188 replies to this topic

[Chados]

I've been here since June 2015. And I'm a whale. No, I won't leave. The skill tree is not a bad system, the payoff you get just isn't worth the investments you have to make. Maxing trees ought to get you more than you get.

I messed around with my beloved Catapults in the Academy tonight, running gauntlets and shooting ranges. And it's left me with a couple observations. First, the main Catapult nerf appears to be in overall speed. It averages a loss of about 6kph. I don't like it but I can live with it. They don't seem to have lost much agility. They've still got good torso twist and rates, they always did.

It costs a third of your SP allotment to max the missile tree in Firepower. And the per missile results of this are negligible, a less than a tenth of a percent in per missile heat gen, for example. Come on, PGI. For a 30 point investment that's the best we can do? Artemis works great but the best you're going to get in spread is 5% and that is chintzy. If I'm dropping 30 points in that part of the tree, AND giving up a ton per launcher for Artemis, my missiles ought to be grouping tighter than third graders on cupcakes and speedy as Clanner PPCs.

Max out the sensor tree and you get 400% 360 target retention. That's nice. But only 15% to target decay? Look, I know the module was about that. But look at what you have to give up to get there. Instead of slapping in a module and having quirks like Catapults had last summer before the big nerf, you have to contend with lots of nerfs because they nerfed the chassis again before the test started. Put quirks back to June 2016 levels and okay, I can deal with redirecting skill points. This just isn't well planned out, allocation of resources wise. The tools are there. They're just not user friendly.

Edited by Chados, 27 April 2017 - 04:02 PM.

[Ruar]

Chados, on 27 April 2017 - 04:00 PM, said:

I've been here since June 2015. And I'm a whale. No, I won't leave. The skill tree is not a bad system, the payoff you get just isn't worth the investments you have to make. Maxing trees ought to get you more than you get.

I messed around with my beloved Catapults in the Academy tonight, running gauntlets and shooting ranges. And it's left me with a couple observations. First, the main Catapult nerf appears to be in overall speed. It averages a loss of about 6kph. I don't like it but I can live with it. They don't seem to have lost much agility. They've still got good torso twist and rates, they always did.

It costs a third of your SP allotment to max the missile tree in Firepower. And the per missile results of this are negligible, a less than a tenth of a percent in per missile heat gen, for example. Come on, PGI. For a 30 point investment that's the best we can do? Artemis works great but the best you're going to get in spread is 5% and that is chintzy. If I'm dropping 30 points in that part of the tree, AND giving up a ton per launcher for Artemis, my missiles ought to be grouping tighter than third graders on cupcakes and speedy as Clanner PPCs.

Max out the sensor tree and you get 400% 360 target retention. That's nice. But only 15% to target decay? Look, I know the module was about that. But look at what you have to give up to get there. Instead of slapping in a module and having quirks like Catapults had last summer before the big nerf, you have to contend with lots of nerfs because they nerfed the chassis again before the test started. Put quirks back to June 2016 levels and okay, I can deal with redirecting skill points. This just isn't well planned out, allocation of resources wise. The tools are there. They're just not user friendly.

6kph... the amount from speed tweak?

[Oddmund]

Over 4 years and if they do the refund the way it is now and push the skill tree thru i will be done with this game and will not be buying mechwarrior 5 or play any other PGI game for that matter..

Edited by dankith, 27 April 2017 - 04:30 PM.

[Cato Phoenix]

Since I bought my founders pack.

I think the layout of the tree is terrible.

I prob won't quit. I'll prob quit playing bad mechs that have fun builds and just run night gyrs. I'm sure the potato will only increase on my teams.

[oldradagast]

Arianrhod, on 27 April 2017 - 03:49 PM, said:

The refund was the biggest issue in the last PTS forum. It was the single most complained about thing. They fixed it. In my opinion, they fixed it completely, although I can understand why some elite players are upset about the GSP thing—I suggest that PGI just implement an option to receive the refund either in GSP or c-bills.

The maze is flawed, but PGI has made signficant improvements in terms of the maze actually being useful in making players prioritize what they want to take or not.

The refund was one of many issues. PGI simply rephrased the complaints to ignore 90% of them and pretend the refund was the only issue. It wasn't - go back and read what people wrote. They blasted the skill maze AND the idiotic refund policy. Fixing one of them doesn't fix both.

