193 replies to this topic

[Cybrid 0x0t2md2w]

it's a toss up on ecm, it's not always the best but it's the "best" at dodging potatos being the invisible dorito from their cheese dust sniffing radars. they should really leave the 2m RT though. it's not what I personally wanted but it was something. but it seems there will always be someone to argue against something new especially if it looks p2w. sure we get a "new" crappy scat with a 1m LT, big woop since that's the ecm bay for most people. I'm glad there's a new one coming but it made the hero worthless. and we rely on pgi to come out with something new with more or better hardpoints on a chassis like the shadowcat. but this is boring and it's not getting hardly anywhere.

so I'm gonna leave one of my gimmick sadcats that I have fun with at times. perhaps two.
SHC-PRIME Heresy
SHC-PRIME Heretic

and to say, heresy is what I would use the 1e 1b arm with if I were able to mount that lbx20 with 2 fixed structure moved to the left arm(all chassis).

Edited by Cybrid 0x0t2md2w, 14 April 2017 - 07:07 PM.

[Clanner Scum]

If they give the hero variant its second missile hard point back then I'll buy the mech, but as it stands I'm not going to buy it. Also don't have any interest in the H variant at all.

Pretty disappointed with how the shadowcat turned out as that was the clan hero I was looking forward to the most. Personally I'd rather the H variant have a ballistic hard point or two in the right torso so I can put UAC2's in it.

Edited by Clanner Scum, 14 April 2017 - 07:58 PM.

[Pixel Hunter]

I'm okay with this. the shadow cat is a really strong sniper...it doesn't seem to need help and a pay to win model is even worse

[Cybrid 0x0t2md2w]

but it's not helping it be any better of a "sniper" only that it has more options and is more uniform.

[Jingseng]

If i had a time machine, I'd go back and put up bulletin boards and give literacy lessons. Salt used to be worth its weight in gold.

[Jep Jorgensson]

Prosperity Park, on 14 April 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

Hero Omnimechs are in a sticky situation because, although an IS Hero can be new without being OP because it can also have flaws or drawbacks, a Clan Hero is nothing but an assemblage of Omnipods that can be integrated into other mechs such that Omnipod swapping can mitigate flaws. Clan Omnis will always have to be not-really-unique because if you make then "unique" then you are simply performing a cash-only product update for the Entire Chassis line.

Would you like some IS omni's then? How about the Blackjack and Sunder?

Mcgral18, on 14 April 2017 - 12:44 PM, said:

Great...a Clam Apologist who wants to pay to have an advantage


Please go play COD, leave this franchise

1. Learn how to spell

2. Never played COD in my life. You are free to go back to it though.

3. I am actually not planning on buying any of the new heroes at this time. But nice try just the same.

Edited by Jep Jorgensson, 14 April 2017 - 10:15 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 April 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

ECM won't make a drop in the hat for the IFR, the ERML build will take it, but it won't be essential or play that different except for in PUG queue. That said, I admitted the IFR is used more than the SHC now, but the additional M hardpoint has more impact on the SHC than the ECM or extra energy do on the IFR. You seriously overrate ECM.

I was surprised
The SadCat can fit SRM24+A (400), 2 Flamers no issue. I forget Clam SRMs are so low tonnage, and there's a ton free there, still (heatsink?)


But, you don't think the Fridge getting the 6th laser is important? 15 sinks for 6 SPLs is still pretty amazing, unless it loses all its quirks now (because, it wouldn't be unreasonable...it has respectable firepower options)

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 14 April 2017 - 09:23 PM, said:

I was surprised
The SadCat can fit SRM24+A (400), 2 Flamers no issue. I forget Clam SRMs are so low tonnage, and there's a ton free there, still (heatsink?)


But, you don't think the Fridge getting the 6th laser is important? 15 sinks for 6 SPLs is still pretty amazing, unless it loses all its quirks now (because, it wouldn't be unreasonable...it has respectable firepower options)

The Cicada-2B is better than the Fridge from a sustained brawling-DPS standpoint. 6 SPL looks underwhelming when you're running 5 MPL pretty damn cool (it's Firestarter-S firepower, except the Firestarter is huge, and you get serious quirked cooling on the Cic). The Ice Fridge is actually better at mid-range from a sustainability standpoint and while I've run the 5SPL Fridge, it's just limited unless your plan is to outright/aggressive brawl and tank a little.

Andi Nagasia, on 14 April 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

as a Medium Scout its easier to find a SHC out alone or mostly alone, a HBK usually has support,
also a HBK isnt as hard Point Starved as a SHC, 1v1 its hard to lose to a SHC,

The HBK-IIC-A is primarily used as support/suppression as it poptarts better than the alternatives. It's dem mounts baby!

The Scat's primary role is scouting with the occasional Streak support. The Scat primarily suffers from not being able to deal a lot of damage compared to its breathen (which is why an extra Energy hardpoint is much more valuable than an extra Missile hardpoint - the latter still being useful). ECM is not entirely a build definer in this instance (like the current iteration of the Mist Lynx).

