123 replies to this topic

[Snazzy Dragon]

JENNER llC, on 07 April 2017 - 10:56 PM, said:

ironically its actually the kitfox C torsos (its like getting 5 free double heatsinks) that make the erppc build viable lol

JENNER llC, on 07 April 2017 - 10:56 PM, said:

ironically its actually the kitfox C torsos (its like getting 5 free double heatsinks) that make the erppc build viable lol

[Snazzy Dragon]

JENNER llC, on 07 April 2017 - 11:22 PM, said:

https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__5563811

come on you already know lol

If quirks were the whole story, the quickdraw hero would be a meta mech.

[Lupis Volk]

Mcgral18, on 07 April 2017 - 06:11 PM, said:

They're in the argument (which is in many threads)

Perhaps you could grow up enough to have an actual discussion, instead of crying about the children
Do it for the kids


I'll enjoy trying Tri-RAC5s on a Murdermets
Nothing under an Assault can do it otherwise...and even few of those.

An argument? What that mediocre mechs can't have a slightly less mediocre Hero? Because aside from all the "reeee reeeee!" that's the only "argument" and i use that word here loosely.

[Mystere]

Yeonne Greene, on 07 April 2017 - 08:42 PM, said:

I believe even the Urbie has been complained about.

Anyone who complains about an Urbie() has absolutely zero credibility, as far as I am concerned! <shrugs>

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

Wish I could actually get a chance to see what the Purifier can do. I keep getting lumped with potatoes so I end up doing 1st or 2nd most damage. In a Kitfox that isn't the role I want to be playing.

The mech started off very well for me though. I use it with one PPC and the rest = sml lasers but I'm weird like that.

Regarding whether it's pay to win (concept), it sure is.

I can see Russ is mulling the idea on twitter to open the modules out for everyone to be on the same level. If it's done with the loyalty mechs, why not the Heroes?

[Mcgral18]

Lupis Volk, on 07 April 2017 - 11:27 PM, said:

An argument? What that mediocre mechs can't have a slightly less mediocre Hero? Because aside from all the "reeee reeeee!" that's the only "argument" and i use that word here loosely.

Again, stop being a child
"Screeching" because you don't agree with something


That aside, If a Pod (or mech) is SIGNIFICANTLY superior to their Cbill alternatives, that is P2W
That is PAYING for a SIGNIFICANT advantage


I hope those highlights help you see the important details
If they were available in another matter, such as for Cbills, they can remain the same powerful options, as an upgrade to the chassis

If those SUPERIOR options for AVAILABLE FOR ONLY $$, THAT IS PAYING FOR A SIGNIFICANT ADVANTAGE
That is P2W, if you hadn't noticed


That is a bad thing
Now, try to make an argument, instead of crying

Edited by Mcgral18, 08 April 2017 - 10:07 AM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Snazzy Dragon, on 07 April 2017 - 11:06 PM, said:

If you are doing your erPPC Purifier that way then you are doing it wrong.

Edited by Rampage, 08 April 2017 - 08:46 AM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Mcgral18, on 08 April 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

That aside, If a Pod (or mech) is SIGNIFICANTLY superior to their Cbill alternatives, that is P2W
That is PAYING for a SIGNIFICANT advantage


I hope those highlights help you see the important details
If they were available in another matter, such as for Cbills, they can remain the same powerful options, as an upgrade to the chassis

If those SUPERIOR options for AVAILABLE FOR ONLY $$, THAT IS PAYING FOR A SIGNIFICANT ADVANTAGE
That is P2W, if you hadn't noticed

I will leave out all your condescending remarks.

You continue to chosse to take a very narrow focus to define P2W. You choose to focus on the individual chassis as "stand alone" enitities instead of focusing on the game as a whole which you choose to then call P2W.

