330 replies to this topic

[Garfuncle]

This isn't rocket science. Every clan energy weapon out damages and out ranges IS equivalents. "But muh duration! Muh heat!" yeah, my ML duration really comes in handy against the Clan ERML firing at 400m with a targeting computer. Oh, there is also Night Gyr Guass/PPC. Good luck twisting against near instant 40 pinpoint damage at 600m with a targeting computer making the projectiles fly like AC2s. Oh, did I touch on the Clan XL? Twice the performance (and less slots!) with the added safety of not being insta-killed when you lose a st. "But muh speed! Muh hardpoints!" Fighting at reduced effectiveness is better than being DEAD. But no. Clans are fine. IS just are spuds by nature. Yup.

[Zergling]

Dakota1000, on 09 May 2017 - 02:53 PM, said:

Preference on my part really. I prefer MPL over normal ML due to normal ML being 0.9 second duration compared to 0.6 which better matches the LPL. As Zergling pointed out, normal ML doesn't win trades well against CERML (though the LPL make up for that assuming you're in range).

I focused solely on the quality of damage per shot rather than the quantity of shots, as its a full on short range defense poke build, perfect on maps such as Grim Portico in which the enemy walks through those trenches, its cold, and you'll be able to get a shot off then move back to cover usually without even giving the enemy time to turn in your general direction.


I do agree that the LPL+ML build is much more commonly seen, but its not really my thing, as I've tuned my own towards the type of situations I come across, I didn't need the range, I just needed to move a little closer. I didn't need that extra cooling, I just needed that extra precision and damage per shot so I didn't have to take an extra shot.

EDIT: Also if it comes down to a brawl I can fire one group or the other to run pretty cool and finish off an enemy if I'm running hot without shutting down. The LPL also still function well at range similar to a normal triple LPL build.

It does make sense to maximise the BK's firepower at close range by running Medium Pulse Lasers, since even with the greater range of regular Medium Lasers, the BK is still only going to beat a Large Pulse + ER Medium Timby at close range.


But if I had to choose a BK build to run with to try and beat laser vomit Timby's with, it'd probably have a standard engine with regular medium lasers; it would have a smaller advantage in firepower at close range, but it'd be a lot more durable.

Eg, this build with a standard 290 engine.
Minimum damage to kill that BK is 153 points, versus 136 for a Timby.

Total alpha damage is 63 versus the 68 the Timby can put out, with 0.9 second burn time.
In 0.9 seconds, the Timby is doing 54 damage, so the BK is going to be doing 26% higher damage to a single location per exchange (at 270 meters or less), while needing to receive 12.5% more damage to its CT to be killed.

In such a poke fight at close range, the BK definitely has the advantage over the Timby.


It wouldn't do quite as well against a 7x Medium Pulse Laser Timby though, as that would give the Timby a shorter beam duration than the BK (0.85 versus 0.90).
In that situation, the BK would be doing 61 damage to a single location, versus the Timby doing 56.
That is only a 9% advantage for the BK, but it has the 12.5% durability advantage, so it'd probably still win in a close range poke fight.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Zergling, on 09 May 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

It does make sense to maximise the BK's firepower at close range by running Medium Pulse Lasers, since even with the greater range of regular Medium Lasers, the BK is still only going to beat a Large Pulse + ER Medium Timby at close range.


But if I had to choose a BK build to run with to try and beat laser vomit Timby's with, it'd probably have a standard engine with regular medium lasers; it would have a smaller advantage in firepower at close range, but it'd be a lot more durable.

Eg, this build with a standard 290 engine.
Minimum damage to kill that BK is 153 points, versus 136 for a Timby.

Total alpha damage is 63 versus the 68 the Timby can put out, with 0.9 second burn time.
In 0.9 seconds, the Timby is doing 54 damage, so the BK is going to be doing 26% higher damage to a single location per exchange (at 270 meters or less), while needing to receive 12.5% more damage to its CT to be killed.

In such a poke fight at close range, the BK definitely has the advantage over the Timby.


It wouldn't do quite as well against a 7x Medium Pulse Laser Timby though, as that would give the Timby a shorter beam duration than the BK (0.85 versus 0.90).
In that situation, the BK would be doing 61 damage to a single location, versus the Timby doing 56.
That is only a 9% advantage for the BK, but it has the 12.5% durability advantage, so it'd probably still win in a close range poke fight.

