188 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Lemming of the BDA, on 04 April 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

To the OP:

Yes. There is an element of pay to win. They are catering to those who spend money on the game, to continue to make money. Its a buisness. IF skill tree happens why would folks buy a mechpack? Why do you think KDK-3 didnt get fixed and nerfed until it was out for a bit. It was pay to win. The Scorch is close too. And several others. The game, and its buisnss model are changing. We all have to ask ourselves do we still enjoy the game? If so put up with it. If not, quit yer bichin and just uninstall and go.

So, don't complain about poor balance decisions and deal with it?
Well, that's gone over swimmingly for PGI

Void Angel, on 04 April 2017 - 04:56 PM, said:

Using terms like "Grabdeals" shoots your ethos right down the toilet. You might be right, but you're not presenting yourself as someone to be listened to.

I'm not a fan of those Gundam Sales, what can I say?

[Void Angel]

Lemming, the "it's a business" justification for any pay to win "elements" isn't going to fly. You do not have to have pay to win in order to make money, as several small games like League of Legends have proven conclusively. Nor does anyone sane really want a pay to win model for MWO. The introduction of clearly superior Omnipods is concerning - though likely unintentional - and the topic should be addressed. Intelligently.

Mcgral, you can say whatever you want within the forum rules - but if you want to actually convince people instead of poisoning the well against your own arguments, you might try a couple of things called tact and maturity when it comes to communicating your concerns.

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2017 - 04:32 PM, said:

Considering how strong pushes are in certain scenarios, the Gargles and Sexecutioners are also a bit worry some since they could do Splat Timby builds with more tankiness.

Perhaps, perhaps not. The EXE has the JJs but not the sustained speed, the GAR has the sustained speed but not the JJs. The TBR has the sustained speed and the JJs but not the armor (though 80 tonners have barely any more than 75). The two assaults are also are larger or otherwise easier to disarm due to weapon placement emphasized in the arms.

I bet it ends up essentially a wash.

[Mcgral18]

Void Angel, on 04 April 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

Mcgral, you can say whatever you want within the forum rules - but if you want to actually convince people instead of poisoning the well against your own arguments, you might try a couple of things called tact and maturity when it comes to communicating your concerns.

What's wrong with them?
They're colloquial terms which I prefer to use, seeing as we're playing Shooty Stompy Robots

They get the point across, with a touch more impact (in certain cases)
I'm not about to lie about these things.



Arguments are meant to persuade people, not terminology.

[Valhallan]

IMO the only real problem are things like the EBJ pods and maybe the sexecutioner/gargly, "P2W elements" that do not define the meta are not a problem, sure you may get the best variant of the cutefox/fridge etc, but imo it doesn't really matter since they still will not be metamechs. As with any addition, it's all in the implementation.

[Mcgral18]

Valhallan, on 04 April 2017 - 05:15 PM, said:

IMO the only real problem are things like the EBJ pods and maybe the sexecutioner/gargly, "P2W elements" that do not define the meta are not a problem, sure you may get the best variant of the cutefox/fridge etc, but imo it doesn't really matter since they still will not be metamechs. As with any addition, it's all in the implementation.

I'll disagree there

They may not affect the meta, but that robot of mine is now gimped because I'm not gonna give PGI money if they'll gladly support GrabDeals and P2W Premium Robots

I enjoyed the Cute Fox, but I won't pay $$ to make him viable

[El Bandito]

Brizna, on 04 April 2017 - 04:15 PM, said:

Most cash only mechs/pods are subpar. And those that are competitive are so in a natural way. We don't have a P2W problem, at most a P2getfast.

Hellbringer Hero disagrees. It is flat out superior than all other Hellbringers before it. Perfect setup for 2xCLPL+4xCERML, all high mounted. Mind you, my most successful mech, aside from the KDK-3, is the Loyalty Hellbringer, and this new Hero will be even better.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 April 2017 - 05:30 PM.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

My biggest issue is the lack of reinforcement cbill waves that happen. We should have more cbill variants put out for some mechs that are hurting. Prime example would be the Shadow Cat which is not in the best of places. Take the hero for the Shadow Cat as an example. Everything on it is kind of alright, personally I wouldn't mind that right arm for my energy-ballistic build with a UAC10, but most go for LPL or PPC builds, or a smattering of SRM's. So that Right torso is rather nice for anyone doing SRM's, but, that is only for real money.

Another issue of this is that any hero parts are banned in certain competitive circles limiting where the mech will show up. Another issue is these parts are again for real money only and thus for mediocre (in reality or just by opinion) mechs you won't see people investing into them to take a chance on improving said mech, further not increasing diversity of mechs out there. So releasing an omnipod for the shadowcat with 2M for the RT would be great. So would something that gives the chassis a bit more flexibility in what it can take at the detriment in mobility and agility.

While getting every chassis a hero is a good thing and I won't begrudge PGI for doing it, we need to also have cbill omnipods for mechs that are not doing well to help boost them to be more flexible. Summoners are another classic point. Too few hard points to do much so you take big weapons like PPC's or you go missiles and vomit SRM's (which is hilariously effective). Then you see like the Hellbringer get more laser hard points(???) even though it is doing damn well as is.

[Athom83]

Mcgral18, on 04 April 2017 - 05:17 PM, said:

They may not affect the meta, but that robot of mine is now gimped because I'm not gonna give PGI money if they'll gladly support GrabDeals and P2W Premium Robots

I enjoyed the Cute Fox, but I won't pay $$ to make him viable

How exactly is something you own that isn't being changed at all being gimp'd? The only way this is pay to win is if they ultra-quirk them and give mass amounts of free tonnage. As it is, they only add optional options to give options for your optional mechs.

