98 replies to this topic

[chucklesMuch]

Mobility changes are probably my biggest concern with the current ST proposal... I have enough mechs that I'm sure something will be useful post ST (half clan, half IS and as much as I would like to play FP it's not currently very attractive, so faction balance won't effect me as things stand)... but my favourite mechs and play style all involve speed and mobility... if these are all getting neutered going forward, then most concerrned about the fun factor...

[Vxheous]

Shifty McSwift, on 02 May 2017 - 10:20 PM, said:

Another DOOOOOMtm post.

Apparently you don't even really need to know what the changes will be to declare doom either, but either way you certainly don't need any real qualifications for it.



To this idea, why? Were you planning on fully speccing out mechs before you even try running them without skills? Before even testing their new baseline stats? That sounds like a self inflicted problem right there.

"PGI please fix my addiction to buying paint colors, you are ruining my family by making new colors that I am forced to buy, stealing food from my kids table."

One more time, here are the changes to accel/decel and fixed turn rates of the mechs coming next patch:
https://static.mwome...Final%20PTS.pdf
https://static.mwome...Final%20PTS.pdf

Deathlike's title of the thread is correct, what you're not paying attention to will hurt you.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 02 May 2017 - 10:28 PM.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 02 May 2017 - 10:27 PM, said:

One more time, here are the changes to accel/decel and fixed turn rates of the mechs coming next patch:
https://static.mwome...Final%20PTS.pdf
https://static.mwome...Final%20PTS.pdf

Deathlike's title of the thread is correct, what you're not paying attention to will hurt you.

I have been paying attention to and been talking about the entire time while idiots are arguing over "Cost, Respecs, & Refunds" which is irrelevant is the scope of how badly the game is about to be mangled!!!!!!

[Shifty McSwift]

The "don't really need to know" wasn't directed at any one person in particular, just at the kind of face level reactions people can seem to have and post on without really investigating further themselves.

The doom portion was pointed at the title, again, leading to the idea you need no real qualifications to declare or suggest that "X change will result in Y money lost" for PGI.

[Vxheous]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 02 May 2017 - 10:31 PM, said:

I have been paying attention to and been talking about the entire time while idiots are arguing over "Cost, Respecs, & Refunds" which is irrelevant is the scope of how badly the game is about to be mangled!!!!!!

This is not addressed to you . Most everyone that is arguing over the "Cost, Respecs, & Refunds" are aware of how atrocious the rest of the skill tree/desync idea is, but I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that PGI is going to ram it down our throats regardless, which is why most of my efforts have been aimed at minimizing the loss to my account.

[Karl Streiger]

Requiemking, on 02 May 2017 - 08:01 PM, said:

Oh, we are well aware for what the Rescale did for Lights. It was the excuse for PGI to bludgeon all but two Lights into near uselessness, all because the Assault potato faction can't be bothered to learn to aim.

Potato Assault here - i hate the decoupling - and a light with or without decoupling is only a problem when he get close.
No mobility nerf or buff will change that. Give me a light give me a AC20 and give me 300m and there shouldn't be any problem in hitting the guy - at close ranges its a lottery either by HSR or because you only have split seconds to aim (more a automatic process)

But I can tell you what decoupling would cause. It will raise frustration, its like fighting a Locust with a Banshee... did you know that a Locust need to stand ~50m before the Banshee and no weapon of that assault can hurt you - i had no heat problems the Loscust was overheated and all i did need was to fire an Alpha... until the torso pitch stopped 1m above the Locust.

The desync will do exact the same- were a good suprise maneuver today can bring you around to bring your weapons to bear (unless your are in a Banshee fighting a Locust) - ok its still the HSR lottery but at least i have the feeling i can shoot that guy. with a reduced turn rate all i can do is to hit override and kill ants and plants in the ground and die by suicide overheating just to let that bugger not get the kill

the rescale shafted a couple of my favourite builds either - for example the Zeus - was nice and smooth to play with its small size before the rescale... a coffin on two legs now.


one of my somehow favourites is the Gargoyle - while the quirk list show that it would be more mobile as a TimberWolf - this is good and need to stay. I don't understand the whole process? There ar >300 Mech Variants in this game. You want to tell me that PGI want to micromanage each mech? Its simpler to build the Tower of Babylon.
Why don't they use a more generic solution - aka ROLL System - you know the stuff they have advertised in Dev Blot 4???

