761 replies to this topic

[NocturnalBeast]

Ok, so we have had the same event three times, with the same results and the same rewards (other than the date changed on the participation standing item). So now, PGI has an opportunity to make the Civil War event much more significant. For the Civil War Event, I would like to see Davion vs Steiner with the other great houses choosing sides and for the clans, they should have Jade Falcon vs Wolf with the other clans choosing sides. As far as Mercs, they could choose IS or clan and would have to side with either Davion or Steiner or JF or Wolf respectively.

Edited by Ed Steele, 14 May 2017 - 04:14 PM.

[Dirty Scrub Casual]

Well played, PGI. Well played.

I completed ALL Event Unit and Personal Challenges on BOTH my Clan Loyalist pilot and my IS Merc pilot.
- except the Scouting challenges: ran out of time ;(

Made about 1,000 MC for "teh cexie patternz"; One Shots, mind you.

I made enough CB to buy 3 Huntsmen, a Bushwacker and a Grasshopper + refit all to my play style.

... and rebuilt 2 full Drop Cards for each pilot.

Hard slog, but wow! PGI totally rocked the kasbah on this one!

I wants moar of the presshuss I does!

114 FP Invasions! ALL solo pug drops.

Yep that's 40 FP Invasions on Clan (w/ 1.00 W/L ratio) and 74 FP Invasions on IS ( w/ 0.59 W/L ratio).

NB: Do not use the huge disparity between Clan and IS FP matches and W/L ratios as a measure of imbalance between Clan/IS Battlemechs.

It is my observation that Leadership and Teamwork are the primary root of perceived imbalance (and loadouts, too... run a KC w/ LRM10x4 again and I will personally TK you!). I discussed this extensively with many other players during and between matches and ALL agreed on this conclusion: Teamwork = Success.

During this event my experience with leadership and teamwork, or lack thereof, among the two factions, was the primary factor in success or failure. No leadership and/or poor teamwork ended in a loss most of the time.

And remember, I ran 114 FP Invasions. That's 57 hours of live experience and more than 20 'mechs, as I often swapped out to rebuild a Drop Card, from which I intentionally observed and drew my conclusions.

And yes, I lead probably 25% of my matches and assisted with active verbal callouts (in game VOIP) on more than 75% of them.

Russ, Paul, et al, this was an excellent, excellent event! Get those metrics analysed now

Edited by Dirty Scrub Casual, 14 May 2017 - 11:01 PM.

[Commander A9]

Teamwork won and lost matches.

Not the mechs.

If Clans were truly overpowered, Inner Sphere would have lost every single fight.

They didn't.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

@Movin Target ... for some dumb reason I can't quote posts from my work PC ... stupid MS Explorer ...

I copied the faction points 2-3 times a day starting on the 10th. Clans consistently recorded 53-57% of the wins, except for two outlier periods, one 0200-0700 UTC 13 May (Friday night NA time) where IS won 53.3% and another 0700-1600 UTC 13 May (Saturday night OC time) where Clans won 59.1%.

I would really like to see a copy of all of the (Faction and Top Five Unit) leaderboard scores for each hour.

To those saying that this does not prove that Clan tech and 'mechs are OP, but that the pilot quality is better, I think that the two are connected. As pilots get more experienced and understand which 'mechs are more capable and more flexible, they tend towards Clan tech. In general, Clan tech is easier to win with -- faster 'mechs, longer range, more damage. In very specific cases, where the 'mechs are built to match excellent quirks, IS is on par. However, even with a tonnage imbalance in favor of IS in both Scouting and Invasion, Clans won ~55% of their matches throughout the 9-day event.

Within the 228th, the sentiment was, if we want to win the event, we have to go Clan (because of the average skill of the PUGs and groups and the average capability of the 'mechs), if we want C-Bills, go IS (because the pay for Marik and Liao is just silly good).

No regrets. Maxed out all the rewards (except the dailies) on this account and my Alt (also IS). Good fun.

[Taynak]

Knight2416, on 14 May 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

Fighting Clan can feel like they are OP as Range and ECM are strong with this side. IS have the brawl and close range advantage, but have to get in close to use it.

I still hold the opinion that PGI should just allow any mech on any side and then it is pilot/unit/faction vs pilot/unit/faction.

Once Civil War patch is dropped please allow all mechs for all sides. As you are moving the time frame forward it would match.

Your theory seems like it would work in principle... but there is one flaw. This would only make it so that no one played innersphere mechs ever again. Loyalists, for the most part, would even give up the game on that.

[Aan Allein]

so we can't form groups any more?

Edited by Aan Allein, 14 May 2017 - 05:21 PM.

[Rodrigo Martinez]

Commander A9, on 14 May 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

Teamwork won and lost matches.

Not the mechs.

