmony Gold the finger once and for all as well. Then update the plain paper maps of old to something more useful, perhaps laminated map sheets? Reprints of House books and follow-up material won't hurt either to streamline it more and iron out some quirks. And finally the new TROs/Mech sheets should come with a disk containing an official program for printouts. And clearly be properly sorted by era, especially concerning random variants. A sharp look at AeroTech and better integration of it won't hurt either.

There's quite a bit that could be done, IMHO.

You do realize that all of this, and more, has been touched upon since Total Warfare came out, right?

The only thing that they haven't done directly is your idea of a TRO/Disk package and that's because they offer a TRO/PDF package while Rick Raisley is still working on Heavy Metal Pro 6.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Not going to happen, afaik.
From what I remember, they've got a timeline planned till at least 3200 or some such.