310 replies to this topic

[Lupis Volk]

Just want to point something out, in Puglandia many puggies zoom past their Assault's, leaving them to die at the hands of those dastardly lights. This breeds resentment in some Assault players because no matter what their team leaves them in the dust and to a fate worse than death and then these said teams complain about Assaults being bad.

Now if pugs in Puglandia stopped leaving their assaults to die things might be different.

[Ruar]

Acehilator, on 12 April 2017 - 06:18 AM, said:

"Well thought out arguments"? Your post on page 8? With those brilliant quotes like:

"Assaults have to be effective at 300m or less in order to truly fill their role of assaulting."? Have you even been playing solo queue lately? And taken a close look at where the meta build Assaults are hanging out, on average?

or (my favorite):

"You can't assault if you are in the back lines throwing long range damage out." What exactly is keeping LRM boats from closing with the enemy? And again, even if they hang out in the back, why are only LRM Assaults singled out for doing this? I don't really see people screaming bloody murder when a meta KDK does the same.

But yeah, LRM Assaults are ALWAYS detrimental to the team and there is NO possible way they could be helpful. That's why two out of my three best performing mechs are LRM Assaults. Like I said, suuuuuure, I only got lucky with teams carrying me, despite me dragging them down.

Your W/L ratio alone isn't enough information to make a determination about the effectiveness of LRM assault mechs. What is your W/L ratio in brawling assaults? Other META assault designs? Do you play heavy LRM mechs? If so what is your W/L there? Medium LRM W/L?

Pulling a single stat out of the pile and shining it up doesn't provide any true insight. To get a true understanding we'd have to compare to your other assault mech performances to see how well you do in assaults when you aren't doing the LRM thing. Then we would also have to see how well you do in other mech weight classes when playing with LRMs.

That would provide a pattern of performance so we could compare your stats. None of which factors in to how someone with less skill then uses the LRM assault mech. However, I would be willing to admit I have to change my opinion of LRM assaults if the results show that a highly skilled player can use that style as effectively as other assault designs.

It also would mean there is a very high skill requirement in order to make LRM assaults viable.

Without that kind of data I'm going to stick by my conclusion that the LRM assault design is ineffective for team play and merely rewards the individual. I believe LRMs are a support weapon and should never be the main weaponry focus for assault mechs. LRMs should be confined as main weaponry for medium and heavy mechs to play in a support role while the assault is meant to play on the front lines shoring up weak spots or ensuring a push is successful.

Show me hard data that I'm wrong and I'm willing to adjust, but until such time I feel confident in my logic.

[Dee Eight]

dario03, on 12 April 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

Does the block feature not block voip? Seems like it would but I've never tried. Would be a lot easier than muting people every time they're in a match with you.

If you ADD someone to your block list in a game, it auto-mutes that person in that match. But the mute doesn't carryover to other matches. You have to constantly re-mute them even though they're still on the block list.

[Karl Marlow]

Sorry but I only assault left.

[FireStoat]

Lupis Volk, on 12 April 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:

Now if pugs in Puglandia stopped leaving their assaults to die things might be different.

Nope, not buying this one. The only map this might be an issue, maybe, is Mining Consortium and only if your assault can't pull 60 KPH. I play all tonnages of mechs, and Assaults have zero (0) issues with keeping up when they are hitting the W button the moment the drop happens.

The only time Assaults get left behind is when they are tabbed out / afk and suddenly 'wake up' and start moving 30-45 seconds after the match is started. That's all on them. They need to be at the keyboard, hit W, and hold it down until they get to where they need to be.

[Mister Glitchdragon]

Lupis Volk, on 12 April 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:

Just want to point something out, in Puglandia many puggies zoom past their Assault's, leaving them to die at the hands of those dastardly lights. This breeds resentment in some Assault players because no matter what their team leaves them in the dust and to a fate worse than death and then these said teams complain about Assaults being bad.

