330 replies to this topic

[JC Daxion]

Maybe i just have older IS mechs, But the ones i play, even the ones i do my best in are..

TDR-5SS, Jester, Misery, Cicada 3L, HBk 4G, Crab 27.. Lets just take these mechs in this example. Maybe there are other IS mechs that are tons better, but in these mechs i can do pretty well, i normally do fairly well in my pug matches. Even in FW i am one of the higher scores on averagea. But in IS, i typically average about 220 maybe in match score. (according to leader boards, though with the random bad month thrown in.. Boy august was rough! I am in the category as a decent player i think.


Now, i jump into my clan mechs. The ones i do pretty well in are the EXE, Ebon, ARC, Timber, and shadow cats. But i find i can average in the 275 range more often than not.


I didn't suddenly get much better playing clans.. But it really seams like i can average a good 50 points higher in my clan mechs. And i get lots more of the 400-425 range matches than i do in my IS. Is it i am just not playing the great IS mechs? But really outside of the ARC, i am not playing anything that people say as OP. the ebon is good, the timber is good, but these days, just not the best thing around.

I am a very avid IS player, but really clans do seam to be stronger in many ways.



But it leads me to wonder, do more people seam to flock to IS side, and basically getting the mode casual players? leading to pugs not being as good over all? (i have not jumped into FW on clans side this event) Sunday i just got destroyed, every watch was pug verse unit. Monday and tues night, much more fun, had more pug vs pug and closer matches.

anyways, Over all i do think clans have an edge in many ways with the range meta. But FW I wonder if the player base is slanted in such that more casual players just play IS?

[B0oN]

Ryllen Kriel, on 08 May 2017 - 05:17 AM, said:

I'm not sure I have ever seen anyone give advice on face hugging a Kodiak before and using armour quirks to counter it's impressive alphas. The flanking...Sure, the face hugging...uh, no, not unless you are in a Locust and the Kodiak can't pitch down far enough to shoot you.
So far I´ve witnessed Battlemasters,Maulers, Stalkers, Banshees and Atlants doing exactly that . Smartly facetanking a quad UAC10 Kodiak . Guess who won IS machinery did, 3 out of 5 tries . #torsotwisting is not an urban legend

The Night Gyr is slow? It doesn't have to be fast with the current meta of long ranged gauss/ppc that is everywhere in standard or breakfast pastry varieties. Just be glad PGI doesn't care about macros/can't restrict them and you have a poptart in your arsenal that works...and does the job extremely well
My STD IS builds outflank NightGyrs while dishing out the hurt whenever they dare to show up ... ever seen a lance of GHR´s and BLR´s laservomit 1 single poptart ? No ?Thought so, but lemme tell youse all : Been on both sides, the IS and the clan side, as IS I just vomited them to death from everchanging positions, as Clan I poptarted them .IS machines are deadlier overall though, cos those oh so deadly, glacially slow PopGyr´s cant keep up DPS wise as soon as you are sub 500m . From there on the poptart loses every trade .
#dropdeckconsistency

ER large lasers are only a somewhat decent counter for gauss/PPC poptarts because it's the lone reliable Inner Sphere direct fire weapon which can hit back at long range. It is not a wise one since it is duration damage weaponry on a moving target versus burst damage from a stationary one. Inner Sphere gauss and ER PPCs aren't as good at extreme ranges on flying targets for obvious reasons. Either way trading at range is suicide for Inner Sphere pilots so the only real solution is to advance under cover to brawl. Staying stationary against poptarts ... ok, you have fun with that . I´ll be moving and getting the bugger from somewhere where it hurts him .
ERPPCs of both sides are my specialty . IS ERPPC´s work very well against their clan counterparts and in some rare case even exceed the clan´s performance profile .
Furthermore : Whats with that sweet AC2 spam to have longrange weaponry ? Oh, wait, it aint "meta", so why even bother trying, amIrite ?

