404 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Acehilator, on 23 April 2017 - 07:10 AM, said:

I did no such thing.

And just because you can't make LRMs work in solo QP (if you even tried, I guess not) does not mean the same goes for everyone. Three of my five best performing mechs are LRM boats, one of them being No 1. But sure, there is NO possible way LRM boats are usable, they are ALWAYS a detriment to the team, and of course the ONLY reason I get very good use out of them is because I got carried by my PUG teammates.

You've got to be kidding me.

But sure, keep telling yourself that, keep talking in absolutes and most importantly, never challenge your preconceptions.

I can make anything "work" in QP. Anyone can with enough effort. With a better mech and loadout you get better rrsults for the same effort. I've likely dropped more matches in LRM mechs than most the people on the board. I've got about 12k total matches played and 144 mechs.

I don't challenge my "preconceptions" about gravity or the earth being round because these are objective, measurable facts.

When you can show LRMs work consistently as well or better than direct fire then sure. We can look at why math doesn't work the way we think it does and literally all the best teams in comp play and FW don't understand how to play the game.

Until then though, yeah. Taking LRMs is worse than taking direct fire weapons for all the reasons that people have discussed and demonstrated. It's a game - take what you want, play and have fun. Clan SPLs are better than IS SPLs and direct fire is better than LRMs and 10 is a bigger number than 5. If LRMs were comparable to direct fire they'd get used by good players vs good players. They are not because they are only good vs bads. Direct fire is even better vs bads. That's the point.

[Ted Wayz]

MischiefSC, on 23 April 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

I can make anything "work" in QP. Anyone can with enough effort. With a better mech and loadout you get better rrsults for the same effort. I've likely dropped more matches in LRM mechs than most the people on the board. I've got about 12k total matches played and 144 mechs.

I don't challenge my "preconceptions" about gravity or the earth being round because these are objective, measurable facts.

When you can show LRMs work consistently as well or better than direct fire then sure. We can look at why math doesn't work the way we think it does and literally all the best teams in comp play and FW don't understand how to play the game.

Until then though, yeah. Taking LRMs is worse than taking direct fire weapons for all the reasons that people have discussed and demonstrated. It's a game - take what you want, play and have fun. Clan SPLs are better than IS SPLs and direct fire is better than LRMs and 10 is a bigger number than 5. If LRMs were comparable to direct fire they'd get used by good players vs good players. They are not because they are only good vs bads. Direct fire is even better vs bads. That's the point.

LRMs are bad in the hands of people who don't know how to use them.

Sounds like you should stay away from them.

[Shifty McSwift]

"Good vs bads" is a little overkill, there can be plenty of effort made by total lrm boats, as much as any other mech, sure maybe they have a higher propensity to be potatos, but at the end of the day LRMs can deal damage in situations that no other guns can emulate, that fact/distinction alone gives them real viability as a weapon type. It is undeniable.

That being said it doesn't mean they aren't considered near bottom of the meta in terms of tactics, just that the weapon concept/ideal is still a valid one that does do its intended job (just maybe not as well as it should).

[Erronius]

MischiefSC, on 23 April 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

Until then though, yeah. Taking LRMs is worse than taking direct fire weapons for all the reasons that people have discussed and demonstrated. It's a game - take what you want, play and have fun. Clan SPLs are better than IS SPLs and direct fire is better than LRMs and 10 is a bigger number than 5. If LRMs were comparable to direct fire they'd get used by good players vs good players. They are not because they are only good vs bads. Direct fire is even better vs bads. That's the point.

I don't hate people boating LRMs because they're a bad weapon, I hate people boating LRMs because they tend to stand at the back and they hang the rest of their team out to dry while they launch missiles into buildings or spend most of the match trying (and failing) to get locks from the back. It's the same reason why I dislike certain range/snipe assault builds...they hide behind cover somewhere poking at some random enemy while the rest of their team gets rolled. It's not so bad when you're trying to do that in a light or a medium, but in an assault? I just don't even.