Now if pugs in Puglandia stopped leaving their assaults to die things might be different.

I just want to hop in and agree with this. PUG life is a conundrum: Of course the team that can plan and coordinate will have an exponential advantage over the team that doesn't. At the same time, the dedicated PUG knows there's no guarantee a given QP team will be able to work together, so if you're a dedicated PUG you have to build and play with an eye toward being as independently effective as possible.

[ANOM O MECH]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 12 April 2017 - 03:17 PM, said:

If you were actually listening to the words that were coming out of mouth as I was saying them... then you would realize that everything I am saying is true. I know those "pieces" are people, and I do not expend them recklessly... but I do expect them to be expended & I do not hold myself out from that. When I call for a saddle push on crimson when I am in an Assault... I am the first one over the ridge and expend my mech to make that maneuver work, then call the rest of it dead. I NEVER am hiding in the back using people like they are NPCs like the selfish meta cGuass/cERPPC players do, being the last one to die while racking up my individual scores. This is a TEAM based game and among the many of the problems with the Reward System is that fact that we should be rewarded as a team with slight variations based performance but the main thing should be the Win or Loss... Losing should never Reward someone cause they hid in the back the entire fight and got 4 vulture kills at the end but it does. Conversely, people who expend their pieces to make a maneuver work early in a match should not be penalized when they were responsible for the team winning but did not get a lot of Damage/Kill cause they were tanking damage that allowed the rest of the team to move to a superior winning position.

Sorry that is just more rhetoric and story telling. You don't have any proof that you are qualified to drop call or that you know the game.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

tker 669, on 12 April 2017 - 05:00 PM, said:

Sorry that is just more rhetoric and story telling. You don't have any proof that you are qualified to drop call or that you know the game.

Not rhetoric or storytelling... just facts, so listen next time so we can win instead of wandering off to random parts of the map.

[PurplePuke]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 12 April 2017 - 05:02 PM, said:

Not rhetoric or storytelling... just facts, so listen next time so we can win instead of wandering off to random parts of the map.

ZUUL, with your attitude towards other people in-game, nobody will ever listen to you. Doesn't even matter if what you're saying makes sense.

[ANOM O MECH]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 12 April 2017 - 05:02 PM, said:

Not rhetoric or storytelling... just facts, so listen next time so we can win instead of wandering off to random parts of the map.

You don't seem to be following. You are telling a story with nothing to back up your story. You are making claims again with nothing to back them up. I also wasn't even in the match and at no time did I say that I was.

You also don't seem to remember our last two encounters. To give you a hint, they both ended with you raging over the comms how you were going to report me. You named the amount of wrongs and even said you were reporting me for my name....

Anyways, if you ever decide to change a bit and ask people if they minded you trying to call the match and when doing so, didn't call people names or blame them when stuff happens, maybe I might listen.

[Lupis Volk]

FireStoat, on 12 April 2017 - 04:53 PM, said:

Nope, not buying this one. The only map this might be an issue, maybe, is Mining Consortium and only if your assault can't pull 60 KPH. I play all tonnages of mechs, and Assaults have zero (0) issues with keeping up when they are hitting the W button the moment the drop happens.

The only time Assaults get left behind is when they are tabbed out / afk and suddenly 'wake up' and start moving 30-45 seconds after the match is started. That's all on them. They need to be at the keyboard, hit W, and hold it down until they get to where they need to be.

Yeah map design doesn't help.

I've been left behind in matches. People just zoom past and leave you behind. Only a small few bother to support their Assaults.

Mister Glitchdragon, on 12 April 2017 - 04:57 PM, said:

I just want to hop in and agree with this. PUG life is a conundrum: Of course the team that can plan and coordinate will have an exponential advantage over the team that doesn't. At the same time, the dedicated PUG knows there's no guarantee a given QP team will be able to work together, so if you're a dedicated PUG you have to build and play with an eye toward being as independently effective as possible.

