26 replies to this topic

[AngrySpartan]

Skill tree...skill tree never changes.

Screenshots below are from Alistair's Winter's "Do we have a consensus?" topic from previous PTS. That's the most comprehensive summary of players opinions I was able to find, two hundred and sixty people has casted votes back there with 3211 views. Yet, none of this has been taken into account...


Solahma's skill tree proposal, which was excellent! Still, not taken into account...
https://youtu.be/IFDIhYwslVM

And here we are, back when PGI started with skill tree PTS. So here's the feedback I want to give to PGI: START LISTENING to the players! Stop pretending that you are listening and start acting according to feedback. Start learning from your mistakes.

[Fox the Apprentice]

They delayed the skill tree because they were listening, but it seems they (unfortunately) only looked at the refund part of the skill tree. No other part was really changed.

I really don't want it to be delayed again, but it'd be nice to have something more like Solahma suggested.

[Ruar]

Fox the Apprentice, on 25 April 2017 - 03:55 PM, said:

They delayed the skill tree because they were listening, but it seems they (unfortunately) only looked at the refund part of the skill tree. No other part was really changed.

I really don't want it to be delayed again, but it'd be nice to have something more like Solahma suggested.

I absolutely want it delayed until they get the tree system correct. I can't play the game with the tree they currently have because it makes me mad to click on skills I don't want/need. If this is their final decision then I'll be cancelling my pre-orders and moving on to a new game.

The tangled mess they keep handing us defies logic and whoever is in charge of this skill tree needs to let go of their pet idea and listen to what the players want. There are no reasons to keep handing us this broken system when better systems have been offered and accepted by the player base.

[AngrySpartan]

Fox the Apprentice, on 25 April 2017 - 03:55 PM, said:

They delayed the skill tree because they were listening, but it seems they (unfortunately) only looked at the refund part of the skill tree. No other part was really changed.
I really don't want it to be delayed again, but it'd be nice to have something more like Solahma suggested.

Well, if they'd expected to pacify most of the players by fixing refund policy, they still failed (my initial impression at least). Anyway refund was never the issue for me. Skill tree being unbearable piece of junk is an issue however, and PGI did exactly nothing to fix it.

Being resistant to good ideas is PGI's trademark quality. Implementing good ideas in a way noone likes them is PGIs second feature (yes, I am talking about energy draw). And until Uncle Russ's and Uncle Paul's dilusions did not mess with MWO's fun factor a lot, PGI was able to get away with that.

Skill tree is different, and they have to do it right...even if it will take them another year to fix it. It's not ready at the moment, that's a fact.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 25 April 2017 - 04:06 PM.

[Dee Eight]

They've said repeatedly they have no intention of doing linear trees. 171 forum voters don't amount to much in a game with tens of thousands of players.

[Ruar]

Dee Eight, on 25 April 2017 - 04:45 PM, said:

They've said repeatedly they have no intention of doing linear trees. 171 forum voters don't amount to much in a game with tens of thousands of players.

Actually.... those 171 forum voters are a significant portion of the vocal minority of players who use the forums. That number of responses is a good indicator of what the player base at large desires similar to how TV ratings are calculated from a small percentage which represents the whole.

The devs are making a mistake and many, many players are trying to get them to fix that mistake before it goes live. PGI can admit when they are wrong and take a new approach, it's time they made that admission about the skill tree and implement what the player base wants instead of being driven away through bad decisions.

[Cato Phoenix]

Fox the Apprentice, on 25 April 2017 - 03:55 PM, said:

They delayed the skill tree because they were listening, but it seems they (unfortunately) only looked at the refund part of the skill tree. No other part was really changed.

I really don't want it to be delayed again, but it'd be nice to have something more like Solahma suggested.

My thoughts exactly, except I'd be okay with them delaying it to have a better tree.

Edited by Cato Phoenix, 25 April 2017 - 05:27 PM.