Every time I die and spec all my team's assault mechs hiding in the back while the rest of the team gets rolled, God kills a kitten. PLS, everyone, think of the kittens.

And when the best counterarguments these type of assault pilots can mount are "Assaults aren't actually MEANT to assault" or "Maybe you guys should hang back with us, roasting marshmallows and knitting socks, instead of moving forward while we LRM and snipe", you know that's what the real issue is.

[MischiefSC]

Ted Wayz, on 23 April 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

LRMs are bad in the hands of people who don't know how to use them.

Sounds like you should stay away from them.

Except that the best players in the game have been the most consistent about saying LRMs are bad and why. It's why threads like this exist. Why LRMs are inferior has been tested, confirmed, posted a billion time and suggestions to PGI on how to fix them made.

Then there's the people who say that nobody else understand how LRMs work but can't seem to actually demonstrate that success against good players and dominate league play or FW or the like.

[MischiefSC]

Erronius, on 23 April 2017 - 08:20 AM, said:

I don't hate people boating LRMs because they're a bad weapon, I hate people boating LRMs because they tend to stand at the back and they hang the rest of their team out to dry while they launch missiles into buildings or spend most of the match trying (and failing) to get locks from the back. It's the same reason why I dislike certain range/snipe assault builds...they hide behind cover somewhere poking at some random enemy while the rest of their team gets rolled. It's not so bad when you're trying to do that in a light or a medium, but in an assault? I just don't even.

Every time I die and spec all my team's assault mechs hiding in the back while the rest of the team gets rolled, God kills a kitten. PLS, everyone, think of the kittens.

And when the best counterarguments these type of assault pilots can mount are "Assaults aren't actually MEANT to assault" or "Maybe you guys should hang back with us, roasting marshmallows and knitting socks, instead of moving forward while we LRM and snipe", you know that's what the real issue is.

That's part of why LRMs are bad. They teach people to play badly, they give high damage whole making that damage worth less than what direct fire does and it motivates people to make bad choices, which is why your odds of winner are reduced by LRM boating teammates.

Good players play direct fire, learn to play well and then can apply good habits to LRMs like they do any other weapon. Jman5 is a great example - he's a great player and uses LRMs sometimes. If everyone played LRMs like he does threads like this don't happen. I don't think you'd ever see him take LRMs to league play or competitive matches against good players either.

[Shifty McSwift]

They teach bad behaviours when boated by noobs for sure. But having a single support LRM for example within your loadout (along with a bunch of other weapons), it does teach good practices, like maintaining locks, taking advantage of team scouting, support firing and more.

[MischiefSC]

Shifty McSwift, on 23 April 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

They teach bad behaviours when boated by noobs for sure. But having a single support LRM for example within your loadout (along with a bunch of other weapons), it does teach good practices, like maintaining locks, taking advantage of team scouting, support firing and more.

Or carry more direct fire and be more effective.

Don't do supporting fire. Lay on the W key, stay in the front, focus with your teammates. When you're not in front you should be angling to get in front to help rotate your damaged teammates out and positioning to shoot between your teammates.

If you're regularly letting your teammates stand in front of you then you need to be more aggressive.

If your pug team is terrible and all huddling in the back you're going to lose anyway. Better to go down like a boss than practice being bad.

[Acehilator]

MischiefSC, on 23 April 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

I can make anything "work" in QP. Anyone can with enough effort. With a better mech and loadout you get better rrsults for the same effort. I've likely dropped more matches in LRM mechs than most the people on the board. I've got about 12k total matches played and 144 mechs.

I don't challenge my "preconceptions" about gravity or the earth being round because these are objective, measurable facts.

When you can show LRMs work consistently as well or better than direct fire then sure. We can look at why math doesn't work the way we think it does and literally all the best teams in comp play and FW don't understand how to play the game.