[Tarogato]

Funzo, on 02 May 2017 - 04:21 PM, said:

Play data will also work in lieu of peer review. No one says this will be perfect out of the gate. PGI has stated that EVERY skill tree stat and percentage can be adjusted by them to balance each mech and variant as needed. Do I believe the initial implementation of the above listed items being perfect out of the gate? No. I do believe that PGI is just as interested in the play data and balance as well and will continue to adjust after these changes go live.

Au contraire. PGI (Russ, I believe) said straight up that they will not and can not adjust skill trees per mech. Right now they have 8 trees. One for each weight class, for each Clan and IS. It is too much work for them to go into any more detail than that. There will be no tuning. If anything, mechs could have different SP caps, but PGI hasn't even faintly suggested that they've considered that option.

[The Jerol]

Shifty McSwift, on 02 May 2017 - 10:20 PM, said:

Another DOOOOOMtm post.

To this idea, why? Were you planning on fully speccing out mechs before you even try running them without skills? Before even testing their new baseline stats? That sounds like a self inflicted problem right there.

So even though I have a mech mastered, your solution is to have me (and everyone else evidently) run the mech without skills and conduct "testing"? Will there be math involved?

I thought the 91 clicks was bad enough. Sheesh.

Anyway, I was referring to playing around with a finished build -- re-specs for weapon or play style changes. You know, tinkering -- not correcting mistakes. Mistakes are on me... I agree.


TJ

[Shifty McSwift]

The Jerol, on 02 May 2017 - 10:46 PM, said:

So even though I have a mech mastered, your solution is to have me (and everyone else evidently) run the mech without skills and conduct "testing"? Will there be math involved?

I thought the 91 clicks was bad enough. Sheesh.

Anyway, I was referring to playing around with a finished build -- re-specs for weapon or play style changes. You know, tinkering -- not correcting mistakes. Mistakes are on me... I agree.


TJ

:\

The process could be as simple as doing your mechs loadout, then going into the training grounds for a bit of mucking about and asking yourself, "now what does this thing need?"...

[Shifty McSwift]

There is probably a big discussion to be had about size to armor rates and speed etc in general. Not just in terms of what it should be but what works best for the game MWO and the kind of combat flow/style that it is.

There are issues with tiny targets moving fast and hit registration it seems so doing something to minimise how it effects players is good right? (obvious best solution is to "fix" it, but its never that simple). There is also the ongoing and non "fixable" (unless you force regional play) idea that you have a big potential variation in ping rates too, in a reasonable scale from 1-250.

So with that in mind, plus the notion we can only move our cursors as fast as our mech will let us, do we really want tiny, incredibly fast targets, that mostly survive due to exploiting the weaknesses of the system, to be a normal commonly occurring thing?

[Vxheous]

Shifty McSwift, on 02 May 2017 - 10:57 PM, said:

There is probably a big discussion to be had about size to armor rates and speed etc in general. Not just in terms of what it should be but what works best for the game MWO and the kind of combat flow/style that it is.

There are issues with tiny targets moving fast and hit registration it seems so doing something to minimise how it effects players is good right? (obvious best solution is to "fix" it, but its never that simple). There is also the ongoing and non "fixable" (unless you force regional play) idea that you have a big potential variation in ping rates too, in a reasonable scale from 1-250.

So with that in mind, plus the notion we can only move our cursors as fast as our mech will let us, do we really want tiny, incredibly fast targets, that mostly survive due to exploiting the weaknesses of the system, to be a normal commonly occurring thing?

HSR is actually quite good nowadays, most times where people complain about shooting a light mech and not doing the damage they think they should, it's usually them missing (shooting between arm and torso, between legs, etc). There's even been videos from people thinking HSR robbed them, only to be pointed out that if they look closely, their shots were missing, or hitting something that they didn't notice (I shot him in the CT, and he didn't die, but looking closely, the shot hit ST and ST paper doll of light mech clearly takes proper damage).

If anything, the skilled light pilot is taking advantage of the fact that the bulk of the player population can't actually track a fast moving target well enough to consistently land shots, so they accel/decel dance in front of you.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 02 May 2017 - 11:04 PM.

[Appogee]

It's remarkable to me that so many people believe that PGI will promptly address balance issues after the new skill tree nukes rips off the former band-aids and destroys the existing balance.