Inner Sphere large pulse lasers are great but are effectively medium ranged weapons if you want to even come close to maximizing their damage potential. And if you take a look, most maps are medium-to close ranged with the occasional sniping spot . All in all there are only what ? 3 "true" long range maps in the whole game, and even on those it is very possible to get close to an enemy so that even IS players can get their quirks (#soUP!!11!1) into range .

Shubiduuuu, you just need to know what you do ...

[Zergling]

Templar Dane, on 08 May 2017 - 09:58 PM, said:

sustained dps is kind of moot when it comes to laser vomit since laser vomit is all about the damage on the component you're aiming at.

It isn't as important in a poke shooting fight where the opposition is giving the mech enough time to cool off between pokes, but it is still important to be able to poke out enough to discourage or prevent a push.

And when sustained DPS is needed for a non-poking fight, it is definitely useful.

Templar Dane, on 08 May 2017 - 09:58 PM, said:

How does a BK with medium pulse (.6s duration) and large pulse (.67s duration) have a .9s duration for it's alpha?

Again, where the hell are you getting .9s duration for ISLPL/ISMPL?

My bad, I thought it had regular Medium Lasers, not Medium Pulse.

...that reduce the effective range for the BK's alpha though, from 270 to 220 meters. You are honestly better comparing to a Medium Pulse boat Timby instead of mixed Large Pulse/ER Medium, as that is a closer comparison in range to a Large Pulse/Medium Pulse Black Knight.

Templar Dane, on 08 May 2017 - 09:58 PM, said:

ISLPL = 365m base range not 270, so the main punch of the BK has some reach.

The BK is going to be outgunned in a poke if it is only firing 3x IS Large Pulse Laser, because it is only doing 33 damage in 0.67 seconds, while the Timby can put out 40 damage in 0.67 seconds.

If the BK is firing its 6x Medium Pulse too, then at 365 range they are only doing 2.04 damage per laser, which brings it up to 45 damage in total.
That is only a 12.5% advantage in damage per poke, yet the Timby will take at least 28.3% more damage to down than the BK will.

Edited by Zergling, 09 May 2017 - 01:20 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Templar Dane, on 08 May 2017 - 09:58 PM, said:

Duration difference.





sustained dps is kind of moot when it comes to laser vomit since laser vomit is all about the damage on the component you're aiming at.





How does a BK with medium pulse (.6s duration) and large pulse (.67s duration) have a .9s duration for it's alpha?





Again, where the hell are you getting .9s duration for ISLPL/ISMPL?





ISLPL = 365m base range not 270, so the main punch of the BK has some reach.

and then you wonder why IS brings strange mechs, because some don't even know the characteristics of their (best) weapons.

[Zergling]

Lily from animove, on 09 May 2017 - 01:17 AM, said:

and then you wonder why IS brings strange mechs, because some don't even know the characteristics of their (best) weapons.

What? I admitted my mistake; I thought the BK had regular Medium Lasers not Medium Pulse.

[The Basilisk]

Dakota1000, on 06 May 2017 - 06:52 PM, said:

The thing is here is that the best of each doesn't matter one bit in faction play, it matters in quick play in which you don't want to have certain OP mechs.

In faction play if your faction's best mech is 100 tons and you only have a 240 ton deck (and no 25 tonners) you can only bring one of that best mech. If the other team has 265 tons and their best mech is 85 tons they can bring 2 of that mech.

With dropdecks you will rarely see things like a Kodiak. For Clans the max for Night Gyrs is 2 followed by 90 tons worth of mechs, so at best a 65 tonner and then the Mist Lynx. For IS you can bring a Battlemaster 2C followed by 3 Dragon-1Cs (which currently are the best IS heavy based on quirks, 275 STD and 3 LPL and those quirks mean you tank more than a Timber Wolf and your LPL are heavily quirked ontop of agility boosts)

Now consider that the Dragon *is* tankier than a Night Gyr and its not even the tankiest mech that the IS team is bringing and IS has 3 of them while Clan has only 2 of their precious Night Gyrs. The Night Gyrs may have the advantage in alpha strikes (though not DPS if running dual gauss builds [9.69 DPS for the Dragon and 8.97 DPS for the Night Gyr.]) but they are slower and have less armor.