Quote

perhaps not, but i would take a VPR over a SHC in drop 3,
faster more manuverable more weapons, and can jump higher,

If you really need the Viper for the JJs, that's your choice. There are better options like using a Light to JJ (except for MRBC Drop 3) like using an Ice Ferret or Cicada for ground bound scouting duties. Viper is still relatively vulnerable (arms come off pretty easily, so you'll be limited to torso weapons).

Quote

im not saying it wont give you something, im saying i would still rather have the Hero 2M RT,
Heros have always offered something new and interesting, and this Hero doesnt, not really,

I kinda agree with Quicksilver's assessment. The Scat tends to lose side torsos like crazy as it is and honestly if you keep the ECM and 4M (assuming the 2M RT was in play), you won't have the kind of tonnage you need for missile boating (Streak or Splatcat). Losing the ECM for the extra tonnage (which would be the current case's result) is not a total lost cause.

Quote

your missing the Point,
if the IFR can hold 5E max now, and after the IFR-P it can hold 5E +ECM, the IFR Chassis is getting Buffed,
if the SHC can hold 2E +3M +ECM now, and after the SHC-P it can hold 2E +4M, the its a Trade,
the fact is the IFR is getting a Net Buff, the SHC isnt it has to lost something to gain +1M,

I get that, but for the purposes of the missile hardpoints... you are likely to be tonnage starved for ammo as said before as ECM is not really a dealbreaker here. ECM is much more useful at range where people don't necessarily notice you. It's not as useful when you're up close and personal.

Quote

some may feel 1M is better than ECM, some may feel ECM is better than 1M,
i feel that ECM is more Important than 1M, and im sure im not alone in how i feel,
-
im willing to go half way with you,
id say we both are right in a way because a Long Range SHC needs ECM,
where as if your going to be getting in close ECM matters less, but it still Matters,

For the purposes of theorycrafting the Scat build, the ECM is mostly inconsequential (and will most likely be removed for ammo).

Here's my build example:
SHC-PRIME

The missing tonnage is for the 4th ASRM6. You surely could tweak the build by using CSML instead of CSPL, but that'll save you like a ton at best, which would still be needed for ammo anyways.

Unless there's some situation where you decide to forgo lasers and run Streaks (which requires another 2 tons in total if you swap 4 of them in), you'll still be in an ammo starvation situation.

The ECM is honestly inconsequential because you will MOST LIKELY drop it in favor of using that tonnage elsewhere.

Edited by Deathlike, 14 April 2017 - 10:37 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mcgral18, on 14 April 2017 - 09:23 PM, said:

But, you don't think the Fridge getting the 6th laser is important? 15 sinks for 6 SPLs is still pretty amazing, unless it loses all its quirks now (because, it wouldn't be unreasonable...it has respectable firepower options)

It's important, but not quite as much as the SCat being able to mount that 4th ASRM6 in place of the ECM, those are different jumps in firepower.

[Deathlike]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 April 2017 - 11:15 PM, said:

It's important, but not quite as much as the SCat being able to mount that 4th ASRM6 in place of the ECM, those are different jumps in firepower.

I mean, having Cheetah firepower level for a Frdige is not that amazing compared to a Scat having the equivalent power of a SplatGriffin or a Splatter (Splat Adder). Durability is a problem obviously, but the potential is there.

When building my example Splatcat, you'd probably be hiding all the ammo on the Right Arm had PGI's original plan went to fruition. That would be way too fragile a build (arms fall off a scat easily too). The symmetrical change is actually a buff.

Edited by Deathlike, 14 April 2017 - 11:39 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

but if the ECM isnt as much as a deal maker than having the Hero 2E 4M ECM isnt as much as a Deal Breaker,
i can understand the viability of a 4M SHC, but its Durability worries me, if it gets its quirks back it maybe different,

@Quicksilver,
ya im not trying to obstinate, i am trying to see it your way,
and alot of your statements i agree with, i just still feel the SHC Hero should have Kept its 2M RT,
and im worried that OmniMech Heros will Degrade into Premium Champions(nothing new just Camo & Bonus)

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathlike, on 14 April 2017 - 11:39 PM, said:

When building my example Splatcat, you'd probably be hiding all the ammo on the Right Arm had PGI's original plan went to fruition. That would be way too fragile a build (arms fall off a scat easily too). The symmetrical change is actually a buff.

Which is what I have been trying to get across, but apparently people just don't understand.

[Pariah Devalis]

Andi Nagasia, on 15 April 2017 - 07:44 AM, said:

but if the ECM isnt as much as a deal maker than having the Hero 2E 4M ECM isnt as much as a Deal Breaker,
i can understand the viability of a 4M SHC, but its Durability worries me, if it gets its quirks back it maybe different,

@Quicksilver,
ya im not trying to obstinate, i am trying to see it your way,
and alot of your statements i agree with, i just still feel the SHC Hero should have Kept its 2M RT,
and im worried that OmniMech Heros will Degrade into Premium Champions(nothing new just Camo & Bonus)

You miss the problem point. It wasn't that the hero had 2M, but that it had 2M in the same torso, when the only Cbill alternative was 1M in that torso. Had PGI released the hero as is, except with one M in the LT instead, it would have been ok. Specifically because 1M would compete with the cbills ECM LT, and each tool fits certain things better. At long range, the ECM is pretty powerful for a harassment platform. For close range, the need for firepower and the reduced utility in a brawl of ECM makes the 1M more worthwhile. It wouldn't be a direct upgrade to the SHC, whereby the original 2M RT would have been. Especially since you could not only directly increase firepower, but do that at no hit to the SHC ECM stealth capability.

