330 replies to this topic

[Lupis Volk]

Novakaine, on 06 May 2017 - 07:17 PM, said:

Clanners....




Seriously soooooo why are they extinct?
Your argument is moot and disingenuous.

You know the sooner you children adapt the sooner you'll start winning. But hey keep feeding the Clans to keep your confirmation bias going.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Dryderian, on 06 May 2017 - 07:29 PM, said:

Ahhh, the clan apologists, nice to see you guys and great that your unit did find the sweet spot of dragons and battlemasters, congrats. You realize that many matches in this game are not unit against unit and are not that organized, many groups are formed on the fly. But I appreaciate that IS should from now on play two mechs in a specfic constellation with a leader that calls out targets as yours and be coordianted as yours.

Slow clap...

People complain about two Clan mechs, the Kodiak and Night Gyr, I suggest IS use their two mech OP combo, except this one exists rather than being an exaggeration of endless waves of Kodiaks and Night Gyrs that can't possibly happen with 240 ton drop decks.

Yeonne Greene, on 06 May 2017 - 07:38 PM, said:

Well, even then, the Dragon 1C is still not actually good-good, its geometry is still a huge drawback. I've had that one for quite a long time. I'll still take a Rifleman over it more often than not, since the DRG doesn't come into its own unless the match drags a bit.

Are you all too sure about that. Dragon's hitboxes were changed awhile back to make the STs very large, similar to the Marauder and Stalker, making them pretty bad for XL engines, which is why many long time Dragon users stopped using them.

What people didn't realize was that with an STD engine you can full deadside with it as if you were a Crab/Marauder/Stalker and now you have armor superior to the Marauders. (I am running 95 CT armor frontally on mine with 70 on each side torso).

[Y E O N N E]

Dakota1000, on 06 May 2017 - 07:52 PM, said:

Are you all too sure about that. Dragon's hitboxes were changed awhile back to make the STs very large, similar to the Marauder and Stalker, making them pretty bad for XL engines, which is why many long time Dragon users stopped using them.

Yes, because I've been using that particular Dragon for a long time. Running a STD on it also makes you too slow for the mediocre firepower you can carry. You'll also just get legged if you try to sword-and-board like that.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Yeonne Greene, on 06 May 2017 - 07:55 PM, said:

Yes, because I've been using that particular Dragon for a long time. Running a STD on it also makes you too slow for the mediocre firepower you can carry. You'll also just get legged if you try to sword-and-board like that.

Its the same firepower I use on my Thunderbolt but better quirks for defense and offense and higher torso mounts and it goes the same speed at 75kph.

I don't see how it could be worse.

EDIT:

Tried it out, you were in the match with me. I got to about 82% HP, took a full burn alpha from a Warhammer and didn't even get out of yellow HP (I did spread damage). Its considerably tankier than my Thunderbolt and much more so than my Hellbringer for that matter.

The Dragon still didn't even have the last skill unlocked in basics, so it was a little hot with the map being Caustic, so I didn't shoot a few times when I had open shots (though I had a team mate near and the enemy was open so I didn't need to shoot him and risk dying while shutdown). Otherwise I could fire quite a few times before I had to stop to cool even on Caustic with no elites.

Edited by Dakota1000, 06 May 2017 - 08:10 PM.

[Papaspud]

Ah yes, the old " clan pilots are just better" argument- never heard that before. hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Hope it helps your e-peen thinking so.

[Mystere]

Dryderian, on 06 May 2017 - 07:29 PM, said:

Ahhh, the clan apologists, nice to see you guys and great that your unit did find the sweet spot of dragons and battlemasters, congrats. You realize that many matches in this game are not unit against unit and are not that organized, many groups are formed on the fly. But I appreaciate that IS should from now on play two mechs in a specfic constellation with a leader that calls out targets as yours and be coordianted as yours.

Slow clap...

Did you just complain about fighting organized players in a game mode designed for organized play?

This 100% solo player gives you a slow clap as well.