I prefer keeping my speed at or above 70kph rather than dropping into the 60s and I find the Black Knight's hitboxes far too favorable to pass up putting an XL into them most of the time so I take the benefits granted by an XL only to rarely pay the costs.

But yeah, the meta builds have a bit of give and take for the preferences of the user. Some fight closer or further from the enemy, others prefer the safety net while others like risk and reward, some like to hit hard a few times, others like to hit average a lot of times.

Main idea is that a build is straight forward and to the point about what it does is all.

In either example though, the BK is beating the Timber Wolf by a decent margin, mine focusing on hitting hard and negating or spreading incoming damage and yours focusing on hitting hard and being able to take all that damage.

[Zergling]

Dakota1000, on 09 May 2017 - 10:22 PM, said:

I prefer keeping my speed at or above 70kph rather than dropping into the 60s and I find the Black Knight's hitboxes far too favorable to pass up putting an XL into them most of the time so I take the benefits granted by an XL only to rarely pay the costs.

But yeah, the meta builds have a bit of give and take for the preferences of the user. Some fight closer or further from the enemy, others prefer the safety net while others like risk and reward, some like to hit hard a few times, others like to hit average a lot of times.

Main idea is that a build is straight forward and to the point about what it does is all.

In either example though, the BK is beating the Timber Wolf by a decent margin, mine focusing on hitting hard and negating or spreading incoming damage and yours focusing on hitting hard and being able to take all that damage.

Yeah, it really comes down to preference.

When new tech comes out, the standard engine build will be able to increase to a LFE320, giving it 74.3 kph top speed, which is a decent buff.

ER Medium Lasers would give it nearly the same range as the Timby, but it'll suffer from longer beam duration and more heat if it uses those, which will reduce the BK's advantage at close range, so it would likely end up inferior in both a poke fight and sustained DPS contest.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Zergling, on 09 May 2017 - 11:11 PM, said:

Yeah, it really comes down to preference.

When new tech comes out, the standard engine build will be able to increase to a LFE320, giving it 74.3 kph top speed, which is a decent buff.

ER Medium Lasers would give it nearly the same range as the Timby, but it'll suffer from longer beam duration and more heat if it uses those, which will reduce the BK's advantage at close range, so it would likely end up inferior in both a poke fight and sustained DPS contest.

When new tech comes in the new PPC options might overshadow the lasers entirely, Snub Nose could take LPL's spot entirely if the ghost heat cap is 3 rather than 2, that or be paired up with some light PPCs or heavy PPCs to get around the ghost heat limits if all PPCs aren't linked.

Really though its all up in the air, and we have no stats on all of it, so I got nothing much to say about it but maybes.

[Karl Streiger]

OK first all of you need to look the facts in the eye - here you have some facts

I can also provide some nice picture of the 3 Large Beam Lasers - but i have missed to add descriptions to the axes.
People might get the wrong clues

Spoiler

This is not showing the performance - its shows the aggregate of player numbers
You see the accuracy and the ability to deal damage is first a gaussian curve - second skill when it comes to shooting is a illusion.
The peak is just the number - more important would have been the peak and its position on the X-axis.

Only 58 players but from the full spectrum - pitty i only have the stats - i wish i could get a look in PGIs database.

however those 3 Large Beam Lasers are equal when it comes to player performance - each weapon deals ~46% of its damage per shot of course the damage per tick is identical - so to call Clan ER Large Laser bad because of their longer duration is a joke.

Speaking of Large Lasers - the IS LPL has a damage value of 0.48 where as the Clan LPL works with 0.47 - add range, weight and heat to the mix - and they are equal as well.

So the only difference if there is some might be the option to fire 3 vs 2 without Ghost Heat.

Although there is the Clan ER-MLAS with 0.44 and you can fire 6 (0.44*6*7 > 0.48*3*11) and 6tons vs 21tons and 36 heat vs 21 heat.

[Mcgral18]

Templar Dane, on 09 May 2017 - 05:29 PM, said:

The deluded tend to think that saying something enough times can somehow make it true. Some random person that has never played the game, which isn't far from some of the potatoes complaining, would come onto these forums and think damn these clan mechs must be overpowered since there's so many people complaining. Though if they did some digging they'd see it was the same dozen or so dudes saying the same things over and over.