Some of these people seem to be long term players. Surely they have observed how long it takes PGI to address balance and chassis-specific issues?

AnTi90d, on 02 May 2017 - 06:53 PM, said:

Hah.. I do find it amusing that the same few Yes-Men jump at the opportunity to defend PGI, the IS Nerfening V2 and the Skill Maze Abomination at a moment's notice. Don't these White Knights ever take time out of their day to play the game that they profess to love so much?

Possibly not. I observe that several still aren't in Tier 1 after all this time, even though the PSR system is so weighted to upward movement.

Edited by Appogee, 02 May 2017 - 11:07 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Appogee, on 02 May 2017 - 11:03 PM, said:

Apparently not. That is why they still haven't made it to Tier 1 despite the PSR system being so weighted to upward movement.

A perfect example

THIS is the reason PGI invented the PSR not because it was a good idea (considering we had ELO - it was a bad decision)
but to divide the player base even further.


an before you ask - i don't play that ******* game on any regular basis

Edited by Karl Streiger, 02 May 2017 - 11:06 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 02 May 2017 - 04:03 PM, said:

I haven't gotten quite enough time until recently to look over stuff, particularly the recent PDF quirk list (real life stuff to attend to first). I felt like I've had to reexplain certain things about how Engine Desync work and what it isn't... and while I'd rather not repeat everything... I'm going to bring out obvious issues that were in the PTS that probably didn't get enough attention.

More importantly though, I don't even know what telemetry is telling PGI... whether it be the massive reduction in use of most upscaled Lights or the semi-random nerfing of quirks, particularly on the IS side in compensation of the upcoming skill tree, but it's certainly seemingly having no rhyme or reason.

To break it down, this will be discussed in 3 parts:

1) Engine Desync - Did you really do that?

2) Telemetry - Is there a reason that the IS needs to be screwed even more?

3) Balance - Do I need a 20-sided dice for this?


1) Engine Desync - So a KDK-3, Atlas, and King Crab walk into a bar have the same agility...

I like being a numbers guy... at least comparing X stat on Y mech to another... because you know... curiosity and all that fun stuff. While I'm sure the title is a dead giveaway to an obvious blunder or intentional design... I felt like the fundamental idea of what engine desync was not understood.

The point of it is to make sure that mechs that needed more agility, but wouldn't normally gain it due to having too small an engine cap to get it. In some cases, mechs that were too fast yet were not Lights would have a slight nerf. Of course all of this would be still be a case by case basis.

One of the most notable changes is actually something we commonly see in many matches... the Hunchback-IIC.

It's agility is actually equivalent to a Highlander-IIC (also equivalent to an Archer, Cataphract, Warhammer, and Battlemaster).

Mind you, this is a serious nerf and while I feel it may still get used, it's not going to be an attractive option.

If PGI feels that is the way to nerf things... well, good luck with that. It's going to be forgotten like many other IS mechs, such as the Firestarter, Jenner, Shadowhawk, Stalker, and many others that people forget over time... while many of them used to be really good at one time or another (with or w/o quirks).

There are plenty of other examples as well, but those are the most egregious ones that I can see (outside of the obvious Spreadsheet errors - it's not Excel's fault the Viper-C got "screwed").


2) Telemetry - 5% use in Tier 1 is not the same as 5% use in Tier 5.

I would call what I've just mentioned "unquirk to forget". Basically, any mech that was once a meta any point was routinely ignored over time, assumed to still "be good" (from unreliable sources) when it actually it had slowly fallen off the face of regular play (let alone comp play). Often this is mentioned in mock tones, because most often random rants about "it was good once upon a time" was dependent on two specific related responses. Normally you'd want "it was nerfed and now it's not stupid crazy OP"... instead of "if was nerfed, and people stopped using it altogether". We get a lot more of the latter than the former.

It's harder to notice when you're not playing against actual competition to test your understanding of the changes. While I'm not saying comp is always the definitive answer to everything, but patterns start from the top. There will always be exceptions (like the "Mist Lynx Whisperer"), but thing about the top is that if something... whether it is weapon or mech that becomes "unusable", it stops getting used as quickly as possible. The trickle down effect is exhibited months later (for whatever strange reason) where it becomes readily apparent.