[Y E O N N E]

Dakota1000, on 06 May 2017 - 07:57 PM, said:

Its the same firepower I use on my Thunderbolt but better quirks for defense and offense and higher torso mounts and it goes the same speed at 75kph.

I don't see how it could be worse.

Because the hit-boxes are obnoxious. The change to them was bad, it made it far easier to XL-check than before, where you could swing the CT around to cover the sides.

Because two of your four good hard-points are really low.

Because rate of fire doesn't buy you anything when 50 PPFLD is going to smack you in the side.

Because if you are running a STD, you are going slow enough to easily leg.

Yes, it tanks like a god...when most people are only aiming center mass. If they have any trigger discipline at all, those huge boxes to the side are juicy targets.

[El Bandito]

Dakota1000, on 06 May 2017 - 06:37 PM, said:

This forum generally asks that any well performing Clan mech be nerfed, as we saw with the Kodiak, Summoner (really though, a 70 tonner who's main claim to fame was 2 ERPPCs?), Huntsman, and Hunchback IIC just to name some recent examples.

That's cause thanks to Clan whining, viable IS mechs such as Marauders, Warhammers, Black Knights, and Grasshoppers were nerfed, and their sizes were increased.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 May 2017 - 08:15 PM.

[Nighthawk513]

Yeonne Greene, on 06 May 2017 - 08:08 PM, said:

Yes, it tanks like a god...when most people are only aiming center mass. If they have any trigger discipline at all, those huge boxes to the side are juicy targets.

Except he is running it standard engine, so after you dump about 100 damage into a single component and he doesn't fall over, you have to dump another 100+ into the CT to kill it. That's assuming no twisting. So 300+ damage tanked by one mech if they twist. Times 12.
Let's assume that after the first one, the other team figures it out and aims CT. Assuming twisting, a component pilot should tank 200-300 damage. Times 12. 3 rounds in a row. You can just wear down the clans. No way they can sustain vs that unless the IS does something stupid.

Edit: And don't forget that is after a wave of battlemasters. So they should have already lost a lot of mechs.

Edited by Nighthawk513, 06 May 2017 - 08:20 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Yeonne Greene, on 06 May 2017 - 08:08 PM, said:

Because the hit-boxes are obnoxious. The change to them was bad, it made it far easier to XL-check than before, where you could swing the CT around to cover the sides.

Because two of your four good hard-points are really low.

Because rate of fire doesn't buy you anything when 50 PPFLD is going to smack you in the side.

Because if you are running a STD, you are going slow enough to easily leg.

Yes, it tanks like a god...when most people are only aiming center mass. If they have any trigger discipline at all, those huge boxes to the side are juicy targets.

The huge boxes on Timber Wolves and the huge humps on Night Gyrs are also huge juicy targets to hit, but they have less health than my Dragon's side torsos and if they lose one they get penalties. Meanwhile I draw a target on my deadside for people to shoot and hope they focus it.

Also while 2 of the hardpoints are low, 2 of them are high and I only use 3 weapons, so 2/3s of my firepower is cockpit level. Its just like my 6 ERML Hellbringer with 4 torso guns and 2 in the arm but much tankier, colder running, and half beam durations.

The hitbox change made it far easier to XL check, but that's a good thing if you are deadsiding because it makes your CT practically impossible to hit if you twist fully. I'm a veteran Centurion and Crab Pilot so it fits me like a glove and I'm used to shielding a side from my Hellbringer having all its firepower in one side.

If the Dragon is slow and easy to leg then every heavy mech is slow and easy to leg, I'm moving 75 and have maxed leg armor and high structure boosts to the legs, its as tanky as the 75 tonners in the leg department.

