106 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

WHAT!?!?!?!

Yes. We'll see different mechanics, well see a meta shift of some form or another. Big whoop.

-We'll still almost certainly have a pronounced Meta Imbalance
-Bad robots probably still bad, good ones, probably still good (though you know things like the engine desyncs will have some impact on most clan heavies not named Night Gyr).
-Same people will still be screaming the sky is falling and threatening to leave.
-Same People will still be white knighting
-The same trickle of players will get fed up and leave, and the same trickle of new blood will continue
-And the vast majority will continue playing, regardless, and just wanting to see new stuff added.

So can we please stop with the whole "South will rise again", "gonna Riot" idiotic hyperbole?

Same people have been second guessing, and saying the game is going to die for nearly 5 years now. Sure, keep saying it long enough, someday you'll be right. Congrats on that.

[FupDup]

If it doesn't really change much in the grand scheme of things, maybe that should be a sign that it could use some more work instead of being immediately pushed to live and seldom touched again like most of the other things in this game.

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 April 2017 - 11:58 AM, said:

WHAT!?!?!?!

Yes. We'll see different mechanics, well see a meta shift of some form or another. Big whoop.

-We'll still almost certainly have a pronounced Meta Imbalance
-Bad robots probably still bad, good ones, probably still good (though you know things like the engine desyncs will have some impact on most clan heavies not named Night Gyr).
-Same people will still be screaming the sky is falling and threatening to leave.
-Same People will still be white knighting
-The same trickle of players will get fed up and leave, and the same trickle of new blood will continue
-And the vast majority will continue playing, regardless, and just wanting to see new stuff added.

So can we please stop with the whole "South will rise again", "gonna Riot" idiotic hyperbole?

Same people have been second guessing, and saying the game is going to die for nearly 5 years now. Sure, keep saying it long enough, someday you'll be right. Congrats on that.

Then why implement it at all if it creates no changes?

In fact, why should PGI possibly do anything with MWO? Seriously, by your logic nothing will change anyway regardless of what happens.

The skill tree change as it currently stands is not going to improve the game but make it less overall enjoyable. Why, in what logic, is that a good idea to move ahead with? What, because it won't render the game unplayable thus it's irrelevant?

The skill tree could improve a lot. I would love to be able to actually make decisions about individual changes and tweaks. If I could change 1% heat cap for 7.5% hill climb, I just might do it. Especially on bigger mechs with better cooling. I would happily shave 1% or 0.5% here and there off weapon and mobility improvements to increase ammo capacity or ballistic velocity or even an extra consumable slot.

The skill tree has some great potential. The current one, you are right, ignores all that and just functions as a sort of flat general nerf, removing Derp, Zoom and Seismic modules and reducing mobility a little and removing weapon cooldown modules and giving everything a small range boost.

That's it. It's a total and complete waste of its potential and just another source of pointless irritation. Why not make it good if they're going to put the time/energy into making it?

[oldradagast]

So, even you - white knight to the bitter end - admit that the as-shown skill maze is a stupid waste that basically changes nothing.

If that's the case - and that's an optimistic assessment - why should it be deployed?

Why should we all have to waste our time slogging through that idiotic, tangled web of false choices, worthless skills, and gated skills to basically fix nothing about the game?

The skill maze, at best, fixes nothing but slaps another layer of needless complexity on top of everything else in the game AND adds a respec cost, which is completely unacceptable in a game like this, where mech experimentation and customization is a huge part of the fun.

At worst, the skill maze and related quirk removal and mobility nerf will basically render a huge number of mechs utterly unplayable. That could very well kill the game, or at least choke the life out of PGI's mech pack strategy, which is all they have going.

So, tell me again why we should deploy this trash to the live server if even you can't find a good reason to do it? You haven't presented a single argument to support the skill tree other than "stuff changes" and "I'm sick of listening to people repeat facts over and over about why the skill maze sucks." Those are not good reasons.

Edited by oldradagast, 28 April 2017 - 12:30 PM.

[C E Dwyer]

If it changes so little, why bother with it at all ?