[l33tworks]

Lol Thought they are working on a more linear tree this whole time after the feedback..Refunds are only a temporary problem people shpuld never have whinged about it as much as they did. Even if they can get it wrong, its simply losses you can earn back, and they coul inject funds into accounts if it got a bad wrap, wheras getting the skill layout wrong we are stuck with forever.

In regards to the admission that forcing people to take skills they dont want, not just a little but literally all the time you use the tree, I think they made the design fescision very early on about what type of layout to to use and they made the descision lightly at the time that it wont be a big deal to just lump the skills randomly around like skittles and its already coded and dont want to rework it again.

Heres hoping they can at least seperate some of the skills even more or have the end goal good ones show up numerous times diwn various paths, but once you select it down a certain path it becomes grey in another to avoid OPness. That way they can give us more linear breakdowns of the trees allowing us to to down our own paths.

Edited by l33tworks, 25 April 2017 - 07:30 PM.

[Devils Advocate]

First off, 250 people voting on a poll on a forum isn't enough noise to qualify for anyone's attention at PGI.

Next, the idea behind making you click on stuff you don't need is that you're paying more skill points to get increased benefits around a central theme. Like going from 7.5% to 10.5% range requires investing in laser duration reduction and ballistic stuff. You're supposed to be making a sacrifice if you're dedicating yourself to min-maxing. When it comes to, say, mobility, it's more a matter of just not feeling like the individual nodes are worth anything until the end of the tree. When it comes to sensors it's more about how a handful of those nodes are absurdly overpowered relative to all of the other normal nodes so it feels like I'm stacking up a bunch of sensor range I'll never need to get radar deprivation which everyone needs. The padding might make people upset but it's in there by design and it makes sense. It makes extra sense when you consider that it's a money sink there to make up for players not being required to buy additional variants.

There are bigger issues here. The sensor tree is wildly "overpowered" relative to everything else, whereas the "firepower" tree is neat but underwhelming such that even if I put 30 points into the thing I don't feel like I'm a whole hell of a lot better with whatever I'm bringing into a fight than if I didn't invest any points. The mobility tree feels like a massive waste of points to get up to some extra speed, which is great, but isn't anything in comparison with aforementioned sensor tree which is giving me advanced zoom, lock retention, deprivation, 360 radar, and seismic sensor for the same amount of points.

I don't think this is the last revision of this tree we're going to see. I'm curious to see where it goes.

[FupDup]

It's strange because PGI actually did a good job of listening when the made the second version of the previous PTS...but after that they completely stopped listening.

[Ruar]

Devils Advocate, on 25 April 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

First off, 250 people voting on a poll on a forum isn't enough noise to qualify for anyone's attention at PGI.

Next, the idea behind making you click on stuff you don't need is that you're paying more skill points to get increased benefits around a central theme. Like going from 7.5% to 10.5% range requires investing in laser duration reduction and ballistic stuff. You're supposed to be making a sacrifice if you're dedicating yourself to min-maxing. When it comes to, say, mobility, it's more a matter of just not feeling like the individual nodes are worth anything until the end of the tree. When it comes to sensors it's more about how a handful of those nodes are absurdly overpowered relative to all of the other normal nodes so it feels like I'm stacking up a bunch of sensor range I'll never need to get radar deprivation which everyone needs. The padding might make people upset but it's in there by design and it makes sense. It makes extra sense when you consider that it's a money sink there to make up for players not being required to buy additional variants.

There are bigger issues here. The sensor tree is wildly "overpowered" relative to everything else, whereas the "firepower" tree is neat but underwhelming such that even if I put 30 points into the thing I don't feel like I'm a whole hell of a lot better with whatever I'm bringing into a fight than if I didn't invest any points. The mobility tree feels like a massive waste of points to get up to some extra speed, which is great, but isn't anything in comparison with aforementioned sensor tree which is giving me advanced zoom, lock retention, deprivation, 360 radar, and seismic sensor for the same amount of points.

I don't think this is the last revision of this tree we're going to see. I'm curious to see where it goes.

But it doesn't make sense.