If Clans were truly overpowered, Inner Sphere would have lost every single fight.

They didn't.

Then all IS pilots can't do teamwork right, only clan pilots can do it right. The tug of war never showed IS advantage wich is evidence of my words. Something wrong with the IS factions, something ruins teamwork of IS pilots. Maybe it's colors or banners? It should be investigated by PGI.

[MovinTarget]

Rodrigo Martinez, on 14 May 2017 - 05:22 PM, said:

Then all IS pilots can't do teamwork right, only clan pilots can do it right. The tug of war never showed IS advantage wich is evidence of my words. Something wrong with the IS factions, something ruins teamwork of IS pilots. Maybe it's colors or banners? It should be investigated by PGI.

On my main i dropped mostly with my unit or other organized groups and we won the majority of our battles so, yes, grouping up, coordinating decks, listening to calls all contributed to our success. I cannot speak for those that lost as to why they did, nor will i attribute uny success on our part purely to skill or luck. The only constants i can identify are dropping with people/units that know what to do and how to do it.

Edited by MovinTarget, 14 May 2017 - 05:55 PM.

[CH4CH]

Clan's mechs are not OP anymore, when you meet with the IS good coordinate groups.

[Naqser]

CH4CH, on 14 May 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:

Clan's mechs are not OP anymore, when you meet with the IS good coordinate groups.

So, what happens when a good coordinated Clan group fight an equally good coordinated IS group?

[Rodrigo Martinez]

MovinTarget, on 14 May 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

On my main i dropped mostly with my unit or other organized groups and we won the majority of our battles so, yes, grouping up, coordinating decks, listening to calls all contributed to our success. I cannot speak for those that lost as to why they did, nor will i attribute uny success on our part purely to skill or luck. The only constants i can identify are dropping with people/units that know what to do and how to do it.

Then how you will explain the tug of war position after 30 mins of a new warday? In my eyes IS had no chance at all. Also, I want to see not overall stats but invasion only.

[Peiper]

The Devil Dogs played both sides of this event, not by choice.

My observations. In matches where it was obvious that there were premade teams, the premades won against pug groups 100% of the time.

In matches where both teams were premade teams, the teams with the best teamwork and players won 100% of the time.

The exception to the rule was when the terrain favored the inner sphere, a well-led inner sphere team could crush the clans due to quirks increasing the armor/structure of the IS mechs, and the cooler running weapons.

In the few matches I played where there was open terrain, the clans often, but not always won due to superior mobility and range. The majority of the matches I fought were on maps that favored the IS and seige maps, and so unless the clans could outfight the IS, the IS won.

Conclusions: In terrain that favored shorter range, brawls, and extremely hot maps, the IS had the advantage. In colder maps with long range available as the option, the clans won. Teamwork and good leadership could close those gaps.

_________________________

Another note. The teamwork between IS players was a bigger gap than between clan players. Example: There were really good IS teams that could beat most clan teams no matter the map or match mode. There were also really bad IS teams (by and large pug teams) that didn't stand a chance against clan pugs or units. Clan teams weren't as good as IS teams, but most clan pugs were of a higher caliber or experience level than inner sphere pugs. I would presume this is due to drop decks: that is, it's cheaper for a new player to buy an IS drop deck than a clan drop deck, meaning, there was less experience among the IS pugs than clan pugs.

These are simply my impressions and statistics may not back this up.

____________________________________

Here's my OPINION on the clan vs. IS tech debate. I believe that clans have been called overpowered so long that the IS believes they are still overpowered. I had a higher percentage of wins in the IS than I had in clans. There were many 'bulls**t!!!' moments when I was playing clan where I was asking one of the following questions while piloting a clan mech:

1. How in the world is that guy not overheated?
2. (An IS mech gets within 400 meters of me.) Oh shiznit, I'm not going to survive this!
3. That mech is cored! I've hit him 4, no 5 times now in that location and he's still up! WTF kind of internal structure quirks does that mech have to be so crazy tough???

I didn't have those same Oh s**t! moments when playing against the clans. They were easy to pick apart once we got into range. Playing the clan vs. IS is like having a fight between Wasp and the Thing. Wasp can dart in and sting the thing over and over again, eventually tiring him out and putting him to sleep. However, if the Thing gets just one good SWAT in, Wasp is left a bloody smear. Wasp can only hit and run over and over, too, because if she kept hitting, she'd get tired and become easy to swat (overheats). Conclusion, IS mechs have the advantage on most maps and in most game modes. It is only old beliefs that clans and the slightly higher quality of clan pugs (due to more experience grinding) that makes IS players disbelieve any attempt to argue with them about it.

[Orion3025]

Good fights all. 07 from HHoD.