Until then though, yeah. Taking LRMs is worse than taking direct fire weapons for all the reasons that people have discussed and demonstrated. It's a game - take what you want, play and have fun. Clan SPLs are better than IS SPLs and direct fire is better than LRMs and 10 is a bigger number than 5. If LRMs were comparable to direct fire they'd get used by good players vs good players. They are not because they are only good vs bads. Direct fire is even better vs bads. That's the point.

LRMs require the same effort as everything else. The skillset required is just different. That is just one more factor of this debate, by merit of being almost fire-and-forget LRMs obviously HAVE to be a weapon requiring NO skill at all. Ah rofl, this "argument" gets me every time. Never gets old.

Sidenote 1, with 12k games, wth are you still doing in T2 with your pro direct fire weapons?

For the second time, leave group queue/FW out of this. Nobody being pro-LRM will seriously claim that you should use them in those game modes on a regular basis (they can work there, but the level of commitment of the team required does not make it worthwhile).

And for the second time, if you cannot get consistently equal or better results out of LRMs than direct fire weapons does not mean it is true for everyone. I don't like using Gauss and can't really get anything done with them, does that make them a bad weapon. Obviously not. And killing players with LRMs feels always the same from the attacker's point of view. Knowing how to use cover as a good player does not make you invulnerable to LRM fire. It just means you die a different way. I can't remember the last time I thought "man, that guy is giving me a really hard time".

Sidenote 2, you realize that up until the patch last month, the LRM5 was a way better weapon than the LRM10? With a "not even a contest" level of difference? That was probably the worst example you could have picked.

[Shifty McSwift]

MischiefSC, on 23 April 2017 - 09:29 AM, said:

Or carry more direct fire and be more effective.

Don't do supporting fire. Lay on the W key, stay in the front, focus with your teammates. When you're not in front you should be angling to get in front to help rotate your damaged teammates out and positioning to shoot between your teammates.

If you're regularly letting your teammates stand in front of you then you need to be more aggressive.

If your pug team is terrible and all huddling in the back you're going to lose anyway. Better to go down like a boss than practice being bad.

Teaching overall game tactics vs teaching the meta are different things, and one suffers from tunnel vision in ways.

This is noobs we are talking about, they probably shouldn't be boating anything if teaching them tactics and good teamwork to be normal practice is the goal.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

MischiefSC, on 23 April 2017 - 07:02 AM, said:

Except the complaints are coming from better players. The complaint isn't about dying to LRMs, it's the irritation that competitive players feel when they get sandbagged consistently by bads taking LRMs that they have to carry.

Everyone here complaining has a well over 1.0 w/l consistently. All the people saying LRMs are good have a sub 1.0 w/l. This isn't some magical coincidence.

Playing LRMs increases the odds of your team losing. People are at a disadvantage from being on the same team as 99.999% of LRM LRM players. That's the source of the complaint.

I do not have a -1.0 W/L and I say that LRMs have their place & can be quite effective in the hands of someone who knows how to use them. LRMs just happen to be the highest skill ceiling weapon unlike PPFLD which is easy mode, so the amount of horrifically terrible LRMers is greater as well as it being much more obvious than the people who cant hit **** with the most meta builds available. I know how to use them myself and know how to direct their use to the point that I am unhappy when there is no LRMers or the utterly incapable terribad LRMers on my team in QP... but you keep trying to blame Operator Error as Mechanical Failure, which is not a valid logical premise.

[MischiefSC]

Acehilator, on 23 April 2017 - 09:36 AM, said:

LRMs require the same effort as everything else. The skillset required is just different. That is just one more factor of this debate, by merit of being almost fire-and-forget LRMs obviously HAVE to be a weapon requiring NO skill at all. Ah rofl, this "argument" gets me every time. Never gets old.

Sidenote 1, with 12k games, wth are you still doing in T2 with your pro direct fire weapons?

For the second time, leave group queue/FW out of this. Nobody being pro-LRM will seriously claim that you should use them in those game modes on a regular basis (they can work there, but the level of commitment of the team required does not make it worthwhile).