It's a really bad habit when we continue to hold a lot of the same cycle of same bad mechs that never get attention... and ironically most of it is IS. New tech will not fix everything... it's just a bandaid over a bigger problem until it is fundamentally and properly addressed. Stuff like LFE is only going to truly replace STD engines. XL is still where the action is truly at, despite the obvious cost to compete. That's before we come to the real issue when the Skill Tree drops by...


3) Balance - 91 Clicks Per Mech/Ain't Got Time For Dat

This is something people have to remember... the skill tree like the old one applies to every mech. This means that every Clan mech that had zero quirks is getting a buff. So many IS mechs are actually getting nerfed in anticipation for this, but it could actually easily be argued that the preemptive strike isn't as warranted.

The most notable example is the Grasshopper-5P. The nerfs feel a lot similar to the rescale/Black Knight nerfs of yesteryear. Black Knights are not really a thing these days (primarily due to said nerfs, but the upscaling didn't help). Grasshopper-5P runs a niche that most heavier (let alone IS) mechs do not run... that is actual long range laser vomit. Clan ERLL is very onerous to most players (the Supernova that has the ERLL quirk is actually very devastating, but is also getting nerfed in the upcoming patch based on the Clan quirk notes). While yes you can get duration quirks on the tree (for which I don't know what the reasonable # of nodes is required for this), the Grasshopper-5P is going to be a lot less practical for all intents and purposes (I mean, ISERLL requires quirks to be semi-useful vs PPC+Gauss). High mounts are still a thing and are valuable... but any long term staring at a more useful/prominent mech like a PPC+Gauss poptart is very hazardous and makes this mech a lot less desirable (it's already niche as it is).

To understand the game, you must understand the context of why a mech functions the way it does at the highest level. Versatility of a mech is all about where its mounts are and its quirks. Failure to have that will produce "functional but not optimal" mechs. Most of the time though, having a niche is better than not being relevant at all. If only people truly understood what the rescaling did for Lights and what the actual problems were (not perceived, because a lot of bad players are often caught in bad positions and would've been punished regardless of mech), we wouldn't continue to see most upscaled Lights not even be considered in most instances (Jenners, Firestarters, Panthers - some of which are getting additional nerfs in the next patch).


TL;DR
When you don't leave your data to peer review (as in, feedback from players that have a clue), flaws in your "experiment" continue to be revealed. It doesn't take much effort to ask for help... but it's a lot of effort in learning, understanding, and articulating issues that plague the system. Balance is not always something you can chuck numbers at, but also you have to actively playtest in a live environment and get continuous feedback for. When that doesn't happen... well, we have plenty of time to gloss over and mock it.

When you're not paying attention, eventually errors in your design will catch up to you and affect everyone.

High mounts. Especially for energy vomit, terribly useful.



My Roughneck 3A felt almost cheesy with 20pts of energy quirks on the PTS.

However, what about brawling? True, there's a Roughneck with 4 missile hardpoints but 2 of them are on the arms! too low to get good convergence with, right?



That's right. Cockpit level arm mounted missile hardpoints.

Yes, but what about ballistic setups? You'd need a couple of high mounted ballistic hardpoints to really get the use out of....



I've had a lot of success with the Roughneck so far, except the 2A which is bad. All the others, even the hero, are great. The hero can mount 4 LPLs in cockpit high energy mounts like the 3A. It's also got uac quirks if you want to put them on the arms but.... 4 LPL at cockpit level on a 65 tonner.

While it lacks JJs of the GHR, the 3A Roughneck will out-perform it all the way around with the new de-quirkening.

Going to rock the holy living **** out of it until it comes out for cbills and gets nerfed to make way for whatever is coming next.

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 02 May 2017 - 11:07 PM, said:

High mounts. Especially for energy vomit, terribly useful.



My Roughneck 3A felt almost cheesy with 20pts of energy quirks on the PTS.

However, what about brawling? True, there's a Roughneck with 4 missile hardpoints but 2 of them are on the arms! too low to get good convergence with, right?



That's right. Cockpit level arm mounted missile hardpoints.

Yes, but what about ballistic setups? You'd need a couple of high mounted ballistic hardpoints to really get the use out of....



I've had a lot of success with the Roughneck so far, except the 2A which is bad. All the others, even the hero, are great. The hero can mount 4 LPLs in cockpit high energy mounts like the 3A. It's also got uac quirks if you want to put them on the arms but.... 4 LPL at cockpit level on a 65 tonner.

