953 replies to this topic

[Znozoic]

I can not believe that riot people in lol have better skill trees than mwo!

[whiteboy007]

I tried the first iteration of this "skill tree" idea on the PTS. I did not like it. I read other players' reviews and most of them voiced the same concerns I had. So, I kept my mouth shut. Thinking that points I would like to make had been made and SURELY PGI would listen to their player base.

Oh how I wrong I was.

I patched today (work, family and BJJ keep me busy lately) and logged in to check it out. I picked my favorite mech my AWS-8Q and went into the skill nodes to spec it out. I went through all the clicking to unlock the energy heat gen, range and cooldown stuff. And in there was the first irritation. I had to click on a node for laser duration just so I could continue down to more cooldown, range and velocity for my PPC's. No biggie, I thought, just one point, shouldn't matter.

Then on to sensors. I get most of the way down before I see that I cannot get all of Radar Deprivation unless I take 360 targeting or target decay. Both of which are meaningless to a PPC mech.

So then I go into Operations for Heat containment and Cool Running. Uh, no, no you can't have those unless you take Hill Climb or Speed Retention for your Awesome. Because as everyone knows an Awesome needs Speed Retention and Hill Climb over Heat Containment or Cool Running.

That's as far as I made it. The first iteration of this skill tree idea was poor and this one isn't much of a step up. If you as developers are going to tout my ability as a player to "customize" each mech to my desired style then don't make me choose things like ******* Hill Climb for an assault mech.

I really like this game, I backed it from day one. I'm a bit of a whale, I own so many mech packs simply because I enjoy Mechwarrior stuff. But it's **** like this that drives me nuts. You guys seem to make it a point not to listen to your player base.

There is no reason to make a convoluted skill tree that takes FAR too long to work through for one mech only to aggravate the player because he/she cannot choose what THEY want. Not what you MAKE THEM GO THROUGH TO GET TO WHAT THEY WANT. It's so simple to break everything into its own branch and let the player take what they want from each. Making me take laser duration on my PPC Awesome isn't going to "balance" the game, or whatever the motivation was.

If you are going to give me a finite amount of choices to "spec" out my mech, don't make me choose things that I do not want. I cannot say it anymore plainly.

[NocturnalBeast]

Horseman, on 18 May 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

Until it turns out - usually on your first match - that your spec doesn't perform as you expected it to, or anywhere near. Another session with the tree to replan your node purchases so that they address the deficiencies.

If you had read my previous statements, I say that PGI should at least give everyone one free respec for each mech.

Duilliath, on 18 May 2017 - 01:41 PM, said:

No offense, but I think you missed my point. I wasn't referring to the viability of mechs under the new system. I was referring to the time required to skill them up. If it took me "X" amount of time to skill up three mechs, including both the required xp and c-bills to master them, then one would expect to be able to skill up three mechs in the same or at least similar amount of time under the new system. As the previous post stated, though, you only get one mech skilled for the same amount of effort now. The "Rule of Three" was admittedly annoying, but instead of simply allowing us to pick which three mechs we wanted to spend our time skilling, they've effectively tripled the grind.

Yes, it does take much longer to completely skill up one mech now (if you do not have any GXP, C-BILLS, XP...), but the trade-off is that you can now tailor the skill bonuses for your build, instead of just having the same bonuses for three different variants.

[Reno Blade]

I really wonder about people leaving/refunding for such a small change.
Gameplay is hardly different and the whole ST only changes your stats by 10-15% on average which is not much.

The ST is easy as heck.
Cost is no problem, most people swim in GSP and GXP now, but they whine even MORE?
Hell, if you have 6000 GSP for about 20 mechs you can "try" out 30 extra SP per mech!
YES, you can actually use the extra GSP to customize whatever you like and all the GXP will help you to "respec" the few notes you might want to switch again and again.

And even if you don't know what to play, you can always try out firepower+survival or firepower+mobility.
With the few specialized nodes you can basically choose most of the ST without taking your weapon loadout into account AND have same bonus to boats as to mixed builds (10% cd, 10-15% heat and 10-15% range works on everything).

Here is my baseline loadout https://tarogato-mwo...4c-43e7e0e101f4

My advice:
1. play 1-2 games without any skill with your prefered/old/new loadout (best together with friends).
2. feel how movement, heat, sensors and weapons work while you don't have any skills.
3. think what you like to push the most: Weapons, armor, sensors, heat-efficiency, mobility
4. skill your most important parts first and see how much % bonus you will get at the end
5. then decide if the % is worth it, or if you switch some points to get more % out of your points.

maybe keep 10-20 points open for now and do another 2-3 rounds before finishing up.
Then you don't need to change anything for a while.

Repeat for your top 5 mechs per week and you will never feel you have to "work" too much/too long in the mechlab!
And then remember, customization is already half the fun of the game. It just got one level higher.

[Jaegon]

WhiteBoy007 nails one of my main irritations though. It's a system that feels like it's about ultimate super-fine detail customization, but really all it's doing is forcing this scattering of random upgrades on you that you have to take in order to get to the ones you care about for a particular build. Having to try and path through the minimum amount of random crap needed to find the ones you're trying to activate is really frustrating.

Sitting here trying to avoid being forced into some weapon upgrades for weapons I'm not even carrying. Come on.
It has all the additional complexity it would take to make a really fine detail mod system, but all the drawbacks of just taking chunks of junk you don't actually want.

Edited by Jaegon, 18 May 2017 - 02:57 PM.