Almost like those Clam Apologists...

[Dogstar]

Templar Dane, on 08 May 2017 - 12:57 PM, said:

2x CERLL = 22 damage/20 heat/1.5s duration @ 740m
3x ISERLL = 27 damage/24 heat/1.25s duration @ 675m (742.5m with 10% range quirk)

5x CERML = 35 damage/30 heat/1.15s duration @ 405m
3x ISLPL = 33 damage/21 heat/.67s duration @ 365m (401.5m with 10% range quirk)

Base stats with no quirks, 10% range quirk in parentheses. Where's that massive range advantage? Even with targeting computers, I'd still take the IS vomit any day of the week because of the shorter durations.

CXL vs ISXL........clan weapons tend to spread damage more than IS equivalents. It's easier to core out your target when your damage goes where you want rather than spreading around the target as it moves.

Better heat sinks? How about having to fire less volleys to kill something because your damage isn't spread around the target as much, thus generating less heat?

You're totally ignoring the weight so your argument is heavily (get it?) skewed.

3x lpl = 21t
5x cerml =5t - leaves 16t for extra heatsinks/extra weapons/bigger engines/more jumpjets

Base weapon stats _include_ weight, you can't simply ignore it and claim IS weapons are OP without looking extremely dishonest

[visionGT4]

Mcgral18, on 10 May 2017 - 01:01 AM, said:

Almost like those Clam Apologists...

I think we have crossed the threshold to denial now. At least the previous bunch of clam apologists attempted to justify their entitled need to club baby seals because lore. Now they just flat out deny the indisputable fact that ton for ton, crit for crit clam tech is totally superior to anything IS can field.

My favourite point of argument during this cycle was comparing 21 tons of isLPL to 12 tons of cLPL / 5 tons of ERML - that really was some classic sh1t

Easy moders gonna easy mode

[Haldricht]

visionGT4, on 10 May 2017 - 03:13 AM, said:

I think we have crossed the threshold to denial now. At least the previous bunch of clam apologists attempted to justify their entitled need to club baby seals because lore. Now they just flat out deny the indisputable fact that ton for ton, crit for crit clam tech is totally superior to anything IS can field.

I'm not opposed to Clan tech being superior. It should be better, that's the point of Clan tech. Matchmaking should enforce balance. In lore, the Clans self-nerfed with batchalls and zellbrigen, but players won't do that. Maybe enforce batchalls by reducing the Clan drop deck to 3 mechs at a 60-ton average, then roll back weapon/structure buffs and nerfs?

[Zergling]

Dakota1000, on 09 May 2017 - 11:22 PM, said:

When new tech comes in the new PPC options might overshadow the lasers entirely, Snub Nose could take LPL's spot entirely if the ghost heat cap is 3 rather than 2, that or be paired up with some light PPCs or heavy PPCs to get around the ghost heat limits if all PPCs aren't linked.

Really though its all up in the air, and we have no stats on all of it, so I got nothing much to say about it but maybes.

Yep, even if the Snub-Nosed PPC has damage drop off like in TT, it will still be doing 10 damage out to 270 meters range with 5 damage at 450 meters.
That means about 100 meters shorter effective range than the IS Large Pulse Laser, but it'll be 1 ton lighter.

Only problem is it will very likely produce produce more heat, even without ghost heat penalties (SN-PPC is equal at 10 heat with LPL in TT, but LPL has been dropped to 7 heat in MWO).

[Lily from animove]

Karl Streiger, on 10 May 2017 - 12:33 AM, said:

OK first all of you need to look the facts in the eye - here you have some facts

I can also provide some nice picture of the 3 Large Beam Lasers - but i have missed to add descriptions to the axes.
People might get the wrong clues

Spoiler

This is not showing the performance - its shows the aggregate of player numbers
You see the accuracy and the ability to deal damage is first a gaussian curve - second skill when it comes to shooting is a illusion.
The peak is just the number - more important would have been the peak and its position on the X-axis.

Only 58 players but from the full spectrum - pitty i only have the stats - i wish i could get a look in PGIs database.

however those 3 Large Beam Lasers are equal when it comes to player performance - each weapon deals ~46% of its damage per shot of course the damage per tick is identical - so to call Clan ER Large Laser bad because of their longer duration is a joke.