PGI has done NOTHING of note to improve the skill maze. They have not "made significant improvements." It is just as convoluted, stupidly designed, and riddled with grind, false choices, dead skills, and gated skills as it was before. The entire skill maze system as presented is a dumpster fire of bad game design; shuffling a few skills around or tweaking a few values does not change that fact.

Finally, PGI has demonstrated a horrible track record regarding immediately addressing balance concerns correctly in the game; it will be no different after the skill maze goes live and kills off about 3/4's of the mechs in the game, with IS mechs basically being unplayable. If anything, their stubborn insistence on this horrible system indicates that this IS what they want - lots of dead mechs and frustrated players - in the stupid hopes we all buy premium time or the next mech pack where maybe the mechs won't be nerfed.

Edited by oldradagast, 27 April 2017 - 04:57 PM.

[ForceUser]

Arianrhod, on 27 April 2017 - 03:49 PM, said:

Furthermore the ECM nerf is completely unwarranted and I might just as well not take ECM and put the nodes into getting the radar dep.

FYI the only thing they changed on the ECM is Sensor Scrambling which reduces the range at which an enemy can gain a sensor lock on you.

On live it's 25% max sensor range. On PTS it's set to 70%. With the two ECM nodes it goes down to 25%, same as what it is on live. That means if you take the two nodes (going to be available anyways if you go for radar dep) ECM will function identically to how it functions currently. The sensor tree as a whole is very attractive if you run any kind of ECM / sniper build anyways and Radar Dep is a good couple of skills to pick up. You will also be dipping into sensors if you want Seismic or 360 target lock.

[Its my first day]

Been playing a few months on and off, wont quit.

The current skill system is a mess, the tree looks like an improvement, though its a bit of a mess, too. But there are things I like about it, such as that you're able to get incremental gains, and not having to buy lots of variants unless you want to. It seems they're moving from a system with long time to pay off to one with shorter payoffs, and thats fine with me, seems like a lot less of a grind, or it at least makes the grind better as you can see some results. I do think that the more direct alternate skill tree that a user made up was more what they should go for, though.

Eventually, maybe the whole thing could morph into something really cool where they have specialized trees for mechs, maybe a pilot tree, etc.

Personally, I think a lot of whats upsetting people is that the older/current system is a grind, and the people who ground through it don't like that they put work into something going thats going away, and I don't blame them for that. But from my perspective it looks to be a improvement. Maybe a system paying off or rewarding members who've put a lot of time and/or effort into the game with stuff like mechs, premium time or such would help settle things down some.

[Cy Mitchell]

I played open Beta in 2012 and then left for almost 4 years. I returned in December of 2015 and played some CW on a friends abandoned account and then started playing my own account again in January 2016.

I am more likely to leave if the Skill Tree does not go LIVE. I am tired of the delayed and cancelled features. I have not played since January of this year except to test on PTS. However, I have continued to pre-order Mechs in preparation for my return. If the Skill Tree were to meet the same fate as other things tested on PTS then I would probably cancel my pre-orders and stop playing completely.

[Pr8Dator2]

Playing for 5 years and no, I like the new skill tree.

[Naaaaak]

CouchDweller, on 27 April 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

I feel like PGI is doing a good job at addressing and making sure progress wont be lost when transferred over.

They are screwing me out of 500 million C-Bills worth of modules. Inventing GSP "tokens" and refunding me in more than I will ever need is destroying my progress.

On the live server now, I can swap out modules for free and retain all mech XP and pilot skills. On the PTS there is an XP "progress sink" just to experiment and undo a change. Costing anything to respec, even 400 XP per node, is fundamentally against the build and experiment pillar of this game.

[Naduk]

I've been playing since FF closed beta
I'm very happy with the skill tree and surrounding changes like engine decouple
It's by no means perfect but it's better than what we got and pgi will improve it over time

However
I'm fraking pissed with the refund system and the unnecessary SP currency nonsense

I won't leave mwo
It's not that big a deal
I'll just liquidate my modules before the refund

[Cy Mitchell]

Source Mystic, on 27 April 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

Everyone has the right to stay or go I will not support a game in money or time that vastly and repeatedly ignores the majority of the community. It Amazes me that people will stay even if they hate the changes rather than go play another game. If that is the case pgi has found the perfect community that will not push back. The player and game developer deserve each other.