And for the second time, if you cannot get consistently equal or better results out of LRMs than direct fire weapons does not mean it is true for everyone. I don't like using Gauss and can't really get anything done with them, does that make them a bad weapon. Obviously not. And killing players with LRMs feels always the same from the attacker's point of view. Knowing how to use cover as a good player does not make you invulnerable to LRM fire. It just means you die a different way. I can't remember the last time I thought "man, that guy is giving me a really hard time".

Sidenote 2, you realize that up until the patch last month, the LRM5 was a way better weapon than the LRM10? With a "not even a contest" level of difference? That was probably the worst example you could have picked.

Okay. So you get a team of 12, I get a team of 12. You set up with LRMs, boated or mixed or whatever, and we'll set up direct fire. We will see who wins.

Oh, wait! That's already been done thousands of time in comp play and FW! That's why the top competitive teams and top FW teams don't bring LRMs! Because when skill level gets much over mediocre on average on both teams then direct fire wins!

Get a team, dominate in FW against good teams or get into comp play and rock that div A. Show us all how it's done! Saying LRMs work in solo pug queue is like saying you can still keep a 0.7 w/l and afk every match. What works and what doesn't is tested in practice between teams of comparable skill. That's already been done.

I_AM_ZUUL, on 23 April 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

I do not have a -1.0 W/L and I say that LRMs have their place & can be quite effective in the hands of someone who knows how to use them. LRMs just happen to be the highest skill ceiling weapon unlike PPFLD which is easy mode, so the amount of horrifically terrible LRMers is greater as well as it being much more obvious than the people who cant hit **** with the most meta builds available. I know how to use them myself and know how to direct their use to the point that I am unhappy when there is no LRMers or the utterly incapable terribad LRMers on my team in QP... but you keep trying to blame Operator Error as Mechanical Failure, which is not a valid logical premise.

Highest skill ceiling weapon in the game?

Are you ******* high? I mean it. PPFLD is easy mode? You're saying locking a target or getting someone else's locks is harder than aiming?

If that's the case, if the skill ceiling is so high on LRMs then please, please go roll the top tier "ezmode" players in the game with them.

Which is something we know you can't do because LRMs are only useful against bads. Specifically because LRMs have the *lowest* skill ceiling in the game. Their effectiveness declines based on the skill of your opponent. PPFLD has the highest because its performances is impossible to mitigate - it depends completely on your ability to land shots.

Will tell you the same thing. Take your LRMs to bat against the top tier players in the game. See what happens. We already know what happens because it happens all the time. If LRMs worked as well as direct fire they'd see just as much use in the top tier of League play and even among the upper ranked FW teams.

[ANOM O MECH]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 23 April 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

I do not have a -1.0 W/L and I say that LRMs have their place & can be quite effective in the hands of someone who knows how to use them. LRMs just happen to be the highest skill ceiling weapon unlike PPFLD which is easy mode, so the amount of horrifically terrible LRMers is greater as well as it being much more obvious than the people who cant hit **** with the most meta builds available. I know how to use them myself and know how to direct their use to the point that I am unhappy when there is no LRMers or the utterly incapable terribad LRMers on my team in QP... but you keep trying to blame Operator Error as Mechanical Failure, which is not a valid logical premise.

Lrm's are not the weapon with the highest skill ceiling in the game and saying so is absurd. Lrm's are the hardest weapons to use effectively because they are not good, mainly due to how they spread damage. Also the firing mechanic is the absolute easiest in the game. The guass/ppc combo especially on a Night Gyr poptarting requires a lot of timing and aiming. Not to mention to be really effective since a high alpha brawler would rip you apart, the pilot needs map and situational awareness.

You seem to have a lot of opinions and always try and speak as if you were beyond reproach due to vast knowledge and experience. Then you say something like this. Clearly the best players in the game know a great deal more than you do. How you could possibly tell yourself and believe that PPFLD is easy mode is a very strong indicator that you need to learn more about this game before commenting on things you seem to be having a great deal of trouble understanding or accepting.