But, obviously, each chassis is only one small part of the whole. No one forces you to play only one chassis in this game nor does anyone force you to play one chassis in any weight class in this game. Until they do, your definition of P2W falls short. There are chassis that are equal to or superior in performance to every one of these Heroes and every build that can be made by using these new pods. Therefore, no one is forcing anyone to spend any money to compete on a level playing field with anyone else. P2W is just being used as a buzz word because it draws attention and causes angst.

You want the stuff given out for free. I am OK with that as long as there is a viable means to do so and keep PGI and the game alive.

What I believe will actually happen here, based on my experience in this game the last 14 months, is that these pods will be changed so that they bring nothing new or interesting that can possibly be in anyway construed to be better than what exist now. I am OK with that too. I will buy one Hero no matter what. I will cancel one that I bought, not because it was strong but because it was different and I will not buy one other that I was considering mostly just to support the game.

If they leave the Heroes alone and release c-bill variants without bonuses but the same configurations, I will be OK with that too but I will be very surprised because I believe it will cost them a lot of sales because people will be content to just wait for them and will not pay for the Heroes because they will no longer be unique in any way. I do not believe camo and c-bill earning bonus alone will be enough of an incentive to sell very many Mechs. The hero needs to offer some uniqueness. Look at all the complaining about the Heroes that under perform or do not offer anything interesting now.

Edited by Rampage, 08 April 2017 - 09:22 AM.

[Tarogato]

Snazzy Dragon, on 07 April 2017 - 11:06 PM, said:

Rampage, on 08 April 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

If you are doing your erPPC Purifier that way then you are doing it wrong.

What Rampage means, but isn't letting on... is that the KFX-C side torsos give you the 10% heat gen that makes cERPPC viable on the KFX. Without the KFX-C side torsos, it's a tad hot.

[kesmai]

potato king approved.

[Tarogato]

Rampage, on 08 April 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

No one forces you to play only one chassis in this game nor does anyone force you to play one chassis in any weight class in this game. Until they do, your definition of P2W falls short.

When you want to play "x" mech, or if "x" is your favourite mech, it is an absolute kick in the balls to see that a new piece of equipment is being made available to make your mech better, but you need to pay to access it. Even worse for people who may have already shelled out cash to get the mech in the first place.

Yes, I know that in most cases one or two omnipods on a not-top-of-the-meta chassis isn't going to make that mech the best in the game (except for cases where I strongly believe it already has in certain circumstances: Purifier). Yes, we are taking a narrow focus, and only looking at the individual chassis. But that is what we define as absolutely critical. You and us seem to disagree on this, and I suppose there's nothing we can do to convince you otherwise. We consider "having a better variant than everybody else" to be the epitome of pay to win, even if it doesn't literally mean you actually win more.

Rampage, on 08 April 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

If they leave the Heroes alone and release c-bill variants without bonuses but the same configurations, I will be OK with that too but I will be very surprised because I believe it will cost them a lot of sales because people will be content to just wait for them and will not pay for the Heroes because they will no longer be unique in any way.

If PGI can't sell heroes because people are just waiting to buy the C-Bill equivalent omnipods, than PGI's hero model needs adjusted. Like I've said before, the purpose of hero mechs, the actual reason to buy them, in order:

- boosted C-Bill earnings
- Custom camo and name
- Unique hardpoints

Hardpoints shouldn't be the selling point of a hero, it should be the C-Bill boost first. If that's not enough to sell the heroes, than maybe the C-Bill boost needs to be higher.

[Mcgral18]

Rampage, on 08 April 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

I will leave out all your condescending remarks.

You continue to chosse to take a very narrow focus to define P2W. You choose to focus on the individual chassis as "stand alone" enitities instead of focusing on the game as a whole which you choose to then call P2W.

But, obviously, each chassis is only one small part of the whole. No one forces you to play only one chassis in this game nor does anyone force you to play one chassis in any weight class in this game. Until they do, your definition of P2W falls short. There are chassis that are equal to or superior in performance to every one of these Heroes and every build that can be made by using these new pods. Therefore, no one is forcing anyone to spend any money to compete on a level playing field with anyone else. P2W is just being used as a buzz word because it draws attention and causes angst.