IS gets speed, DPS, and armor, but loses in range and alpha strike damage here... when we compare a 60 tonner to a mech 15 tons heavier while having 25 extra tons to use in the dropdecks.

There is absolutely no reason why IS should be losing right now other than bringing the wrong builds and being out played coordination wise.

Ok...wow.
You are comparing Dragons with NightGyrs.
Isn't this more like Battlemaster contra NightGyr, only the Gyr is faster, more nimble and can jump ?

For every in FP normaly used IS mech there is one 5 to 10t lighter Clan mech that does his job, only better.

And ppl are whining because they can't bring effin Kodiaks to FP because they would have to make trade offs in their drop decks for bringing literaly the only high tonnage assault into play that is still worth using at all (IS and Clams) ok maybe, just maybe the MADIIC and the Battlemaster too but as I said...just maybe.

Do you know what happens when IS trys to bring its overwhelming allmighty tripple LPLs ?

They get effin nailed from over a kilometer by DualGauss+ERPPC fire...yea baby 60points ppfld right to ya face (ok ok just 50 and 10 splash)
No Quirks in the world will help you when two nightgyrs with mildly decent gunners stand on sniper hill on emerald or Boreal and just look at the gates.
And do you know what happens when two quad LBX or dual UAC10/UAC5 Kodiaks stand shoulder by shoulder behind Omega in Sulfur ? Yea you will loose two mechs till you've gotten your warning out.

And concerning Scout ... did nowbody notice what happens when you encounter 4 Huntsman with 8 SRM launchers each ?
Want to make a guess ? I mean compared to an Centurion with 3 launchers or a Griffin with 4.

Guys stop making excuses and learn to play comments get your facts straight.

The only reason IS winns from time to time is that there are so many completely hillarious Clan dropdecks and builds around in FP PuGlandia.

[Karl Streiger]

both sides have their own puglandia mechs both sides have good units with a plan - of course you have maps that highly favours either attacker or defender - so this add even more background noise.

in the end you need to collect the data - and remove skill and team what remains is data you can use.
and the nacked data clearly shows the advantage of SOME Clan Mechs. A Executioner or Warhawk might have issues with the BattleMaster (I was surprised by the performance when used it for the first time - but surly because I needed to play backstander - something that is alien to me)

[Lances107]

You IS guys are too funny pay attention to what the op is saying. If you do not believe him ask your top units like EVIL, 228, and HHoD. How do I know? I have seen them use that exact setup the op is talking about on me. You IS guys have no idea the amount of tonage, tank ability you waste, and then you come on the forums and claim clan op clan op. As the op stated gauss/ppc is the best counter to large lasers. What he did not mention in that first page, is its not even a matter of accuracy. The clan er ppcs generate so much heat, that if you get pushed by IS mechs, you simply get run over. I loved that line about the summoner, that had to be the statement of the year in this game. A mech that thrives on a few powerful weapons, gets nerfed. Never mind the fact that a few powerful weapons only works if said weapons do not get kicked in the **** The only one that hasn't yet is the LBX 20.

[B0oN]

Lances107, on 09 May 2017 - 04:40 AM, said:

You IS guys are too funny pay attention to what the op is saying. If you do not believe him ask your top units like EVIL, 228, and HHoD. How do I know? I have seen them use that exact setup the op is talking about on me. You IS guys have no idea the amount of tonage, tank ability you waste, and then you come on the forums and claim clan op clan op. As the op stated gauss/ppc is the best counter to large lasers. What he did not mention in that first page, is its not even a matter of accuracy. The clan er ppcs generate so much heat, that if you get pushed by IS mechs, you simply get run over. I loved that line about the summoner, that had to be the statement of the year in this game. A mech that thrives on a few powerful weapons, gets nerfed. Never mind the fact that a few powerful weapons only works if said weapons do not get kicked in the **** The only one that hasn't yet is the LBX 20.