It would be having your cake and eating it too, which isn't how a good system of balance sound work. Every pro needs a con.

I would have ideally seen the hero with 1m in each side torso, and a cbills variant with 1 or 2 Energy in the left torso. Forcing a decision for the player: stealth or firepower?

[Deathlike]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 15 April 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

Which is what I have been trying to get across, but apparently people just don't understand.

I had to build this when I wrote that post to understand what you meant. I figured the problem was going to be tonnage related, but placement became the obvious detriment (it's Warhawk LT-RT syndrome).

[Sjorpha]

Deathlike, on 14 April 2017 - 11:39 PM, said:

...of a SplatGriffin or a Splatter (Splat Adder)...

I think we should call these "Spliffin" and "Spladder" and make a cartoon about them.

Also: "Shadowsplat", that can be the villain.

[Pariah Devalis]

Sjorpha, on 15 April 2017 - 01:48 PM, said:

I think we should call these "Spliffin" and "Spladder" and make a cartoon about them.

Also: "Shadowsplat", that can be the villain.

Splatow Cat?

[Andi Nagasia]

Pariah Devalis, on 15 April 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

You miss the problem point. It wasn't that the hero had 2M, but that it had 2M in the same torso, when the only Cbill alternative was 1M in that torso. Had PGI released the hero as is, except with one M in the LT instead, it would have been ok. Specifically because 1M would compete with the cbills ECM LT, and each tool fits certain things better. At long range, the ECM is pretty powerful for a harassment platform. For close range, the need for firepower and the reduced utility in a brawl of ECM makes the 1M more worthwhile. It wouldn't be a direct upgrade to the SHC, whereby the original 2M RT would have been. Especially since you could not only directly increase firepower, but do that at no hit to the SHC ECM stealth capability.

It would be having your cake and eating it too, which isn't how a good system of balance sound work. Every pro needs a con.

I would have ideally seen the hero with 1m in each side torso, and a cbills variant with 1 or 2 Energy in the left torso. Forcing a decision for the player: stealth or firepower?

im not missing the point, i dont want my OmniMech heros to just become glorified Champions,
why should the SHC have to choose ECM for fire power, why not release the H with a 2M LT,
or release a non Cannon SHC thats desighed to fix the SHCs hardpoint short comings,

Quirks could be used to Balance seemingly stronger OmniPods,
but no one seems to care about using Quirks to Fix OmniPod Problems,
but they are Fine with IS BattleMech Heros, offering something Unique,

if they release the 2M RT on the SHC Hero with a -20% Cooldown Quirk it would be balanced,
just because it has more hardpoints doesnt mean its instantly better their are ways to balance it,
this is what im trying to get across, now please dont tell me no amount of quirks can balance a 2M RT,

[Deathlike]

Andi Nagasia, on 15 April 2017 - 02:45 PM, said:

im not missing the point, i dont want my OmniMech heros to just become glorified Champions,
why should the SHC have to choose ECM for fire power, why not release the H with a 2M LT,
or release a non Cannon SHC thats desighed to fix the SHCs hardpoint short comings,

Quirks could be used to Balance seemingly stronger OmniPods,
but no one seems to care about using Quirks to Fix OmniPod Problems,
but they are Fine with IS BattleMech Heros, offering something Unique,

if they release the 2M RT on the SHC Hero with a -20% Cooldown Quirk it would be balanced,
just because it has more hardpoints doesnt mean its instantly better their are ways to balance it,
this is what im trying to get across, now please dont tell me no amount of quirks can balance a 2M RT,

The 2M RT would be bad for the mech, because it becomes more gimmicky and fragile easier to neuter.

Edited by Deathlike, 15 April 2017 - 03:03 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Deathlike, on 15 April 2017 - 03:03 PM, said:

The 2M RT would be bad for the mech, because it becomes more gimmicky and fragile easier to neuter.

Agreed. A symmetric setup gives the mech additional longevity when armor rolling like mad in a brawl. Or if that one enemy splat grif gets one good alpha into your side.

[Andi Nagasia]

Deathlike, on 15 April 2017 - 03:03 PM, said:

The 2M RT would be bad for the mech, because it becomes more gimmicky and fragile easier to neuter.

Pariah Devalis, on 15 April 2017 - 03:11 PM, said:

Agreed. A symmetric setup gives the mech additional longevity when armor rolling like mad in a brawl. Or if that one enemy splat grif gets one good alpha into your side.

if so nothing changes it becomes another option, 2E 4M ECM and slightly more Fragile,
or 2E 4M no ECM, but more balanced as it can spread ammo and such, its a choice,

i say we should have the Choice, 4UAC20s on a DWF isnt viable,
that doesnt mean we should be Limited to only 3UAC20s,
its a Choice, a Choice i feel we should have,