[Dirty Scrub Casual]

Clan is technologically tuned to range and run-and-gun tactics, which when mastered is very effective against IS pilots who, thanks to playing ALL chassis the same way in PUGs, leads to a lack of the understanding that IS 'mechs are largely tank-and-brawl technology. Play the tech properly and you will excell. Play it poorly and #GitRekt.

On several FP matches on my IS pilot (maybe half a dozen, sadly) we were behind due to early losses by IS pilots who got caught out in the open and Clanners capitalized on the errors; rightly so.

Once our IS Caller got most of the pilots to communicate (NOT the bloody Command Wheel, but to speak or type), to be patient, to maintain cover, to peek-alpha-cover-cool, to move in groups, and focus fire, we could actually come from behind (almost literally in some cases) and secure a victory.

Initially when I started MWO I favoured Clan for the reasons stated by other pilots in comments above. And I still love my Clan 'mechs.

But now, for flexibility and specialization, I actually prefer IS for the ability to ton up or down and access more variations on the chassis than is possible with Clan tech. This is particularly true when a pilot stacks toward the variant's quirks, potentially making a very powerful specialist.

The two Factions possess two very different approaches to gameplay and strategy. Mastering one or learning both is, in my opinion, the REAL meta game. I was often able to verbally assist one of our IS lances caught out on the other side ot the map to defeat a lance of Clanners because I knew the Clan tech and having read the target data [LOCK TARGETS, People!] could walk our pilots through the engagement, like a mini-game, to success. It wasn't always perfect but I KNOW the IS pilots learned from the experience, and that is the goal of the exercise.

Furthermore, many many many pilots totally new to Faction Warfare entered the arena this event. Considering IS tech is more affordable to inventory, I wonder if the Cost of Entry didn't play a factor into the number of IS players versus the numbers of those same newbies who chose to run Clan tech. For example, after 74 matches on my IS Merc pilot I was individually ranked about 4,500th. But after 40 matches on my Clan Loyalist pilot I was ranked 1,200ish. See the disparate proportions there? This could be sussed out by an egghead at PGI and we'd all be amazed... I think

PGI has the numbers. An evening discussing the metrics from Tukayyid 3 would be very revealing.

If I'm wrong about my conclusions on the effect of leadership and teamwork, regardless of the tech piloted, then so be it. We don't grow and improve without education and testing and experience. Lather. Rinse. Repeat...

The more facets of the discussion we bring to the table the better, but if we simply pour mason jars full of salty tears on PGI's doorstep and cry "You cant balance 'mechs!" then we are honestly lazy and lack the commitment to work as a community.

And for those who are interested on my opinions on the myth of balance, check my post on the matter.

I'm pretty sure PGI shareholders want the game to succeed, and offering the player base equal opportunity to emotionally invest in MWO (and future titles) ensures a higher percentage of those same players will spend real cash on it and generate the kind of buzz that all the fancy video trailers in the BT Universe couldn't dream to attain.

You like it. Say so. Explain why.

You don't like it. Say so. Explain why.

... jus' sayin'...

[MovinTarget]

Rodrigo Martinez, on 14 May 2017 - 06:37 PM, said:

Then how you will explain the tug of war position after 30 mins of a new warday? In my eyes IS had no chance at all. Also, I want to see not overall stats but invasion only.

I honestly don't know, all I know is that I was not in every IS drop, nor could you have been so all we can do is compare notes:

1) Did you drop solo or in full/near full premades?
2) Did you coordinate your decks based on the map/mode you were playing (I mean this collectively, see #1)?
3) Did you consistently have drop callers attempting to direct efforts, making good, sound calls *THAT THE TEAM FOLLOWED*?
4) Was your group predominantly populated with players versed in how to win at FP?

[Commander A9]

Rodrigo Martinez, on 14 May 2017 - 05:22 PM, said:

Then all IS pilots can't do teamwork right, only clan pilots can do it right. The tug of war never showed IS advantage wich is evidence of my words. Something wrong with the IS factions, something ruins teamwork of IS pilots. Maybe it's colors or banners? It should be investigated by PGI.

IS gained advantages on two occasions-both minuscule, however.

IS was also outnumbered as far as I know. Look at the war log-both Clans and IS won and lost games.

There's no conspiracy here.

Teamwork on both sides made and broke matches.

How else can we explain the success the major mercenary units have, regardless of which faction they fight for?

Tukayyid III wasn't just a battle between Clans and Inner Sphere-it was a massive slaughterhouse of premade teams versus random pugs...more often than naught, the random pugs lost because they couldn't execute as a team.

I've been banging my head against a wall for years trying to tell people this. Put the major mercenary units in any mechs, and they will triumph because they know how to work together.

Edited by Commander A9, 14 May 2017 - 07:34 PM.