Just wait ... everything on the clan side WILL eventually feel Mr. NerfBat^TM
No way around that actually, looking at the history in this forum.

[Karl Streiger]

The Shortbus, on 09 May 2017 - 04:49 AM, said:

Just wait ... everything on the clan side WILL eventually feel Mr. NerfBat^TM
No way around that actually, looking at the history in this forum.

???
The Nerf Bat doesn't know friend or foe. It will hit everything

Edited by Karl Streiger, 09 May 2017 - 05:05 AM.

[Mawai]

Dakota1000, on 08 May 2017 - 07:29 AM, said:

... removed text ...

I really don't understand how people can go and realistically complain about their enemies being OP while they use some of their own side's worst mechs and worst builds. If we had IS vs IS maybe then people would find the hypocrisy too much to bear and actually talk about improving certain weak mechs in particular instead of power nerfing the enemy's faction to the point where a group of pugs using the worst builds can beat a 12 man meta squad.

Actually, I think it would be a great idea for PGI to run an IS vs IS challenge, a clan vs clan challenge and a clan vs is challenge on separate weekends. Take the data from that and you can correlate the players on each side and ultimately get an idea of overall mech balance. Something similar can probably be done by analysing the results of a large number of quick play matches as well. If you combined the two then you'd probably be able to get a decent idea of where all the mechs sit in terms of relative balance.

PGI probably has all the data they need to do this ... all they need to do is contract out the analysis under an NDA since I don't think it is something they want to do internally ... but you could probably get someone in the community to do the analysis relatively cheaply.

[Requiemking]

The Shortbus, on 09 May 2017 - 04:49 AM, said:

Just wait ... everything on the clan side WILL eventually feel Mr. NerfBat^TM
No way around that actually, looking at the history in this forum.

How about introducing the Clans to Mr. NerfBat©, we introduce the IS to Mr. BuffWrench©.

[A Shoddy Rental Mech]

So much of the same dogma

Dakota1000, on 06 May 2017 - 06:37 PM, said:

Mechs like the Kodiak have been nerfed about 10 times since they came out after getting its overpowered 4 UAC10 build nerfed into oblivion then just got beat down from there to push it in line with the other Clan assaults that no one uses.

Please list the 10 "nerfs"

You cannot use :
1. PGI properly applying ghost heat to the 4uac10 build.
The Kodiak was released broken. Pgi finally manage to fix it after how many months?

2. UAC Nerf.
Clan and I.S. UAC's were nerfed at the same time. Big difference here is that I.S. doesn't have UAC10 or a UAC20 to nerf.
Hurts any mech (I.S. or clan) mounting 2 or less UACs


3. Engine penalties when losing a side torso.
If you've lost your torso, you've all ready lost 1/2 you ability to generate heat. 80% movement is still better than being 100% dead.

The Shortbus, on 09 May 2017 - 04:49 AM, said:

Just wait ... everything on the clan side WILL eventually feel Mr. NerfBat^TM
No way around that actually, looking at the history in this forum.

To quote myself from this post link


"PGI has been whacking the I.S. with The Nerf Bat ever since that glorious 2 month time period between Tukayyid 2 (which the clans won even with a 20 ton advantage) and the nerf hammer hitting in February. You know, the one time the I.S. mechs actually had an advantage over the clan mechs. The I.S. mechs have been nerfed to the point that mercs won't even touch them.

After 7 or 8 whacks at the I.S. PGI finally addresses the "overperforming" Kodiak and Arctic cheetah. Long overdo most would say.