Speaking of Large Lasers - the IS LPL has a damage value of 0.48 where as the Clan LPL works with 0.47 - add range, weight and heat to the mix - and they are equal as well.

So the only difference if there is some might be the option to fire 3 vs 2 without Ghost Heat.

Although there is the Clan ER-MLAS with 0.44 and you can fire 6 (0.44*6*7 > 0.48*3*11) and 6tons vs 21tons and 36 heat vs 21 heat.

c-ERLL a bad because they are more hot and even if both % are equal in hitting (which s only the subset of some specifics players statitsics) the total and absolute ehat wasted for the CERLL is bigger andsicne heattreshold is limited the CERLL wastes more heat as well as spreads more damage to unecessary components. Thats why it is a hardl yused wepaon amongst clanners, It's inefficient.

[visionGT4]

Haldricht, on 10 May 2017 - 03:48 AM, said:

I'm not opposed to Clan tech being superior. It should be better, that's the point of Clan tech. Matchmaking should enforce balance. In lore, the Clans self-nerfed with batchalls and zellbrigen, but players won't do that. Maybe enforce batchalls by reducing the Clan drop deck to 3 mechs at a 60-ton average, then roll back weapon/structure buffs and nerfs?

Clammers from clanada just need to get over themselves and agree to play nice with the other children. This is an online pvp shooter which REQUIRES balance.

If it was me id make clam about the tech, IS about the mech. Which will means IS needs serious quirkage to achieve parity with the retartadness that is player character clamTech matched up against intro & SL tech.

clammers can have lolTech like 1ton/crit LL's in boring as hell, sterile mechs that have zero character/personality (just like the people driving em) that play like buckets of sh1t and are about as exciting as bedding a sack of potato's. But that tech be badass (yo)

[Y E O N N E]

Zergling, on 10 May 2017 - 05:36 AM, said:

Yep, even if the Snub-Nosed PPC has damage drop off like in TT, it will still be doing 10 damage out to 270 meters range with 5 damage at 450 meters.
That means about 100 meters shorter effective range than the IS Large Pulse Laser, but it'll be 1 ton lighter.

Only problem is it will very likely produce produce more heat, even without ghost heat penalties (SN-PPC is equal at 10 heat with LPL in TT, but LPL has been dropped to 7 heat in MWO).

I don't think the Snub will be 270 optimum. Long range is 450; I expect that, with a truncated max range.

[iLLcapitan]

visionGT4, on 10 May 2017 - 06:44 AM, said:

Clammers from clanada just need to get over themselves and agree to play nice with the other children. This is an online pvp shooter which REQUIRES balance.

If it was me id make clam about the tech, IS about the mech. Which will means IS needs serious quirkage to achieve parity with the retartadness that is player character clamTech matched up against intro & SL tech.

clammers can have lolTech like 1ton/crit LL's in boring as hell, sterile mechs that have zero character/personality (just like the people driving em) that play like buckets of sh1t and are about as exciting as bedding a sack of potato's. But that tech be badass (yo)

hahahahah you're full of salt dude
that beeing said, I can't wait to get back into my WHMs and BLRs to proove guys like you wrong

[Templar Dane]

Karl Streiger, on 10 May 2017 - 12:33 AM, said:

OK first all of you need to look the facts in the eye - here you have some facts

I can also provide some nice picture of the 3 Large Beam Lasers - but i have missed to add descriptions to the axes.
People might get the wrong clues

Spoiler

This is not showing the performance - its shows the aggregate of player numbers
You see the accuracy and the ability to deal damage is first a gaussian curve - second skill when it comes to shooting is a illusion.
The peak is just the number - more important would have been the peak and its position on the X-axis.

Only 58 players but from the full spectrum - pitty i only have the stats - i wish i could get a look in PGIs database.

however those 3 Large Beam Lasers are equal when it comes to player performance - each weapon deals ~46% of its damage per shot of course the damage per tick is identical - so to call Clan ER Large Laser bad because of their longer duration is a joke.

Speaking of Large Lasers - the IS LPL has a damage value of 0.48 where as the Clan LPL works with 0.47 - add range, weight and heat to the mix - and they are equal as well.

So the only difference if there is some might be the option to fire 3 vs 2 without Ghost Heat.

Although there is the Clan ER-MLAS with 0.44 and you can fire 6 (0.44*6*7 > 0.48*3*11) and 6tons vs 21tons and 36 heat vs 21 heat.