Nighthawk513, on 06 May 2017 - 08:16 PM, said:

Except he is running it standard engine, so after you dump about 100 damage into a single component and he doesn't fall over, you have to dump another 100+ into the CT to kill it. That's assuming no twisting. So 300+ damage tanked by one mech if they twist. Times 12.
Let's assume that after the first one, the other team figures it out and aims CT. Assuming twisting, a component pilot should tank 200-300 damage. Times 12. 3 rounds in a row. You can just wear down the clans. No way they can sustain vs that unless the IS does something stupid.

Note that by dead siding your CT takes about 40% damage and 60% is absorbed by the destroyed side torso, this is assuming that they don't also go through the destroyed arm's nub (by aiming for those "juicy STs") and end up only dealing 25% to the CT.

Total CT armor and structure is 145 minimum damage to kill me frontally.

If I fully deadside it takes:

34 arm armor (I only have 14 armor on it and it gets a +20 quirk) and 30 structure
98 frontal RT armor+structure

so 162 damage so far then lets say they get a mix of CT hits and ST absorption and are dealing on average 50% damage to me

so 145*2 = 290 + 162 from the arm and torso: 452 total health they would have to plow through to kill me if I don't also shield with my arm that has a single gun in it before I die.

Good luck killing me quickly.

Edited by Dakota1000, 06 May 2017 - 08:25 PM.

[iLLcapitan]

El Bandito, on 06 May 2017 - 08:14 PM, said:

That's cause thanks to Clan whining, viable IS mechs such as Marauders, Warhammers, Black Knights, and Grasshoppers were nerfed, and their sizes were increased.

Lame excuse, rly. My warhammer does just fine, its maybe not OP anymore but you cant nerf that mech into beeing bad because its inherently so good. Maybe try a battlemaster 2c for a change and realise its unparalled potential rule of CW.

'clan whining' is another example of a unproven, irrelevant and inflammatory claim that keeps derailing these threats. which clanners whined? where? to whom? get real

[Y E O N N E]

Dakota1000, on 06 May 2017 - 08:17 PM, said:

The huge boxes on Timber Wolves and the huge humps on Night Gyrs are also huge juicy targets to hit, but they have less health than my Dragon's side torsos and if they lose one they get penalties. Meanwhile I draw a target on my deadside for people to shoot and hope they focus it.

Yes, the TBR has crappy hitboxes, as bad as the Dragon. I've been saying that since forever. The only things that make that 'Mech work are the cXL and the fact that it can do PPC+Gauss pop-tarting to minimize exposure. Otherwise, it's mediocre.

The Night Gyr bumps are not torso, they are arms. Not comparable. To wit, the cockpit on the Gyr is at the top and the guns are all just under it, even the arm ones, so it can ridge extremely well.

Quote

Also while 2 of the hardpoints are low, 2 of them are high and I only use 3 weapons, so 2/3s of my firepower is cockpit level. Its just like my 6 ERML Hellbringer with 4 torso guns and 2 in the arm but much tankier, colder running, and half beam durations.

Quote

The hitbox change made it far easier to XL check, but that's a good thing if you are deadsiding because it makes your CT practically impossible to hit if you twist fully. I'm a veteran Centurion and Crab Pilot so it fits me like a glove and I'm used to shielding a side from my Hellbringer having all its firepower in one side.

Notice how meta the Centurions and Crabs aren't?

Quote

If the Dragon is slow and easy to leg then every heavy mech is slow and easy to leg, I'm moving 75 and have maxed leg armor and high structure boosts to the legs, its as tanky as the 75 tonners in the leg department.

No, because not every 'Mech has to expose as much as the Dragon to fire a potent salvo.

If you really want to see something neat, though, try running the 1C with 3x ERLL or a pair of ERPPC, a giant XL (325+), and 20 DHS, and hang out at 700+ meters. That is how you use that 'Mech. That's where its niche really is. A mix of those, some Grasshoppers, and some Battlemasters will absolutely demolish anything trying to cross the field on any of the larger maps in CW.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

iLLcapitan, on 06 May 2017 - 08:22 PM, said:

Lame excuse, rly. My warhammer does just fine, its maybe not OP anymore but you cant nerf that mech into beeing bad because its inherently so good. Maybe try a battlemaster 2c for a change and realise its unparalled potential rule of CW.