Touch the precious clan mechs once with the nerfbat, and you people lose your minds"

The Nerf Bat, on 19 October 2016 - 11:57 PM, said:

Any I.S. mech that is viable for faction warfare must be whacked by The Nerf Bat.

Top tier I.S. mechs have already been whacked by The Nerf Bat including the Blackjack, Catapult, Warhammer, Maurader, Battlemaster, and Black Knight.

The Feb 20 patch was when the the Nerf Hammer hit.

PATCH NOTES - 1.4.53 - 16-FEB-2016
https://mwomercs.com...-1453-16feb2016

"All remaining negative/detrimental Weapon Quirks on Clan 'Mechs have been removed. A small amount of negative Armor and Turn Quirks remain for certain variants.
• All Inner Sphere Energy Range Quirks are now set at 10% (if present)."

In that patch they whacked the Blackjack with the nerf bat. On top of that the found a buff bat to hit the clan targeting computers. Just look at all the green(buffs) on the PDF of all Clan Quirk changes here .

Anything that was competitive was whacked. Patch after patch after patch.

April
Black Knight gets whacked
http://mwomercs.com/...rk%20Values.pdf

June
Black Knight gets whacked again
http://static.mwomer...006-21-2016.pdf

Resize I.S. mechs get big

July
Blackjack Catapult Warhammer Maurader Battlemaster
http://static.mwomer...rk%20Values.pdf

whack whack whack whack whack



Now we move onto the 2nd tier.

• Enforcer ENF-5P: UAC Jam Chance increased to -20% (from -30%).
• JagerMech JM6-DD: UAC Jam Chance increased to -20% (from -30%).

The results have proven themselves in FW 3.0 where Jade Falcon cut a path through the innersphere while The Nerf Bat was whacking I.S. mechs.

The results have proven themselves in FW 4.1 when most of the mercs abandoned the under-performing I.S. mechs for clan tech. The Clans cut an even greater path through the innersphere.

and... Tukayyid 3

So finally P.G.I. has someone not named Paul addressing "balance". Means every once in a while even the clan mechs are going to be touch by The Nerf Bat.

[Templar Dane]

The Nerf Bat, on 09 May 2017 - 10:55 AM, said:

So much of the same dogma



Please list the 10 "nerfs"

You cannot use :
1. PGI properly applying ghost heat to the 4uac10 build.
The Kodiak was released broken. Pgi finally manage to fix it after how many months?

2. UAC Nerf.
Clan and I.S. UAC's were nerfed at the same time. Big difference here is that I.S. doesn't have UAC10 or a UAC20 to nerf.
Hurts any mech (I.S. or clan) mounting 2 or less UACs


3. Engine penalties when losing a side torso.
If you've lost your torso, you've all ready lost 1/2 you ability to generate heat. 80% movement is still better than being 100% dead.





To quote myself from this post link


"PGI has been whacking the I.S. with The Nerf Bat ever since that glorious 2 month time period between Tukayyid 2 (which the clans won even with a 20 ton advantage) and the nerf hammer hitting in February. You know, the one time the I.S. mechs actually had an advantage over the clan mechs. The I.S. mechs have been nerfed to the point that mercs won't even touch them.

After 7 or 8 whacks at the I.S. PGI finally addresses the "overperforming" Kodiak and Arctic cheetah. Long overdo most would say.

Touch the precious clan mechs once with the nerfbat, and you people lose your minds"



The results have proven themselves in FW 3.0 where Jade Falcon cut a path through the innersphere while The Nerf Bat was whacking I.S. mechs.

The results have proven themselves in FW 4.1 when most of the mercs abandoned the under-performing I.S. mechs for clan tech. The Clans cut an even greater path through the innersphere.

and... Tukayyid 3

So finally P.G.I. has someone not named Paul addressing "balance". Means every once in a while even the clan mechs are going to be touch by The Nerf Bat.