Hi I'm ghost heat, I let IS fire 3x large lasers rather than 2x clan.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Karl Streiger, on 10 May 2017 - 12:33 AM, said:

OK first all of you need to look the facts in the eye - here you have some facts

I can also provide some nice picture of the 3 Large Beam Lasers - but i have missed to add descriptions to the axes.
People might get the wrong clues

Spoiler

This is not showing the performance - its shows the aggregate of player numbers
You see the accuracy and the ability to deal damage is first a gaussian curve - second skill when it comes to shooting is a illusion.
The peak is just the number - more important would have been the peak and its position on the X-axis.

Only 58 players but from the full spectrum - pitty i only have the stats - i wish i could get a look in PGIs database.

however those 3 Large Beam Lasers are equal when it comes to player performance - each weapon deals ~46% of its damage per shot of course the damage per tick is identical - so to call Clan ER Large Laser bad because of their longer duration is a joke.

Speaking of Large Lasers - the IS LPL has a damage value of 0.48 where as the Clan LPL works with 0.47 - add range, weight and heat to the mix - and they are equal as well.

So the only difference if there is some might be the option to fire 3 vs 2 without Ghost Heat.

Although there is the Clan ER-MLAS with 0.44 and you can fire 6 (0.44*6*7 > 0.48*3*11) and 6tons vs 21tons and 36 heat vs 21 heat.

Really though, what are these stats, and why are these accuracy values not even half? Who are you even getting this data from?

We're talking balance here, as in balance between hard stats and values when put on mechs so that each has similar levels of performance or has its own pros and cons in specific that lead to being equal over all.

What we aren't talking about is some half baked potato tier stats and how balance works in the underhive.

In general people aren't missing any of the beam duration with LPL, and for the most part that damage is all focused into one component. The C-ERLL takes nearly 3 times the beam duration, giving the enemy a long time to spread the damage, so even though you don't miss (unless they just move into cover) the damage is being spread to 3-5 components. Not to mention C-ERLL and IS LPL don't even compare in role, and Clans get ghost heat on firing 3 C-ERLL.

The closest thing to IS LPL on the clan side would be the CERML or the CMPL, both of which are outranged by the LPL and both of which are much less damage efficient. What the Clans are winning in is being able to pump out large amounts of easily spread damage for very high heat levels and relatively low weight put in the weapons themselves. IS win in being able to get damage where they want it, win in trades, and generate low heat per shot. Clans tend to be best against people of low skill, as they don't spread the damage they take well and don't react fast enough for even a 2 second beam duration to matter. IS weapons tend to work best against higher skill opponents who are actively trying to twist and who react quickly to even seeing an enemy peek over a ridge.

[Templar Dane]

Mcgral18, on 10 May 2017 - 01:01 AM, said:

Almost like those Clam Apologists...

You're smoke jag. In a unit dropping 12vPUG on the clan side? Saying that the reason your 12vPUG is winning is because you have better mechs?

Edited by Templar Dane, 10 May 2017 - 08:48 AM.

[Gyrok]

Dakota1000, on 10 May 2017 - 08:32 AM, said:

The closest thing to IS LPL on the clan side would be the CERML or the CMPL, both of which are outranged by the LPL and both of which are much less damage efficient.

To be fair, since the range nerf, the closest thing that underperforms the IS LPL is the Clan LPL. With 10% range quirk and a range module, the IS LPL has greater max range than a CLPL with range module. The CLPL also burns twice as long at the same range for a marginal damage advantage.

[Monkey Lover]

Gyrok, on 10 May 2017 - 10:03 AM, said:

To be fair, since the range nerf, the closest thing that underperforms the IS LPL is the Clan LPL. With 10% range quirk and a range module, the IS LPL has greater max range than a CLPL with range module. The CLPL also burns twice as long at the same range for a marginal damage advantage.

LoL i clicked on this thread just because you posted Gyrok you never disappoint. I love your math when it comes to clan weapons and IS weapons

Rules to Gyrok math,
#1,Always calculate IS with top quirks even if its the worst mechs in the game.
#2 Never add in clan quirks because they dont have any somehow.....
#3 Never add in 1 ton target computer with 5% range bonus.
#4 Only count IS modules because clans might not be using them.,,,,
#5 Dont adjust calculations because Clan weapons are lighter, have less slots and do more damage.