You want the stuff given out for free. I am OK with that as long as there is a viable means to do so and keep PGI and the game alive.

What I believe will actually happen here, based on my experience in this game the last 14 months, is that these pods will be changed so that they bring nothing new or interesting that can possibly be in anyway construed to be better than what exist now. I am OK with that too. I will buy one Hero no matter what. I will cancel one that I bought, not because it was strong but because it was different and I will not buy one other that I was considering mostly just to support the game.

If they leave the Heroes alone and release c-bill variants without bonuses but the same configurations, I will be OK with that too but I will be very surprised because I believe it will cost them a lot of sales because people will be content to just wait for them and will not pay for the Heroes because they will no longer be unique in any way. I do not believe camo and c-bill earning bonus alone will be enough of an incentive to sell very many Mechs. The hero needs to offer some uniqueness. Look at all the complaining about the Heroes that under perform or do not offer anything interesting now.

HIS condescending remarks, BTW
He is the one making that derogatory statement
You realize what the REE REE is?


So, he started attacking, and has yet to put forward any argument aside from his crying


It's not a narrow view, it's the only view
It's the big picture
Because the Cheetah has more general roles than the Cute Fox, that doesn't allow the Cute Fox to be the absolute best Light at a certain role, for $$ only
That is paying for an advantage. Nothing pokes as well as the Cute Fox, between the payload and amount of high mounts. Nothing has 4 high mounted hardpoints, especially not that high, with also the heatsinks and ECM

The weapon mounts are the only new part (BTW, DOUBLING the amount available)


Again, if PGI continues with this P2W marketing, they'll never get another cent from me
Even if they fixed balance, made good maps, and if MW5 was good
I won't support that.
Payment is cosmetic and early access only. Cbill bonus is not an in-game bonus (strictly speaking)
But when mechs are significantly better when you pay $$?
That is, without any fancy wording, Paying for a Significant Advantage

If you use that robot without paying $$, you are inferior
You are Paying to have an advantage
P2W

[Cy Mitchell]

Tarogato, on 08 April 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

What Rampage means, but isn't letting on... is that the KFX-C side torsos give you the 10% heat gen that makes cERPPC viable on the KFX. Without the KFX-C side torsos, it's a tad hot.

Ahhhh, you told! He is a smart guy. He would have figured it out.

Tarogato, on 08 April 2017 - 09:23 AM, said:

When you want to play "x" mech, or if "x" is your favourite mech, it is an absolute kick in the balls to see that a new piece of equipment is being made available to make your mech better, but you need to pay to access it. Even worse for people who may have already shelled out cash to get the mech in the first place.

Yes, I know that in most cases one or two omnipods on a not-top-of-the-meta chassis isn't going to make that mech the best in the game (except for cases where I strongly believe it already has in certain circumstances: Purifier). Yes, we are taking a narrow focus, and only looking at the individual chassis. But that is what we define as absolutely critical. You and us seem to disagree on this, and I suppose there's nothing we can do to convince you otherwise. We consider "having a better variant than everybody else" to be the epitome of pay to win, even if it doesn't literally mean you actually win more.

So you are choosing to define P2W to suit your wants even though, when you look at the big picture it is not an accurate presentation of the game. I worry then that someone who may be interested in this game reads this forum or reddit and sees P2W and decides not to even give it a try because they thing they cannot have fun and be competitive unless they buy stuff.

Who is going to tell them that is not true?