P.G.I say they need this so the new tech can be ballanced, but I see nothing in it that will make the new tech perform any differently than the old system.

How is this a move forward other than removing one redundant skill (Aim time)

How is it a move forward to force people to take skills like Gyro and hill climb, skills they never ever used ?

I no longer care if it launches or not, I just don't see any benefit it's going to give the game.

It's the same old in a new skin the only major change is decoupling which could be done without the new skill system.

So why is this a needed thing, if it's going to change so little ?

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 28 April 2017 - 12:04 PM, said:

If it doesn't really change much in the grand scheme of things, maybe that should be a sign that it could use some more work instead of being immediately pushed to live and seldom touched again like most of the other things in this game.

Or maybe it's a commentary on the "hold PGI hostage or riot" mentality.....

[Humpday]

I agree.

On a side note for those who have absolutely no idea how software development works in the field. The initial release of software is rarely, if ever, very good upon its release, its either buggy internally(code) or, functionally buggy(broken implementation). Software is a bit recursive in that you have to solve many small problems which in turn return to fix the overlying issue. It'll need to go live to expose its deficiencies due to exposing the software to the masses, then be patched and tweaked along the way. In PTS there is not enough feedback for something of this magnitude.

Its software, if all else fails...

git status
git checkout master
git pull
git revert ${commit}
git push
recompile
release client reversion.

[Shifty McSwift]

Why implement it? Because it is not about changing any of the things the OP points out, it opens up player choice and balances aspects of the previous system in varying ways, or at least attempts to. Replacing a basic skills system with an arguably more advanced one isn't meant to create massive changes beyond the replacement itself.

By itself it won't do a lot to change meta, but accompanied with other changes and further work it may help to open up choices a bit more.

[Humpday]

Besides, ya'll seem to have survived the rest of the craziness that happened to this game over the years...no reason it should be any different.

Just adapt and adjust.

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 April 2017 - 12:34 PM, said:

Or maybe it's a commentary on the "hold PGI hostage or riot" mentality.....

There is no 'or else' when speaking to a company you're paying for a product. That's always part of every single decision they make, or at least it should be. Spoken or unspoken, people pay for what they want and a business that's selling a product is, obviously, aware of that.

People saying 'or I'll riot' are just saying 'or else', because they're upset. There is no difference between 'or I'll riot' and 'I don't like this'. The end value is identical from the business perspective.

However volume does have a value of its own. Just saying 'or else' is of minimal value. Saying 'I'd pay for X instead' or 'I'll take Y in lieu of X if Z condition is there' is very useful.

Ranting adds volume. It's not totally worthless, just not much. Useful feedback on 'I want this' with an explanation of why and the relative merits is far more useful.

PGI has a history of slow response to big problems however. The Skill Tree on the PTS needs a revamp nearly as complete as the new skill tree is of the old one. Why would you want it released terrible and then fixed instead of just put in the general mold of what would be good and then released, likely still with a bunch of fixes?

[Lukoi Banacek]

I always find these threads ironically entertaining.

Complaining about people complaining. Pot, kettle, wanna go to lunch?

Mischief, I didn't realize that your feedback was somehow holding PGI hostage. Apparently, they can't parse through complaints and feedback and make their own business decisions. Are you using explosives, or Doxxing them or something?

[FupDup]

Lukoi Banacek, on 28 April 2017 - 12:49 PM, said:

Mischief, I didn't realize that your feedback was somehow holding PGI hostage. Apparently, they can't parse through complaints and feedback and make their own business decisions. Are you using explosives, or Doxxing them or something?

He's standing over their shoulders and threatening to hit them with a wet towel.

[Cato Phoenix]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 April 2017 - 11:58 AM, said:

WHAT!?!?!?!

Yes. We'll see different mechanics, well see 't we wont see the meta shift in some form or another. Big whoop.

-We'll still almost certainly have a pronounced Meta Imbalance
-Bad robots probably still bad will be worse, good ones, probably okay still good (though you know things like the engine desyncs will have some impact on most clan heavies not named Night Gyr).
-Same Some people will still be screaming the sky is falling and threatening to leave.
- Some will have left.
-Same People will still be white knighting
-The same trickle of players will get fed up and leave, and the same trickle of new blood will continue
-And the vast majority will continue playing in potato mode, regardless, and just wanting to see new stuff added no matter if it is well thought-out content or not.