'clan whining' is another example of a unproven, irrelevant and inflammatory claim that keeps derailing these threats. which clanners whined? where? to whom? get real

Honestly, I've always said that the Black Knight nerf (among others before the rescale happened) was unwarranted, back in that day before the nerf a Black Knight could take out the CT of a Timber Wolf before a Timber Wolf could take out a single side torso of the Black Knight assuming no damage spread. Timber Wolf just had range advantage.

Since then though LPL and ERML range has been nerfed so its more evened out.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 06 May 2017 - 07:46 PM, said:

He may be talking about the fact that Structure Quirks don't show up on the Paperdoll

IE, that Crimson Red Fatlas actually has 20+ HP left
It gets annoying. Of course, not the Fatlas, but maybe the BM2C, a potent robot

So it takes one more alpha, big whoop. Do love the hyperbole people stretch to to try to push agendas around here. Is it any wonder folks don't get listened to?

[Lupis Volk]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 May 2017 - 08:28 PM, said:

So it takes one more alpha, big whoop. Do love the hyperbole people stretch to to try to push agendas around here. Is it any wonder folks don't get listened to?

AT this point Bish i get more enjoyment and frustration on this forum than i do in game. Hmm be careful i might just aim to dethrone you one day.

[Bishop Steiner]

El Bandito, on 06 May 2017 - 08:14 PM, said:

That's cause thanks to Clan whining, viable IS mechs such as Marauders, Warhammers, Black Knights, and Grasshoppers were nerfed, and their sizes were increased.

*facepalm*

and reasoning like this is the OTHER reason ......... *SMH*

Lupis Volk, on 06 May 2017 - 08:29 PM, said:

AT this point Bish i get more enjoyment and frustration on this forum than i do in game. Hmm be careful i might just aim to dethrone you one day.

feel free. Not a throne I took by design, but by boredom. And because I could forum post at work, or when my computer is busted (like now), whereas I can't play the game in either scenario.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Yeonne Greene, on 06 May 2017 - 08:27 PM, said:

If you really want to see something neat, though, try running the 1C with 3x ERLL or a pair of ERPPC, a giant XL (325+), and 20 DHS, and hang out at 700+ meters. That is how you use that 'Mech. That's where its niche really is. A mix of those, some Grasshoppers, and some Battlemasters will absolutely demolish anything trying to cross the field on any of the larger maps in CW.

So we agree that Dragons are great but for different reasons. Woo for being both versatile and great in each role.

I prefer skirmishing and I don't want to use millions of cbills buying a 325 XL right now though. But what you are saying does mean that the Dragons will be very powerful on maps such as Boreal and the quickplay maps such as Alpine and Polar while also being able to use the builds that I suggest in more confined maps such as Forge and Emerald.

Guess I'll need 6 Dragons and 2 Battlemaster 2Cs. Well At least I'll be making some millions during this event and selling some modules before skill trees drop.

[El Bandito]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 May 2017 - 08:30 PM, said:

*facepalm*

and reasoning like this is the OTHER reason ......... *SMH*

You have to admit that without those nerfs, there would have been less imbalance and less need for tonnage difference.

iLLcapitan, on 06 May 2017 - 08:22 PM, said:

Lame excuse, rly. My warhammer does just fine, its maybe not OP anymore but you cant nerf that mech into beeing bad because its inherently so good. Maybe try a battlemaster 2c for a change and realise its unparalled potential rule of CW.

'clan whining' is another example of a unproven, irrelevant and inflammatory claim that keeps derailing these threats. which clanners whined? where? to whom? get real

I personally use BLR-2C liberally, but mostly thanks to increased IS tonnage. As for Clan whines, they are in the archives, pre-IS nerfs. Go read them.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 May 2017 - 08:38 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Dakota1000, on 06 May 2017 - 08:33 PM, said:

So we agree that Dragons are great but for different reasons. Woo for being both versatile and great in each role.