Where is this majority of the community you are speaking of? Just because some people make a lot of noise does not make them the majority. A lot of us are tired of nothing new coming to the game. Look at this thread that you created. Most of the people are going to keep playing. Most are not upset with the Skill Tree. A lot of us think it is not perfect and can be improved. I am sure it will be improved over time. If they fulfill their promise and allow people who want C-Bills instead of GSP to get it then there will be even more people receptive to it.

If you were hoping for evidence pointing to a mass exodus then I think you are going to be disappointed.

Edited by Rampage, 27 April 2017 - 08:34 PM.

[Jubblator]

No, The promise of not having to level 3 mech variants instead of only the one i like is what brought me BACK to MWO, so no i will be playing the heck out of the skill tree =D

[Ruar]

Rampage, on 27 April 2017 - 08:34 PM, said:

Where is this majority of the community you are speaking of? Just because some people make a lot of noise does not make them the majority. A lot of us are tired of nothing new coming to the game. Look at this thread that you created. Most of the people are going to keep playing. Most are not upset with the Skill Tree. A lot of us think it is not perfect and can be improved. I am sure it will be improved over time. If they fulfill their promise and allow people who want C-Bills instead of GSP to get it then there will be even more people receptive to it.

If you were hoping for evidence pointing to a mass exodus then I think you are going to be disappointed.

Devil's advocate-

Let's assume that the people posting on the forums are a sample of the people who play the game. Generally the forum goers are the people more interested and invested in the game from what I've seen over the past 20+ years of being involved in online gaming. So it's not a completely accurate representation, but you do get casuals and elites alike that post on the forums.

If you look at this thread there is a slight majority of people who are accepting of the skill tree, generally under the auspice that it's better to have a bad change than to wait for a better change later.

There is a minority that wants to see the tree improved by the time it's released. All of these? Most of these? don't say anything about delaying the tree for another test but instead simply want the nodes to be organized better for release.

Then you have a small fragment that hate everything to do with the skill tree and want none of it at all. I'm certain those people are going to be disappointed because judging the reaction on the forums I can't see the skill tree being delayed again.

Of these groups the fragment and a section of the minority are displeased enough to leave the game, or consider leaving the game. And if we combine this with the idea that the forum is a representation of the players then we can assume there is a chunk of the population that is going to be upset enough about the change to leave.

The question then becomes, why are they leaving? The forum goers tend to be the more hardcore (as discussed earlier) so the ones leaving are probably leaving because the change doesn't fit their rigid concept of how the game should function. Probably not the same reason most of the other people will leave.

I believe the most dropped players will be a result of the confusion and complexity of the tree itself. Gamers know, and expect, change to happen. We've all seen it happen time and time again. However we also expect that change to make sense and be something better.

The skill tree concept is absolutely better than what is on live where everyone just spends time grinding out exp to buy the same stat upgrades to then be on equal ground. They would have been so much better off just making those bonuses free or you get them from simply playing X number of matches and just had the exp be used for skills and modules. The skill tree is a huge step forward for the game.

Except it's just so poorly designed that it's going to make people not want to play. And the saddest part of all is the solution has been talked about, illustrated, and even turned into video, but it keeps being ignored. Which tells me the devs would rather lose players, and revenue, than implement a change the players say will make the game better.


Which is why I'm probably done with the game when they announce the skill tree on test is going to go live as is. It shows me that devs won't put their customers first and I'm really tired of playing games where I feel marginalized by the very people I'm handing money to each month. Well, that and I might have a little bit of OCD which makes things like tangled web trees incredibly frustrating.

Hopefully they fix their mistake before they lose too many people, but given the track record talked about on the forums it seems I should have doubts that will happen.

Edited by Ruar, 27 April 2017 - 09:39 PM.

[chucklesMuch]

Been playing more than a year and I think less than two.

Not planning on quitting, but if this drops in May, I'll play javelins for a bit... and if the Mobility isn't fun for faster mechs or makes lighter faster mechs less useful (or no fun) then I will probably take a little break till the new tech drops.

Have javelin and some civil war pre orders...

[Gemanii]

been playing since open beta launch i was playing when founder packs were still offered . Yes i will leave game if skill trees drop in current state. the skill trees are set up now to frustrate and make game less fun and less about personal choices and playing game way you want and hey this is what we think you should do and you have too. if they want the skill trees to replace modules and make things easier the cbill cost should be removed and the 91 active cap should be raised some or removed. some mechs are jacks of all master of none so hey the want a lot of those points to compete and hey in the lore clan mechs are super flexible and switch load outs easy. the skill system needs work there attempts are a good starting point but it needs a lot of work otherwise it really will have alot of players running away.