While it lacks JJs of the GHR, the 3A Roughneck will out-perform it all the way around with the new de-quirkening.

Going to rock the holy living **** out of it until it comes out for cbills and gets nerfed to make way for whatever is coming next.

To be honest, having shot enough Roughnecks on the field, I never really felt "threatened" on the whole.

The irony is if you looked over the Grasshopper's agility. It's actually yuge.

The agility is on par with the following:
Some Centurions
Some Crabs
Enforcers
Hunchbacks
Trebuchets (why?)
Some Catapults
Huntsman
Novas
Mr. Gargles (Gargoyles)

I dunno about you, but it's interesting company.

Edited by Deathlike, 02 May 2017 - 11:16 PM.

[Appogee]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 02 May 2017 - 11:01 PM, said:

HSR is actually quite good nowadays,

Something I recently observed is that packet loss can cause a significant reduction* in damage in some matches. It's possible that what some believe are HSR failures are actually packet loss issues.

* Example: one match in about every 25 I will finish a match thinking I've done 600 damage, yet find that I've only done 200 on the final match screen. I've played literally tens of thousands of matches, so I have a pretty reliable idea of how much damage I've done in a match.

At the moment I'm experiencing more packet loss than usual (verified by Wireshark). If I lose packets during critical moments in my connection to the game server, the game hangs at loading screens and sometimes disconnects. I have to re-log to get back into the match.

Karl Streiger, on 02 May 2017 - 11:05 PM, said:

A perfect example

You're welcome.

[MischiefSC]

Shifty McSwift, on 02 May 2017 - 10:20 PM, said:

Another DOOOOOMtm post.

Apparently you don't even really need to know what the changes will be to declare doom either, but either way you certainly don't need any real qualifications for it.



To this idea, why? Were you planning on fully speccing out mechs before you even try running them without skills? Before even testing their new baseline stats? That sounds like a self inflicted problem right there.

"PGI please fix my addiction to buying paint colors, you are ruining my family by making new colors that I am forced to buy, stealing food from my kids table."

Because the current PTS really only has less than 19 skill points in play on any build that isn't going to be terrible.

It has new customization in the same vein as SHS vs DHS or taking FF instead of Endo only less clear, so terribads are more likely to gimp themselves extra.

In fact it's not even 19; the only mechs that don't want to put them all into weapon quirks are going to be mechs that need some consumable options be that super hot or needing UAV/Coolshot/Airstrike.

The absolute best option will be laservomit because you just stack them all in one side of the tree, getting better performance than mechs with more than one weapon type. You know, that thing you could actually make worthwhile balance decisions on even with modules.

There's no reason to run unskilled mechs. They're going to all have 95% similar builds in the skill tree.

[Shifty McSwift]

You heard it here guys, 95% of builds are going to use the same tree choices, and the best of all is laser vomit, so I guess 95% of the game is going to be laser vomit.

I guess we will have to wait and see if that prediction is true, unless we are taking predictions as data now too?

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 02 May 2017 - 11:12 PM, said:

To be honest, having shot enough Roughnecks on the field, I never really felt "threatened" on the whole.

The irony is if you looked over the Grasshopper's agility. It's actually yuge.

The agility is on par with the following:
Some Centurions
Some Crabs
Enforcers
Hunchbacks
Trebuchets (why?)
Some Catapults
Huntsman
Novas
Mr. Gargles (Gargoyles)

I dunno about you, but it's interesting company.

30 pts of health on the CT, 18 on the STs.

The Accel/decel will sting but the twist difference is a fraction of a fraction of a second.

It's got enough health quirks I'm game with it taking a mobility hit.

Most people take terrible builds on the RHG. It lacks the firepower to be a front line brawler. Just can't put big enough guns to compete in that field with most the other mechs out there. It's a brilliant poke mech though. Convergence on the energy hardpoints is better than the KDK3 ballistics.

Better mounts than the warhammer it shares space with. With the new update, better quirks too. In the new post-quirk universe it's even a tad more mobile with almost identical health and better mounts than the BLR.

[Shifty McSwift]

Also I am hearing that the hit registration has no issues, and that MORE tiny frame high armor lights moving over 160kph would be better for all?