Yep when you play solo in pugs you have to be as independent as possible, because trusting a pug more often than not leads you to disappointment.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 12 April 2017 - 05:17 PM.

[Ruar]

Lupis Volk, on 12 April 2017 - 05:16 PM, said:

Yeah map design doesn't help.

I've been left behind in matches. People just zoom past and leave you behind. Only a small few bother to support their Assaults.



Yep when you play solo in pugs you have to be as independent as possible, because trusting a pug more often than not leads you to disappointment.

There is a definite issue with working as a team in general which tends to effect the slower or specialized mechs the most.

As for the OP, it would seem an assault built around LRMs is very dependent on the team to get locks, provide support against lights, keeping the enemy from getting too close, and fighting in an area where the LRMs are effective. That's not a very independent build design at all.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

tker 669, on 12 April 2017 - 05:12 PM, said:

You don't seem to be following. You are telling a story with nothing to back up your story. You are making claims again with nothing to back them up. I also wasn't even in the match and at no time did I say that I was.

You also don't seem to remember our last two encounters. To give you a hint, they both ended with you raging over the comms how you were going to report me. You named the amount of wrongs and even said you were reporting me for my name....

Anyways, if you ever decide to change a bit and ask people if they minded you trying to call the match and when doing so, didn't call people names or blame them when stuff happens, maybe I might listen.

the common denominator from that is you... so I repeat, Listen to the Movement & Target Commands and dont wander off to random parts of the map being useless cause I do happen to remember and your general aversion to anything that resembles staying with the team.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Dee Eight, on 12 April 2017 - 04:24 PM, said:

snip

I built you a better MAD-IIC-D... http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2a26f0105bfb5a5

Edited by I_AM_ZUUL, 12 April 2017 - 05:46 PM.

[ANOM O MECH]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 12 April 2017 - 05:34 PM, said:

the common denominator from that is you... so I repeat, Listen to the Movement & Target Commands and dont wander off to random parts of the map being useless cause I do happen to remember and your general aversion to anything that resembles staying with the team.

You can repeat all you like. Nothing you have to say so far is particularly convincing that you have any business calling or telling folks what to do.

You also don't remember me as it is obvious since you thought I was in the drop in question....

[Dee Eight]

FireStoat, on 12 April 2017 - 04:53 PM, said:

Nope, not buying this one. The only map this might be an issue, maybe, is Mining Consortium and only if your assault can't pull 60 KPH. I play all tonnages of mechs, and Assaults have zero (0) issues with keeping up when they are hitting the W button the moment the drop happens.

The thing with mining collective is its pretty damned predictable that the team that drops with the assaults on the right side, will beeline for D4, and the other team will only at best...a third of the time, actually have players that know that, and react accordingly. The D4 area is probably the best defensive area on that map because of the cover it affords against LRMs and favouring slow moving mechs to creep around. More often than not, if I'm in a slow assault especially with direct fire weapons like a KCG or a DWF or SNV and I drop the left corner facing towards the D line...i'm not going to play silly nascar chasing around to the fox/golf line when I know I'd just have to then cut back to D4/D5 area to actually engage the enemy. Much simpler to go off to setup a sniper position around Charlie 4 and Bravo 4 and wait for the enemy assaults to walk into view at Delta 4... almost every time...they're facing the center area of the map where the rest of the team has nascared so they've got weak back armor facing me. HGN2C-Cs pilots in particular seem to rely on the +8 bonus armor everywhere and devote zero additional weight to the rear torsos and if they have a ballistic its on the right arm...so shoot the right shoulder and cripple them.

Edited by Dee Eight, 12 April 2017 - 06:30 PM.

[Wil McCullough]

Lupis Volk, on 12 April 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:

Just want to point something out, in Puglandia many puggies zoom past their Assault's, leaving them to die at the hands of those dastardly lights. This breeds resentment in some Assault players because no matter what their team leaves them in the dust and to a fate worse than death and then these said teams complain about Assaults being bad.