[Chound]

Bud Crue, on 27 April 2017 - 11:22 AM, said:

2 year on this account plus an initial foray in late 2013.

No I will not leave MWO after the skills tree drops.
I'll just shelve all my low tier IS mechs and finally abandon the idiocy that is being an IS loyalist, buy a Hunchback IIc, or maybe a Nova, along with a Night Gyr and maybe a Mad IIC and go merc (just like everyone else appear to already have).

That's what PGI calls encouraging player choice and increasing mech diversity, and who am I to argue? I shall simply embrace the game that they appear to want us to play: "Metamechs Online"

Edit: oh...and the wallet will remain closed until my Quickdraws are useful beyond running 3 stupid lpls.

there is still quickplay or group drops with people that you know. Faction Play has some popularity issues at the moment

[Zuesacoatl]

Source Mystic, on 27 April 2017 - 11:05 AM, said:

Basically this is real simple I want to know how long you have played mwo and if you will be leaving if the skill tree goes live. That is all.

I feel pgi should see what they are doing and how it will effect them in a concrete way namely how many players they will loose if the ignore their community.

I have been playing almost 3 years and I will be walking away from mwo if this skill tree goes though.

I have been here since 2011, I am a founder, and have spent well over $2250 on the game, and will spend as family and bills allow.

The tree is not perfect, but it is better than anything we have had, and I have been waiting for a change like this that offers more flexible choices and allows me to build my way, sure I may have to take some nodes I do not want, but I understand the reasoning behind the give and take. I think that most people in my generation do, the youngins from this generation want it their way, and they want it now.

I will not leave the game, but I do not play as often since the first time they cancelled the skill tree, and if they cancel it again, I will play even less.

Source Mystic, on 27 April 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

Everyone has the right to stay or go I will not support a game in money or time that vastly and repeatedly ignores the majority of the community. It Amazes me that people will stay even if they hate the changes rather than go play another game. If that is the case pgi has found the perfect community that will not push back. The player and game developer deserve each other.

So the thread is not going your way, so you resort to insults at the end of your post...Bravo, you are a shining example of the current what do I get generation.

oldradagast, on 27 April 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

I strongly disagree with that statement. if they cared about player feedback, they would have actually fixed the serious problems with the skill maze - problems we've been telling them about for months now. Instead, they just offer us a bigger refund on the trash they are serving and call it a day.

they listened to player feedback. There was quite a few of us who like the skill tree for the most part, so they listened. Just because they do not listen directly to you does not mean they do not listen to player feedback. Another example of the current generations thought process of what do I get out of it.

Naaaaak, on 27 April 2017 - 07:18 PM, said:

They are screwing me out of 500 million C-Bills worth of modules. Inventing GSP "tokens" and refunding me in more than I will ever need is destroying my progress.

On the live server now, I can swap out modules for free and retain all mech XP and pilot skills. On the PTS there is an XP "progress sink" just to experiment and undo a change. Costing anything to respec, even 400 XP per node, is fundamentally against the build and experiment pillar of this game.

You are not getting screwed. They are giving you a currenency that fulfills the premise of when you spent those cbills. When you bought the modules pre 2017, you did so with the thought process of increasing range, finding hidden mechs, or derping the radar. They are giving you currency to support the spirit of those purchases.

Asking for a full c-bill refund is like going to a burger joint, buying a burger, eating it, and then coming back years later when they have changed their menu a bit and have offered you a free burger even though you spent that money years ago, you want compensation because you ate the burger, but now that burgers are free on the menu, you want your money back to buy fries and a coke....

[DGTLDaemon]

Been playing since early 2016, clocked over 1300 hours on my Steam counter. Already taking a long break from the game due to the latest developments. If that mess of a skill tree + engine desync goes live, I'll be leaving permanently. It's a simple matter of loss of interest in the game.

Edited by DGTLDaemon, 28 April 2017 - 12:40 AM.

[Outcast1six]

3 years.

Well over $1250 in the game.

No I won't quit.

No I won't play less.

It would be nice if everyone remembered that we're in public TEST and things are bound to change before it hits the live servers.

Am I going to enjoy the skill tree mini game on 290 mechs. Definitely not.