Edited by tker 669, 23 April 2017 - 11:06 AM.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

MischiefSC, on 23 April 2017 - 11:00 AM, said:

Okay. So you get a team of 12, I get a team of 12. You set up with LRMs, boated or mixed or whatever, and we'll set up direct fire. We will see who wins.

Oh, wait! That's already been done thousands of time in comp play and FW! That's why the top competitive teams and top FW teams don't bring LRMs! Because when skill level gets much over mediocre on average on both teams then direct fire wins!

Get a team, dominate in FW against good teams or get into comp play and rock that div A. Show us all how it's done! Saying LRMs work in solo pug queue is like saying you can still keep a 0.7 w/l and afk every match. What works and what doesn't is tested in practice between teams of comparable skill. That's already been done.



Highest skill ceiling weapon in the game?

Are you ******* high? I mean it. PPFLD is easy mode? You're saying locking a target or getting someone else's locks is harder than aiming?

If that's the case, if the skill ceiling is so high on LRMs then please, please go roll the top tier "ezmode" players in the game with them.

Which is something we know you can't do because LRMs are only useful against bads. Specifically because LRMs have the *lowest* skill ceiling in the game. Their effectiveness declines based on the skill of your opponent. PPFLD has the highest because its performances is impossible to mitigate - it depends completely on your ability to land shots.

Will tell you the same thing. Take your LRMs to bat against the top tier players in the game. See what happens. We already know what happens because it happens all the time. If LRMs worked as well as direct fire they'd see just as much use in the top tier of League play and even among the upper ranked FW teams.

LRMs have the LOWEST *Entry Point* not Ceiling... it is not that difficult to do PPFLD, just point and click with pixel perfect accuracy without ANY Arm/Torso convergence. But knowing Line of Flight and where you need to be to be using it makes LRMs a Thinking Mans weapon... the firing of the weapon is an almost irrelevance but maintaining proper positioning is what makes the weapon system. But sure man... if you believe that a poptarting Night Gyr is the height of skill possible, then I just feel sad for you. Cause I will let you in on a secret.... holding down my 2nd mouse button then using jumpjets with the pinky of my left hand then letting go of the 2nd mouse button while clicking the 1st mouse button & releasing my pinky IS NOT DIFFICULT AT ALL!!!!! I practiced the sequence for an hour and *POOF* I am a pinball god!!!

[I_AM_ZUUL]

tker 669, on 23 April 2017 - 11:03 AM, said:

Lrm's are not the weapon with the highest skill ceiling in the game and saying so is absurd. Lrm's are the hardest weapons to use effectively because they are not good, mainly due to how they spread damage. Also the firing mechanic is the absolute easiest in the game. The guass/ppc combo especially on a Night Gyr poptarting requires a lot of timing and aiming. Not to mention to be really effective since a high alpha brawler would rip you apart, the pilot needs map and situational awareness.

You seem to have a lot of opinions and always try and speak as if you were beyond reproach due to vast knowledge and experience. Then you say something like this. Clearly the best players in the game know a great deal more than you do. How you could possibly tell yourself and believe that PPFLD is easy mode is a very strong indicator that you need to learn more about this game before commenting on things you seem to be having a great deal of trouble understanding or accepting.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!! Thanks for that man... I pointed out how easy it was to train a sequence as why the poptarting Night Gyr is unimpressive, then I read your comment and you used it to show how hard it is. It is an hour of training man... that is it, simple sequencing. But as I point out in the above post... the firing of the LRM is not hard, being in the correct POSITION is what requires thinking, prediction, and an intensively intimate familiarity with every map from all angles. Keeping that Line of Flight 3D model visualized is interesting where as poptarting is not to my mind... cause there is literally no thought involved in it, just trained twitch muscle reflex.