If they want people to spend 20 points to get radar deprivation then make a linear branch that costs 20 points to complete. Then sensor range can be a five point branch.

The fact they have all these skills interwoven makes it very difficult to balance properly. Your point about the difference in the weapon and sensor tree could easily be remedied with linear branches having unique costs.

They are making a massive mistake with the current version of the tree and if it goes live it will be tweaked and adjusted until they give up and make a linear design in the end. In the meantime they are going to drive people away because no one wants to spend points on unwanted nodes or navigate the complex system.

[BearFlag]

I dunno. I'm usually a sharp critic, but I appreciate that they're plugging away at it.

It looks like they've put in good effort, in a good direction for those module-swappers with 200 mechs and no CBills. (I'm the reverse, 50 mechs and a ton of money, XP, GXP and modules).

The notes did say that most changes visible in this PTS would be seen in the economy and refund.

But, I too, hope for fewer nodes, more linear, no boating advantage and real specialization possibilities.The skill tree also seems like a good opportunity to integrate roles. Have a tier with specialization nodes. Which nodes depends on what role selected. Role respec expensive.

[AngrySpartan]

Devils Advocate, on 25 April 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

First off, 250 people voting on a poll on a forum isn't enough noise to qualify for anyone's attention at PGI.
I don't think this is the last revision of this tree we're going to see. I'm curious to see where it goes.

That's more than I ever seen in any pole on the PTS. And the forum topic I refer to was one of the most popular (if not the most) on the last PTS. If that's not going to make a difference to PGI, than whats the point of PTS?

Players were able to delay STree for a month and PGI was able to kinda fix refund. Making PGi to fix core design flaws is certainly possible if player reaction will be the same as before.

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

Fox the Apprentice, on 25 April 2017 - 03:55 PM, said:

They delayed the skill tree because they were listening, but it seems they (unfortunately) only looked at the refund part of the skill tree. No other part was really changed.

I really don't want it to be delayed again, but it'd be nice to have something more like Solahma suggested.

the Skill Maze was a dumpster fire and I knew as soon as they announced it coming back so soon it was still going to be a dumpster fire... its here & yes it is still a dumpster fire that does NOTHING to fix what made it a dumpster fire from the start. The refund part was quite literally the very least important thing that was wrong with it, therefore that is the only PGI focused on and they still made it a confusing mess.

[l33tworks]

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 26 April 2017 - 01:49 AM, said:

the Skill Maze was a dumpster fire and I knew as soon as they announced it coming back so soon it was still going to be a dumpster fire... its here & yes it is still a dumpster fire that does NOTHING to fix what made it a dumpster fire from the start. The refund part was quite literally the very least important thing that was wrong with it, therefore that is the only PGI focused on and they still made it a confusing mess.

I completely agree but many of us have beaten this to death and given up. Ive said the same thing many many times about why a linear system is better for the game in every aapect imaginable including all the supposed problems critics raise with it.

[AngrySpartan]

l33tworks, on 26 April 2017 - 04:18 AM, said:

I completely agree but many of us have beaten this to death and given up. Ive said the same thing many many times about why a linear system is better for the game in every aapect imaginable including all the supposed problems critics raise with it.

More linear system, tier-based system, Witcher 3 style tree, Solahma's proposal and so on. Any of those suggestions are better that PGI' spiderweb mess in one way or another. Yet somehow developers still fail to awknoledge that their initial concept is a flop.

I have no idea where this inability to recognize their own fails and resistanse to good ideas come from, but being loud enough to be listened to is the only thing we can do right now as a players. It resulted in kinda fixed refund part of STree afterall, maybe it will result in core mechanicks being fixed as well.

[Ruar]

AngrySpartan, on 26 April 2017 - 04:31 AM, said:

More linear system, tier-based system, Witcher 3 style tree, Solahma's proposal and so on. Any of those suggestions are better that PGI' spiderweb mess in one way or another. Yet somehow developers still fail to awknoledge that their initial concept is a flop.