Some gentle edits.

[Scyther]

I understand your frustration with the delays, Bishop, and that of many players who are simply bored with things as is and want to see some change, any change to give them something new to do in the game.

However I think dismissing people who are pointing out the need for further refinement as 'gonna riot, hold PGI hostage' types is out of line. Some people are reacting that way, true. Others are offering valid, thoughtful, and significant reviews of Skill Tree 2 issues.

Because it is such a hot issue and I thought the actual mechanics needed a side-by-side 'Current Skill Tree vs. Skill Tree 2' comparison, I just spent a half a day getting PTS2 setup and testing the basic ST2 functionality. Write-up is in
https://mwomercs.com...ter-comparison/ .

Feel free to tell me I am holding PGI hostage with that, but I think the issues raised in it are pretty valid.

My dad always used to say "Any job worth doing is worth doing right". Rushing it out while it needs more work isn't going to impress anybody.

Edited by MadBadger, 28 April 2017 - 12:58 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

MadBadger, on 28 April 2017 - 12:57 PM, said:

My dad always used to say "Any job worth doing is worth doing right". Rushing it out while it needs more work isn't going to impress anybody.

Even when PGI does do something right, the same people will just complain, anyhow. Maybe it would be less frustrating if these same worthies could be bothered to write a positive post once in a while... or put their money where their mouth is and actually depart if they are so offended?

Point is primarily a simple one.... Talk is cheap, and that is all most of these same folks will ever do...talk, and keep playing anyhow.

[Humpday]

With how divided this community is on EVERYTHING, its a wonder how PGI makes any decisions at all.

They might as well just flip a coin, either way they're going to irritate 50% of the forum warriors. Meanwhile other other thousands of players are like...whats going on?

[C E Dwyer]

So exactly how does it make the game better ?

There's more choice.

No not really, there is only one correct path, for a fully optimised mech, lots of options means a totally inexperienced player has more chances of making the wrong choice.

You can take lots of Jump jet skills and gimp your sensors, agility, and protection.

Weapon nodes are extra's because the most important are the agility, the sensors and the durability, how many are going to bother with the utility nodes ?

The tree was supposed to cure the major defects in the lack of roles, help balance the game and the new tech.

It does none of that.

All I want is a clear example and to be shown how this new system makes the game better

Humpday, on 28 April 2017 - 01:03 PM, said:

With how divided this community is on EVERYTHING, its a wonder how PGI makes any decisions at all.

They might as well just flip a coin, either way they're going to irritate 50% of the forum warriors. Meanwhile other other thousands of players are like...whats going on?

quoted for truth

[Lukoi Banacek]

FupDup, on 28 April 2017 - 12:52 PM, said:

He's standing over their shoulders and threatening to hit them with a wet towel.

to be fair, those can sting when used properly....even leave a welt!

Bishop Steiner, on 28 April 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

Point is primarily a simple one.... Talk is cheap, and that is all most of these same folks will ever do...talk, and keep playing anyhow.

Says the guys with 45k posts lol. Good stuff.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lukoi Banacek, on 28 April 2017 - 12:49 PM, said:

Mischief, I didn't realize that your feedback was somehow holding PGI hostage. complaints and feedback and make their own business decisions. Are you using explosives, or Doxxing them or something?

probably a lot of things you miss while preening over your own sense of awesomeness. Shocker that.

[Bishop Steiner]

Cathy, on 28 April 2017 - 01:04 PM, said:

There's more choice.

No not really, there is only one correct path, for a fully optimised mech,

this statement alone tells me you really haven't spent much time on the PTS.... because between weight classes and base stats, one size very much does no t fit all, as for instance, on a mech like the Night Gyr poptart, the mobility quirks are realistically of minimal value (not the same as no value, but have minimal impact on it's role efficacy), whereas on a brawler or skirmisher, they are very useful.