[MischiefSC]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 23 April 2017 - 11:11 AM, said:

LRMs have the LOWEST *Entry Point* not Ceiling... it is not that difficult to do PPFLD, just point and click with pixel perfect accuracy without ANY Arm/Torso convergence. But knowing Line of Flight and where you need to be to be using it makes LRMs a Thinking Mans weapon... the firing of the weapon is an almost irrelevance but maintaining proper positioning is what makes the weapon system. But sure man... if you believe that a poptarting Night Gyr is the height of skill possible, then I just feel sad for you. Cause I will let you in on a secret.... holding down my 2nd mouse button then using jumpjets with the pinky of my left hand then letting go of the 2nd mouse button while clicking the 1st mouse button & releasing my pinky IS NOT DIFFICULT AT ALL!!!!! I practiced the sequence for an hour and *POOF* I am a pinball god!!!

Okay. Take LRMs to comp play and domimate. I'm eager to see it.

Along the way please kick the **** out of those top tier players with PPFLD too. It's easy, right?

Except you're wrong on both counts. LRMs will lose against comparable skill with PPFLD and because PPFLD has a higher skill ceiling the top tier players with PPFLD will dominate you as well. Why?

Because PPFLD has a higher skill ceiling, meaning you can get better with it than other weapon types.

[ANOM O MECH]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 23 April 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!! Thanks for that man... I pointed out how easy it was to train a sequence as why the poptarting Night Gyr is unimpressive, then I read your comment and you used it to show how hard it is. It is an hour of training man... that is it, simple sequencing. But as I point out in the above post... the firing of the LRM is not hard, being in the correct POSITION is what requires thinking, prediction, and an intensively intimate familiarity with every map from all angles. Keeping that Line of Flight 3D model visualized is interesting where as poptarting is not to my mind... cause there is literally no thought involved in it, just trained twitch muscle reflex.

Yet I have seen you in a Phoenix hawk ppc build (mixed at that) and you were terrible. So you want me to believe (or anyone for that matter) that you could train for an hour and be good?

[I_AM_ZUUL]

tker 669, on 23 April 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

Yet I have seen you in a Phoenix hawk ppc build (mixed at that) and you were terrible. So you want me to believe (or anyone for that matter) that you could train for an hour and be good?

It is a ****** mech that I played once a day just to get the x2 XP to master it... it is not a Mech that I ever spent any time training the twitch muscle memory to learn the velocity quirk/weapon placement. So that is a case in point where as you said pointed out, it was a "mixed" build because I refused to waste the time for a mech that I will never play again. You can see me in all kinds of sub-par mechs with weird builds since I Master them all & try to make it more interesting for myself while playing Mechs that are not amazing.

[ANOM O MECH]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 23 April 2017 - 12:53 PM, said:

It is a ****** mech that I played once a day just to get the x2 XP to master it... it is not a Mech that I ever spent any time training the twitch muscle memory to learn the velocity quirk/weapon placement. So that is a case in point where as you said pointed out, it was a "mixed" build because I refused to waste the time for a mech that I will never play again. You can see me in all kinds of sub-par mechs with weird builds since I Master them all & try to make it more interesting for myself while playing Mechs that are not amazing.

Doesn't matter. If you make ppc's work it is very unlikely that you could poptart and guass/ppc. Think that it should be obvious to most that if you could, ppc alone would be a cake walk.

You can go ahead and argue all you like however. You are wrong and can't back your claim with anything other than faulty 'logic' and your opinion. It will not change what the best players are doing and what skill is in this game. Not going to engage you any further as you will go on and on while continually being wrong.

[MischiefSC]

I can't blame anyone for being bad in a PHX. If Jesus Christ returned to earth, fired up MWO and dropped in a PHX he's be happy with 200 damage, a w/l of 1.0 and a 1.1 KDR.

Then, having dropped in pug queue, he'd say "**** all you cowardly snipers, campers and LRM boats. Not going to Rapture anyone now. Have fun with the Tribulation, ********."

Then ragequit.