Tarogato, on 08 April 2017 - 09:23 AM, said:

If PGI can't sell heroes because people are just waiting to buy the C-Bill equivalent omnipods, than PGI's hero model needs adjusted. Like I've said before, the purpose of hero mechs, the actual reason to buy them, in order:

- boosted C-Bill earnings
- Custom camo and name
- Unique hardpoints

Hardpoints shouldn't be the selling point of a hero, it should be the C-Bill boost first. If that's not enough to sell the heroes, than maybe the C-Bill boost needs to be higher.

Agreed but take out the unique hard points and how many people are going to buy the same old Mech only with a different skin and a c-bill bonus. No one that has been around very long really needs the extra c-bills. They can either reap big score through wins or they just have a ton of c-bills through time spent playing.

And if PGI offers anything new then someone is sure to start the P2W accusation unless the Mech is just worse than everything else it can be compared too.

[Cy Mitchell]

Mcgral18, on 08 April 2017 - 09:33 AM, said:

It's not a narrow view, it's the only view
It's the big picture
Because the Cheetah has more general roles than the Cute Fox, that doesn't allow the Cute Fox to be the absolute best Light at a certain role, for $$ only
That is paying for an advantage. Nothing pokes as well as the Cute Fox, between the payload and amount of high mounts. Nothing has 4 high mounted hardpoints, especially not that high, with also the heatsinks and ECM

The weapon mounts are the only new part (BTW, DOUBLING the amount available)

I can see that it is only view for you because you keep repeating it. But is is obviously not the only view because I disagree and I have told you why I believe you are wrong. You can choose to ignore my view and others who feel as I do but that will not make you any more right.

By the way, when you buy that godly Purifier be careful with it because it is dog slow, for a Light, and it tends to run pretty hot. It is a little Medium, not a Light. It cannot move fast enough to win a game on caps if that is what it comes down to. That makes it a bit of a one or two trick pony but hopefully PGI will take notice and nerf it soon.

Mcgral18, on 08 April 2017 - 09:33 AM, said:

Again, if PGI continues with this P2W marketing, they'll never get another cent from me
Even if they fixed balance, made good maps, and if MW5 was good
I won't support that.
Payment is cosmetic and early access only. Cbill bonus is not an in-game bonus (strictly speaking)
But when mechs are significantly better when you pay $$?
That is, without any fancy wording, Paying for a Significant Advantage

You have already stopped spending. What PGI risk here is not taking the chance to introduce anything new or interesting for fear of the P2W accusations. That will result in everyone else deciding to stop spending too. I do not choose to pay for an advantage. Hell, the only Mech I have that is Tier 1 is the KDK-3 which I pre-ordered and only played for a week and have not gone beyond basic skills. I intend to sell all those Kodiaks as soon as I can get the XP back from them. Not everyone chooses to be competitve, even in a PvP FPS game. I know that is difficult for some to comprehend but some folks just play games to have fun.

What is fun for me is getting and trying new stuff and seeing changes in the game. If none of that is happening then I am losing interest and thinking about leaving. Unlike you, I am still spending money. PGI should take my opinions into consideration also in order to keep me doing so.

Edited by Rampage, 08 April 2017 - 10:17 AM.

[Tarogato]

Rampage, on 08 April 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

Not everyone chooses to be competitve, even in a PvP FPS game. I know that is difficult for some to comprehend but some folks just play games to have fun.

I find it kinda entertaining that the casual player doesn't see something as P2W, while the competitive players are claiming it is P2W. Perhaps you don't see it our way because you don't care as much about that advantage, you're only in for the fun. But we do care about the advantage, because striving to be the best or to peak our performance is what we find fun. And knowing that we can't reach that peak in certain chassis without paying a premium is disheartening.

Quote

By the way, when you buy that godly Purifier be careful with it because it is dog slow and it tends to run pretty hot. It is a little Medium, not a Light. It cannot move fast enough to win a game on caps if that is what it comes down to.

104.5 isn't all that slow. You shouldn't be capping in it, like you said it's more like a medium. It's not a capper, it's a fighter. Besides, you don't win matches by capping, you only stand to lose them by ignoring capping - it's not the same thing.