[FupDup]

Athom83, on 04 April 2017 - 05:41 PM, said:

How exactly is something you own that isn't being changed at all being gimp'd? The only way this is pay to win is if they ultra-quirk them and give mass amounts of free tonnage. As it is, they only add optional options to give options for your optional mechs.

If the "additional options" have superior combat performance over C-Bill options, then that satisfies the definition of P2W.

P2W doesn't mean that you auto-win or almost auto-win. It just means that a premium player is more powerful in battle than a freemium player. Even if PGI released "Gold Ammo" that had +7% critical hit chance for MC only, that would be P2W.

[Revis Volek]

Lemming of the BDA, on 04 April 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

To the OP:

Yes. There is an element of pay to win. They are catering to those who spend money on the game, to continue to make money. Its a buisness. IF skill tree happens why would folks buy a mechpack? Why do you think KDK-3 didnt get fixed and nerfed until it was out for a bit. It was pay to win. The Scorch is close too. And several others. The game, and its buisnss model are changing. We all have to ask ourselves do we still enjoy the game? If so put up with it. If not, quit yer bichin and just uninstall and go.

typical lemming comment...


uninstall lemming.

[Mcgral18]

Athom83, on 04 April 2017 - 05:41 PM, said:

How exactly is something you own that isn't being changed at all being gimp'd? The only way this is pay to win is if they ultra-quirk them and give mass amounts of free tonnage. As it is, they only add optional options to give options for your optional mechs.

You mean, make a mech better if you pay $$


I own Cute Foxes, but because they're hot garbage without the Pods, it's Mothballed

[Revis Volek]

Athom83, on 04 April 2017 - 05:41 PM, said:

How exactly is something you own that isn't being changed at all being gimp'd? The only way this is pay to win is if they ultra-quirk them and give mass amounts of free tonnage. As it is, they only add optional options to give options for your optional mechs.

Doesnt understand how p2w works but gets into argument about it.

[Cy Mitchell]

El Bandito, on 04 April 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

Hellbringer Hero disagrees. It is flat out superior than all other Hellbringers before it. Perfect setup for 2xCLPL+4xCERML, all high mounted. Mind you, my most successful mech, aside from the KDK-3, is the Loyalty Hellbringer, and this new Hero will be even better.

Yeah, you can throw on one more cerML but you will have to drop a heatsink to do it. Heat is going to be a problem for that build. I do not that it will be substantially better overall.


On the debate of P2W, none of the Mechs that got help are considered Top Tier Mechs. I can see calling this pay to optimize because you are improving the abilities of the individual chassis. However, it will never be pay to win in my opinion because there are better free (c-bill) alternatives to all these Mechs if winning is truly your only concern, As long as the Kodiak, Night Gyr, TimberWolf, Warhammer, Grasshopper, Hunchback IIc, Arctic Cheetah and Locust can be gotten for free and are still the best in their respective weight classes then I do not have a problem with a new omni-pod propping up a lesser performing chassis.

You do not have to buy any of these heroes to win games in MWO. There are better options to all of them and they are free.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Rampage, on 04 April 2017 - 06:07 PM, said:

Yeah, you can throw on one more cerML but you will have to drop a heatsink to do it. Heat is going to be a problem for that build. I do not that it will be substantially better overall.

Even if that isn't the build, 5 ERML/1 LPL is still better off with those pods than without.

[El Bandito]

Rampage, on 04 April 2017 - 06:07 PM, said:

Yeah, you can throw on one more cerML but you will have to drop a heatsink to do it. Heat is going to be a problem for that build. I do not that it will be substantially better overall.

Current meta is more on trading, less on sustain. Which is why 2xCLPL+4xCERML EBJ is so popular in CW. Hellbringer Hero powercreeps it by putting all the energy points up high and has ECM.

[justcallme A S H]

Agree.

The P2W pods that are coming out of late are becoming more and more valuable, it's not a good thing at all.
My HBR-F torso takes the HBR from a OK mech to a powerhouse given it is not gimped by losing that LT. Look at the SMN as another solid example. And now this new round of heros? Ugh.

That said it doesn't matter in comp play as usually, that stuff is banned (thankfully).

Edited by justcallme A S H, 04 April 2017 - 06:18 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Maybe I can't see the P2W because I'm so ******* disappointed about where they went with the Executioner.

[El Bandito]

Gas Guzzler, on 04 April 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:

Maybe I can't see the P2W because I'm so ******* disappointed about where they went with the Executioner.

Splatcutioner is pretty decent setup with a bunch of Clan smalls. I think it will be effective.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 April 2017 - 06:29 PM.

[Valhallan]

Revis Volek, on 04 April 2017 - 05:48 PM, said:

Doesnt understand how p2w works but gets into argument about it.

, That goes both ways, only meta-class p2w matters for that definition, you may disagree but for competitive purposes that is a fact. Sure a cute-fox with the cash pods is technically p2w (if everyone only uses cute-foxes), but does it make it better than a cheetoh? In practical terms it means nothing since the alternative is still better. As many like to say mechlabbing is half the battle, so unless the pod affects the meta its not really p2w but more in the line of p2lookcool. That being said i do agree somewhat with the thinking behind it, that these things are a slippery slope that may eventually lead to meta-class p2w (like the releasing ebj/hbr pods) so better to just cut it all out, but again this issue is like many things all in the implementation

Mcgral18, on 04 April 2017 - 05:47 PM, said:

I own Cute Foxes, but because they're hot garbage without the Pods, it's Mothballed

meh lets be fair we all knew they were hot garbage (and even with the pods they are still garbagy), we play those kinds of mechs BECAUSE they are hot garbage (urbie ftw).