[Marius Romanis]

Taynak, on 14 May 2017 - 10:22 AM, said:

I hope that PGI sees the absolute joke that this tournament shows. The game is completely unbalanced. You can no longer deny the absolute fact that the clans are OP. This is proved by looking at the "tug of war". It shows 100% currently in favor of the clans.

Stopped reading when you typed tug of war bar 100% = clans op

PiratexCore, on 14 May 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

Next time though let's somehow figure out how to better balance the teams. IS losing every day, and pretty badly according to the tug of war bar throughout the entirety of the event, was not fun or encouraging.

Why is gods name to people think a tug of war bar....... SHOWS THE SAME INFORMATION AS A % WINS BAR GRAPH ?
IT SHOWS WHO ITS WINNING 51% OF GAMES, NOT WHO IS WINNING 99% OF GAMES..........

I estimate the truth will be about 60% Clan wins and 40% Innes Sphere wins.
That disparity is all from the lower tier potatoes, at higher tiers IS probably won 55% and Clan 45% (but theirs a lot more spuds than good teams in fw events)

Communication, builds and STORE decided outcome of this event.

Grouping up before drop, Player skill balance and Top end Meta mech balance had negligible impact on event outcome.

MechaBattler, on 14 May 2017 - 02:04 PM, said:

Drop on Polar whatever the cuss. And what do our IS pugs decide to do? Engage in long range trade with an enemy with superior range weapons. Yeah, yeah...

GHR-5P with 5 ERLARGE outtrades clans at range. (until its range quirk and beam duration reduction quirks get removed in 40 hours time)

Peiper, on 14 May 2017 - 06:39 PM, said:

The Devil Dogs played both sides of this event, not by choice.

I thought you said you were boycotting the event if pgi didnt give into your demands to let you break contract for free and faction swap to wolf day 1 ?

[Tul Duru]

You know. It felt like all the mercs and such flipped clan. Clan had a ton of organized units and some excellent community organizers who got people grouped and organized. Most of the information I got on the IS side were that they had so few dropping that anyone could get instant drops. So numbers and organization rolled this.

As for Mech balance. Throw that out and wait for the next patch on Tuesday, cause cut the quirks, change the engines, and blast that skill tree. Going to have to relearn the meta, and see how things go from there. Balance won't happen till at least a month after when they have data on how skill tree is working out.

[Ertur]

Renfis, on 14 May 2017 - 03:03 PM, said:

Add up the scores for clans which total 163930 and for IS which total 135946 and then mathematize it

Isn't that based on match score? So doesn't that score include what the losing side of each match gets? Unless the losing side for each match gets zero points, this is not an accurate representation.

To ignore the many advantages that Clan mechs have is disingenuous. Most, if not all, Clan mechs have both endo and FF; I know most of my IS mechs do not -- I can't fit anything else in, because of all of the crit space I lose. But since clan tech is better, they don't have the same disadvantage, and so can have both; which leave more tonnage for weapons. Clan weapons tend to weigh less and/or take up fewer crit spaces, along with having generally better range. Heat sinks are better with clan tech, taking up 2 spots instead of 3. Most clan mechs also have the completely better Clan XL engine, which doesn't have the weakness of losing the mech when you lose one side torso. All of this adds up to mechs that can carry more weapons and heat sinks per ton of weight, with the additional benefit that those weapons are each individually better.

This doesn't mean Clan mechs are insta-win machines, but they do have significant advantages. To ignore that is facile.

The matches I saw the IS win, it was due to good play calling where the lead was given to focus on the objective. That was the only way the IS ever won in invasion -- playing the objective. When the clans also focused on the objective, they won. Where they instead focused on killing all of the IS mechs, on the other hand.... oh, hell, they generally won all of those, too. But not always. When the Clans lost sight of the objective while the IS kept focus on the objective, that was the only chance the IS had. And it was still only just a chance; the Clan side could, and frequently did, just power their way through all opposition.

Those who look to the new IS tech to change this are going to be disappointed. The endo and FF advantage won't go away. Light engines are still 50% heavier than their XL counterparts. DHS will still be bulkier for the IS. Clan weapons will still be much better overall.

I've always called for the 12-10 solution. This isn't exactly how TT balanced (the whole bidding process, managed by whatever they call the Dungeon Master is really the key, and that's hard to automate), but it was part: the IS would drop in 3 lances of 4, while the Clans would drop in 2 stars of 5.

[General Solo]

Tul Duru, on 14 May 2017 - 08:08 PM, said:

As for Mech balance. Throw that out and wait for the next patch on Tuesday, cause cut the quirks, change the engines, and blast that skill tree. Going to have to relearn the meta, and see how things go from there.......

I love that time when PGI makes a change or releases a new map and the new meta must be discovered. Makes for some great and interesting games.

Kinda wish maps were randomly generated so dat could happen every game.