I prefer skirmishing and I don't want to use millions of cbills buying a 325 XL right now though. But what you are saying does mean that the Dragons will be very powerful on maps such as Boreal and the quickplay maps such as Alpine and Polar while also being able to use the builds that I suggest in more confined maps such as Forge and Emerald.

Guess I'll need 6 Dragons and 2 Battlemaster 2Cs. Well At least I'll be making some millions during this event and selling some modules before skill trees drop.

Grim, Polar, Alpine, Tourmaline, Forest, and Borreal are its best maps for the ERLL build.

The Dragon's strongest roles are front-forward. Almost all of the 'Mechs I play are front-forward types: Catapult, Marauder, Ebon Jag, Dragon, Locust, Mist Lynx. This is my thing. Dead-siding 'Mechs like these is wasting an entire side of armor, you actually end up more durable if you just XL it and then wiggle. The Dragon doesn't do well at mid-range in organized play because mid-range is the domain of PPFLD. The nature of PPFLD, especially pop-tarts, is that it is unpredictable, and so any 'Mech with gigantic side torsos is at-risk from unexpected flanking shots. That's partly why Warhammers are preferable to Marauders, Night Gyrs are preferable to Timberwolves, etc. That big schnoz does it no favors for anything other than push-type roles, where it allows you to continue firing while still spreading damage.

If you want a 60 ton 'Mech for closer in, though, I would actually greatly suggest the humble RFL-3N using MedLas and UACs. It's KDK-3 firepower in a 60% package.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Yeonne Greene, on 06 May 2017 - 08:52 PM, said:

Grim, Polar, Alpine, Tourmaline, Forest, and Borreal are its best maps for the ERLL build.

The Dragon's strongest roles are front-forward. Almost all of the 'Mechs I play are front-forward types: Catapult, Marauder, Ebon Jag, Dragon, Locust, Mist Lynx. This is my thing. Dead-siding 'Mechs like these is wasting an entire side of armor, you actually end up more durable if you just XL it and then wiggle. The Dragon doesn't do well at mid-range in organized play because mid-range is the domain of PPFLD. The nature of PPFLD, especially pop-tarts, is that it is unpredictable, and so any 'Mech with gigantic side torsos is at-risk from unexpected flanking shots. That's partly why Warhammers are preferable to Marauders, Night Gyrs are preferable to Timberwolves, etc. That big schnoz does it no favors for anything other than push-type roles, where it allows you to continue firing while still spreading damage.

If you want a 60 ton 'Mech for closer in, though, I would actually greatly suggest the humble RFL-3N using MedLas and UACs. It's KDK-3 firepower in a 60% package.

All I've ever seen Riflemen do is walk near an enemy and be instantly vaporized from critical side torso loss. You'd have to do quite a bit to sell me on the idea of using one of those things for close up work, especially using medium lasers with their nearly second long duration along with UAC5s so I can stare at the enemy for nearly a full ERML burn.

Also how would a Rifleman be any better than a Dragon for up close or mid range work when the Dragon has both defensive *and* offensive quirks and hitboxes that are pretty similar?

Lastly, deadsiding comes out a bit better than full torso damage spreading with an XL in terms of how much damage you can take since letting damage go through a destroyed component reduces the damage heavily. Meanwhile your XL build cannot lose a side torso so that it may absorb damage.

Ontop of that you can still spread damage to your main gun side once your CT has started weakening after your deadside has been destroyed to further your lifespan, so you aren't even getting that over the deadside build.

Centurions and Crabs aren't meta because they're just a couple of 50 ton mediums built for short range with some low mounts. Dragon is a 60 tonner with 75 tonner defense, most of its firepower is high mounted, and it brings triple LPL. I've done battles where I've taken over 500 damage in my Centurion through deadsiding. I will do unspeakable things with a mech as armored and with the hitboxes that the Dragon has.