And it's actually not very hot - even with 6 cERML or 8 cSPL, I find it pretty comfortable. But then again, I'm no stranger to a 6 cERML Cheetah myself, so I guess it's all relative.

Rampage, on 08 April 2017 - 09:37 AM, said:

So you are choosing to define P2W to suit your wants even though, when you look at the big picture it is not an accurate presentation of the game.

What do you think are my wants?

[Mcgral18]

Rampage, on 08 April 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

I can see that it is only view for you because you keep repeating it. But is is obviously not the only view because I disagree and I have told you why I believe you are wrong. You can choose to ignore my view and others who feel as I do but that will not make you any more right.

By the way, when you buy that godly Purifier be careful with it because it is dog slow, for a Light, and it tends to run pretty hot. It is a little Medium, not a Light. It cannot move fast enough to win a game on caps if that is what it comes down to. That makes it a bit of a one or two trick pony but hopefully PGI will take notice and nerf it soon.

What is fun for me is getting and trying new stuff and seeing changes in the game. If none of that is happening then I am losing interest and thinking about leaving. Unlike you, I am still spending money. PGI should take my opinions into consideration also in order to keep me doing so.

Your view is incredibly short sighted, as it doesn't take all roles into consideration
Cheetah > Cute Fox, as a general rule, except when you buy the Premium Pods
Then the Cute Fox does the poke/skirmish job better. For $$, exclusively

I am well aware of how the Cute Fox and Adder play
In fact, the Purifier and Adder have a very similar ERML poke role
Except the Purifier is higher mounted, JJs and has ECM, distinct advantages, while the Adder is tougher (and probably cools better)



New stuff can be added without it being exclusively better than current offerings, while also being FOREVER paywalled
You can pay to get it faster, and have economic bonuses (add EXP to that, not that it makes a difference)
But when things are forever superior, that kills games.
If the KDK3 was the Hero, that would have been a much larger problem, but it was only the Spirit Bear

Edited by Mcgral18, 08 April 2017 - 10:34 AM.

[Kroete]

Rampage, on 08 April 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

I will leave out all your condescending remarks.

You continue to chosse to take a very narrow focus to define P2W. You choose to focus on the individual chassis as "stand alone" enitities instead of focusing on the game as a whole which you choose to then call P2W.

But, obviously, each chassis is only one small part of the whole. No one forces you to play only one chassis in this game nor does anyone force you to play one chassis in any weight class in this game. Until they do, your definition of P2W falls short. There are chassis that are equal to or superior in performance to every one of these Heroes and every build that can be made by using these new pods. Therefore, no one is forcing anyone to spend any money to compete on a level playing field with anyone else. P2W is just being used as a buzz word because it draws attention and causes angst.

Clan dropdeck, 30 tons left,
you have 2 choices:

Kitfox with 2 high mount energy for each sidetorso, 3 arm energys and 2 arm ballistics and 3 ams,105 kph
or
ACH with 1 high mount energy for each sidetorso, 4 arm energys, 140 kph.
Depends on your playstyle, i would take the fox over the ach.


If you dont have the purifier, you can choose between:

ACH with 1 high mount energy for each sidetorso, 4 arm energys, 140 kph.
or
Kitfox with 1 high mount ballistic for each sidetorso, 3 arm energys, 2 arm ballistics, 3 ams, 105kph
This poor fox is no real choice over the ach.

Edited by Kroete, 08 April 2017 - 10:52 AM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Tarogato, on 08 April 2017 - 10:30 AM, said:

I find it kinda entertaining that the casual player doesn't see something as P2W, while the competitive players are claiming it is P2W. Perhaps you don't see it our way because you don't care as much about that advantage, you're only in for the fun. But we do care about the advantage, because striving to be the best or to peak our performance is what we find fun. And knowing that we can't reach that peak in certain chassis without paying a premium is disheartening.