Are you familiar with Tuk1 and Tuk2 and how the wait times were 30+ minutes for IS because of a population imbalance? Even with those units flocking to the clan side the population was still lopsided. So a greater number of organized groups were on one side.

http://mwomercs.com/...yid-statistics/

Data from Tuk1. Clans won, but lost more mechs during the event than they killed. If you follow the replies to the thread you'll see a lot of complains about the timberwolf being OP because it was used so much......you know, when there were only 4 clan heavies..........so they had to choose between the timberwolf, hellbringer, vulture and summoner.

The event was used as THE excuse as to why the timberwolf and stormcrow (whose alternatives at the time were ONLY the pre-quirk nova and the ice fridge) needed to be nerfed with laser duration penalties.

The only reason Tuk1-2 were won by clanners was because of the units that joined clan. Full stop.

Why did so many units join smoke jag just before this event started? Probably because they all remembered how terrible the wait times for IS were in the last two events, and saw that IS outnumbered clan. Wait times for both sides are pretty short, but they couldn't have known it was going to be that way beforehand.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Yeonne Greene, on 08 May 2017 - 08:19 PM, said:

What kind of craptastic BK build is that? Extra short-ranged, under-cooled, under-engined, focusing only on the quantity of damage and not the quality...nobody is going to play that. Why would you go XL and then constrain yourself to the same speeds you would run on a STD build?

Preference on my part really. I prefer MPL over normal ML due to normal ML being 0.9 second duration compared to 0.6 which better matches the LPL. As Zergling pointed out, normal ML doesn't win trades well against CERML (though the LPL make up for that assuming you're in range).

I focused solely on the quality of damage per shot rather than the quantity of shots, as its a full on short range defense poke build, perfect on maps such as Grim Portico in which the enemy walks through those trenches, its cold, and you'll be able to get a shot off then move back to cover usually without even giving the enemy time to turn in your general direction.


I do agree that the LPL+ML build is much more commonly seen, but its not really my thing, as I've tuned my own towards the type of situations I come across, I didn't need the range, I just needed to move a little closer. I didn't need that extra cooling, I just needed that extra precision and damage per shot so I didn't have to take an extra shot.

EDIT: Also if it comes down to a brawl I can fire one group or the other to run pretty cool and finish off an enemy if I'm running hot without shutting down. The LPL also still function well at range similar to a normal triple LPL build.

Edited by Dakota1000, 09 May 2017 - 02:58 PM.

[Alexander of Macedon]

I do so love being able to tell at a glance all the smoked kitty mercs trying to deflect and BS.

[Templar Dane]

Alexander of Macedon, on 09 May 2017 - 05:03 PM, said:

I do so love being able to tell at a glance all the smoked kitty mercs trying to deflect and BS.

I do so love all the spheroids coming to the forums after losing a match and cry about where a 12-man touched them.

[iLLcapitan]

The Nerf Bat, on 09 May 2017 - 10:55 AM, said:

The results have proven themselves in FW 4.1 when most of the mercs abandoned the under-performing I.S. mechs for clan tech.

You clearly got no clue what you're talking about, since most prominent mercs swich between IS and clan on fixed schedules.
Guess you just wanted to put as many times your name in a post as you could. Well done, but apart from that your post is just nonsense.

[Templar Dane]

iLLcapitan, on 09 May 2017 - 05:26 PM, said:

You clearly got no clue what you're talking about, since most prominent mercs swich between IS and clan on fixed schedules.
Guess you just wanted to put as many times your name in a post as you could. Well done, but apart from that your post is just nonsense.

The deluded tend to think that saying something enough times can somehow make it true. Some random person that has never played the game, which isn't far from some of the potatoes complaining, would come onto these forums and think damn these clan mechs must be overpowered since there's so many people complaining. Though if they did some digging they'd see it was the same dozen or so dudes saying the same things over and over.

[iLLcapitan]

Yea its crazy rly. Why did I come back to this echo chamber rly...