I have no idea where this inability to recognize their own fails and resistanse to good ideas come from, but being loud enough to be listened to is the only thing we can do right now as a players. It resulted in kinda fixed refund part of STree afterall, maybe it will result in core mechanicks being fixed as well.

Be loud and then cancel pre-orders and stop buying if they don't fix the tree design. The tree is not fun to use and I can't see people sitting there clicking and clicking and clicking on mech after mech. Want to swap out those long range weapons for brawling? Click, click, click.

I've read a bunch of the threads since they put up this new PTS and only one person has actually said anything positive about the skill tree design. One. Everyone else is against the current design. I'm simply amazed PGI can't admit they've made a mistake on this and actually fix it.

[Dee Eight]

AngrySpartan, on 25 April 2017 - 11:49 PM, said:

That's more than I ever seen in any pole on the PTS. And the forum topic I refer to was one of the most popular (if not the most) on the last PTS. If that's not going to make a difference to PGI, than whats the point of PTS?

Players were able to delay STree for a month and PGI was able to kinda fix refund. Making PGi to fix core design flaws is certainly possible if player reaction will be the same as before.

Yes but popular on a PTS means little when only a relative handful even actually PLAY on the PTS's. When you wait 5 mins for a 4x4 game and its 15 seconds on the live server for a 12x12...you get a real sense that few are bothering with actively playing on a PTS. I got three games in an hour lastnight on the PTS. The games themselves totaled 9 minutes of play. The rest was spent waiting.

Ruar, on 26 April 2017 - 08:18 AM, said:

I've read a bunch of the threads since they put up this new PTS and only one person has actually said anything positive about the skill tree design. One. Everyone else is against the current design. I'm simply amazed PGI can't admit they've made a mistake on this and actually fix it.

And yet when they announced in march they were postponing again... hundreds complained about another delay and to complain about all the whiners who ruined yet another new feature PGI has tried to implement to actually improve the game for the MAJORITY of the player base.

[Ruar]

Dee Eight, on 26 April 2017 - 09:52 AM, said:

And yet when they announced in march they were postponing again... hundreds complained about another delay and to complain about all the whiners who ruined yet another new feature PGI has tried to implement to actually improve the game for the MAJORITY of the player base.

So the "give us anything even if it's bad" crowd somehow makes more sense than the "we want the skill tree but it needs to make sense" crowd.

Yep, logic.

[AngrySpartan]

Dee Eight, on 26 April 2017 - 09:52 AM, said:

Yes but popular on a PTS means little when only a relative handful even actually PLAY on the PTS's. When you wait 5 mins for a 4x4 game and its 15 seconds on the live server for a 12x12...you get a real sense that few are bothering with actively playing on a PTS. I got three games in an hour lastnight on the PTS. The games themselves totaled 9 minutes of play. The rest was spent waiting.

The vocal majority of players who actually participated in PTS are the core players. It doesn't make sense for a random FTP guy to install 18Gb client if he is not dedicated to the game a bit, does it?

Those players may present a half or a quarter or even lower portion of the player base, yet they also play a lot more than a random FTP players. They play regularly and in total, I assume, they spend more time online than the rest of the playerbase. They also support the game with their money regularly!

Random FTP guys come in and go away, core audience stays because they enjoy Battletech, mechwarrior, MWO, whatever. This is the audience PGI should listen to if they want this game to last.

Dee Eight, on 26 April 2017 - 09:52 AM, said:

And yet when they announced in march they were postponing again... hundreds complained about another delay and to complain about all the whiners who ruined yet another new feature PGI has tried to implement to actually improve the game for the MAJORITY of the player base.

I'll put it that way (nothing personal of course, just a metaphor):
Imajine you are waiting for a steak in a restaurant for a while (since dec. 3rd when STree was announced), and a waiter finally brings your steak - piece of raw meat spilling with blood, uncooked at all. And then you understand that this meat is also rotten from the inside.

Will you eat it? Hell, no, best case for a restaurant - you'll ask for another steak (I'll leave the worst case for your imagination).

Edited by AngrySpartan, 26 April 2017 - 10:58 AM.