Now if pugs in Puglandia stopped leaving their assaults to die things might be different.

like firestoat, i don't buy this as well.

i frequently notice assault pilots dropping behind, standing still and complaining about being left behind. meanwhile, a friendly direwolf is trundling along just fine, shoulder to shoulder with me on the front line.

assaults ACTUALLY being left behind is a pretty rare occurrence.

most of the time, assaults can't keep up because they afk 30 sec once they drop, take a scenic path, or the most common problem is - they start moving, then stop, then move again, then stop again. and rinse repeat. i can't fathom why.

there is no excuse for an assault to be 800m behind everyone else. if it happens, the problem doesn't like with the team or the mech. the problem lies between the assault pilot's chair and keyboard.

[Erronius]

Wil McCullough, on 12 April 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

like firestoat, i don't buy this as well.

i frequently notice assault pilots dropping behind, standing still and complaining about being left behind. meanwhile, a friendly direwolf is trundling along just fine, shoulder to shoulder with me on the front line.

assaults ACTUALLY being left behind is a pretty rare occurrence.

most of the time, assaults can't keep up because they afk 30 sec once they drop, take a scenic path, or the most common problem is - they start moving, then stop, then move again, then stop again. and rinse repeat. i can't fathom why.

there is no excuse for an assault to be 800m behind everyone else. if it happens, the problem doesn't like with the team or the mech. the problem lies between the assault pilot's chair and keyboard.

One example that comes to mind is when you're on Frozen City and people turn the Nascar up to 11. But even then I'll see some assaults keeping up...but it's usually those assaults that stop on one side or the other between buildings and try to snipe/lurm while everyone else keeps moving that end up getting left behind. Then it becomes a sort of double-headed Nascar Ouroborus, and I'd bet that 99% those assaults never speak up until it's already too late.

Someone earlier made the comment that people never 'support the assaults'. Normally I will do a full 180 if an assault speaks up and asks for help, even if it's just to try running back to chase lights away. But usually they're half dead before they say anything, or they're so far behind the rest of the team that you know that it wasn't as simple as being left behind; they were either AFK, or standing stationary sniping/LRMing for far too long, and now they want everyone else to drop what they're doing to save them.

[FireStoat]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 12 April 2017 - 05:45 PM, said:

I built you a better MAD-IIC-D... http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2a26f0105bfb5a5

Let me know when he can do as much meaningful damage using LRM's over a brawl build.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5bf0f37ff4ae09c

https://imgur.com/a/xdHpF

[Wil McCullough]

Erronius, on 12 April 2017 - 08:36 PM, said:

One example that comes to mind is when you're on Frozen City and people turn the Nascar up to 11. But even then I'll see some assaults keeping up...but it's usually those assaults that stop on one side or the other between buildings and try to snipe/lurm while everyone else keeps moving that end up getting left behind. Then it becomes a sort of double-headed Nascar Ouroborus, and I'd bet that 99% those assaults never speak up until it's already too late.

Someone earlier made the comment that people never 'support the assaults'. Normally I will do a full 180 if an assault speaks up and asks for help, even if it's just to try running back to chase lights away. But usually they're half dead before they say anything, or they're so far behind the rest of the team that you know that it wasn't as simple as being left behind; they were either AFK, or standing stationary sniping/LRMing for far too long, and now they want everyone else to drop what they're doing to save them.

yup.

when comparing the average assault's speed to a clan heavy's speed, it takes almost 2 entire minutes of mashing 'w' to put a distance of 800m between them if they're both moving in the same direction. now, considering that IS heavies often move slower than clan heavies, the time needed to "leave the assaults behind" can go even longer.

2 minutes is almost enough for a large percentage of a team to go spawn to spawn on most maps.

when assaults get left behind by the main force, they're often the cause of their own circumstance because they don't move.