Point taken but not all competitive p[layers are calling it P2W. Also it is not allowed in the current competitive environment so it is not having any effect or your competitiveness. If you are condidering solo or group Q competitve then I have to ask what is competitive about potato mashing?

Tarogato, on 08 April 2017 - 10:30 AM, said:

104.5 isn't all that slow. You shouldn't be capping in it, like you said it's more like a medium. It's not a capper, it's a fighter. Besides, you don't win matches by capping, you only stand to lose them by ignoring capping - it's not the same thing.

And it's actually not very hot - even with 6 cERML or 8 cSPL, I find it pretty comfortable. But then again, I'm no stranger to a 6 cERML Cheetah myself, so I guess it's all relative.




What do you think are my wants?

104KPH is pretty slow for a Light. There are a lot of Mediums that can go faster and even some heavies that are close. It is also a bit clumsy compared to some of the lights. Its saving grace is the structure quirks, especially the one on that right arm that you can use to shield if you get caught out.

You run both the Arctic Cheetah and the Purifier and said you would choose the Purifier for most situations. You posted the stats of your Purifier vs a Jenner IIC. I would be curious to see your stats of the Arctic Cheetah vs the Purifier. You could pull those from your Stat page.

Your wants? I think you defined that at the beginning of your post when you described the difference between me and you. You do not want anything that might be superior to what you can get for free introduced on any chassis. If it makes that chassis better than the free variants of that chassis then it must be given out free even if that chassis still in not viable or permitted in competitive play. That cover it?

Edited by Rampage, 08 April 2017 - 11:16 AM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Mcgral18, on 08 April 2017 - 10:33 AM, said:

Your view is incredibly short sighted, as it doesn't take all roles into consideration
Cheetah > Cute Fox, as a general rule, except when you buy the Premium Pods
Then the Cute Fox does the poke/skirmish job better. For $$, exclusively

I am well aware of how the Cute Fox and Adder play
In fact, the Purifier and Adder have a very similar ERML poke role
Except the Purifier is higher mounted, JJs and has ECM, distinct advantages, while the Adder is tougher (and probably cools better)



New stuff can be added without it being exclusively better than current offerings, while also being FOREVER paywalled
You can pay to get it faster, and have economic bonuses (add EXP to that, not that it makes a difference)
But when things are forever superior, that kills games.
If the KDK3 was the Hero, that would have been a much larger problem, but it was only the Spirit Bear

I do not as a rule play Lights. I have the Kit Fox because it was the first Clan Mech I bought and it more like a Medium than a Light. Having said that, I know that both the Locust and ACH are overall better Mechs than the Purifer. I do not know if there is another Light that can poke as well as the Purifier. So I will conceed that point due to ignorance on the subject. I do wonder though, if the Purifier is really that good, why do I not see many of them in game? Maybe because they are cash only but that has not stopped other Mechs from dominating QP and GQ drops in the past. I would think the word would have got out but I still see more Locust, ACH, RVN and even Spiders in game when I watch all the Tier 1 streamers. I can assure you that no Assault or Heavy pilot cringes in fear when they see a Purifier coming like they tend to do with LCT and ACH. I do not see the Purifier as a game changer. If you think that is short sighted then that is fine with me.

I would point out that even the Purifier is not Forever Paywalled. Not even for someone like you that has said you will never spend money on the game. You said yourself that you that you are considering using MC that you get free from events and tourneys to buy a Purifier when it is available for MC.

You also ignore that I have said many times that I have no issue with making these pods available for C-Bills. My concern is for the financial well-being of the game. Giving away everything for free means the game will not survive. Broadly labeling a game "pay to win" discourages newcomers from getting involved. I am also concerned that these constant accusations will stifle PGIs willingness to introduce anything new to the game. Both of these also do harm to the game.

[Karl Marlow]

Not so much Pay to Win when there are better options for spacebucks.