[Horseman]

Ed Steele, on 18 May 2017 - 02:45 PM, said:

If you had read my previous statements, I say that PGI should at least give everyone one free respec for each mech.

I'm referring to the time spent on redoing your spec based on your in-game performance, not on the in-game costs of it. "You spec your mech once, save it and then play all you want." is the theoretical ideal outcome, but practically you will respec most mechs at least once to some extent.

[MovinTarget]

Some people may know this, but it is helpful if you don't...

You can set up the skills how you want and BEFORE YOU COMMIT you can close the skill window and look at your mech in mech lab to see how the current skills would affect your overall stats.

If you change your speed tweak, you'll be able to see your new top speed before committing to the skills, for example.

Mousing over different weapons (it may not work for weapons equipped, but from the list on the right) will show how your bonuses will affect them.

Its all still hypothetical as far as how they will perform but it allows you to get more of a "big picture"

As long as you don't leave that mech in the mechlab you can bounce back-n-forth to check your skill choices.

Edited by MovinTarget, 18 May 2017 - 03:35 PM.

[NocturnalBeast]

Horseman, on 18 May 2017 - 03:23 PM, said:

I'm referring to the time spent on redoing your spec based on your in-game performance, not on the in-game costs of it. "You spec your mech once, save it and then play all you want." is the theoretical ideal outcome, but practically you will respec most mechs at least once to some extent.

Of course the system is designed so that impatient people who change their specs often will end up buying MC to speed the process up, it is a "freemium" game after all, but you do have the option of grinding it out for free if you want.

Edited by Ed Steele, 18 May 2017 - 03:33 PM.

[Arkhangel]

think something a lot of people aren't realizing? make your build, THEN spec to it. don't skill first and then make your loadout. it'll be a LOT easier on you.

[Fox the Apprentice]

Horseman, on 18 May 2017 - 03:23 PM, said:

I'm referring to the time spent on redoing your spec based on your in-game performance, not on the in-game costs of it. "You spec your mech once, save it and then play all you want." is the theoretical ideal outcome, but practically you will respec most mechs at least once to some extent.

Especially once the new tech is out!

Edited by Fox the Apprentice, 18 May 2017 - 03:43 PM.

[MovinTarget]

Arkhangel, on 18 May 2017 - 03:34 PM, said:

think something a lot of people aren't realizing? make your build, THEN spec to it. don't skill first and then make your loadout. it'll be a LOT easier on you.

B-b-b-but the horse is supposed to push the cart...


...right?

[AC]

I don't mean to be rude, but the engine decouple is what your early closed beta testers told you from the start! Imagine how many more customers you would still have if you actually listened to your test group early on. I haven't played for months, nor has a hoard of other people I know. I am going to update and give it a try, but it might be a case of too little too late I am afraid.

[Rodrigo Martinez]

Now I realised that the new system is a giant grinding if compared to previous one. If I want to change my build I have to invest more skill points or exp. Or I need to own 2-3 mechs of same chassis. I like to change builds to try something new but now it won't work well as it was. Sadly, but no MWO for me in near future.

[Rodrigo Martinez]

MovinTarget, on 18 May 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:

Some people may know this, but it is helpful if you don't...

You can set up the skills how you want and BEFORE YOU COMMIT you can close the skill window and look at your mech in mech lab to see how the current skills would affect your overall stats.

If you change your speed tweak, you'll be able to see your new top speed before committing to the skills, for example.

Mousing over different weapons (it may not work for weapons equipped, but from the list on the right) will show how your bonuses will affect them.

Its all still hypothetical as far as how they will perform but it allows you to get more of a "big picture"

As long as you don't leave that mech in the mechlab you can bounce back-n-forth to check your skill choices.

And I'll see only numbers. How it was before: I make a build, go in testing grounds, then in quickplay to try it there. If I don't like it or feel that there is something wrong I change it or just strip mech and return to old build. Also, I don't need 78k exp to get max performance of my mech, only 2 basic and one elite. And I can't do any mistake in the old system. But now every my move can cost me time and cbills.

[MovinTarget]

Rodrigo Martinez, on 18 May 2017 - 05:15 PM, said:

And I'll see only numbers. How it was before: I make a build, go in testing grounds, then in quickplay to try it there. If I don't like it or feel that there is something wrong I change it or just strip mech and return to old build. Also, I don't need 78k exp to get max performance of my mech, only 2 basic and one elite. And I can't do any mistake in the old system. But now every my move can cost me time and cbills.

You can always pick the skills that emulate the old skills. Then you don't have to worry about mistakes.

Look, we all are going to make mistakes with this system and i am all for them giving us free respecs for at least a time, i am just not sure "choices are bad because i might make a mistake" is the most valid argument against customization.

What you are describing, i don't understand b/c you were stuck with the same 13 skills on all mechs and you had to take them all if you wanted maximum effect (ok the extra slot was optional). So i am not sure how what you are describing has changed.

Before you couldn't make a skill mistake b/c you had no choices except the order you unlocked them to some degree.

[Dee Eight]

Rodrigo Martinez, on 18 May 2017 - 04:57 PM, said:

Now I realised that the new system is a giant grinding if compared to previous one. If I want to change my build I have to invest more skill points or exp. Or I need to own 2-3 mechs of same chassis. I like to change builds to try something new but now it won't work well as it was. Sadly, but no MWO for me in near future.

If you're playing the mech already...you'll have all the XP to re-skill it anyway just sitting there piling up. Every one of my mechs had extra XP on it after I mastered them. MANY had loads of it, enough in a few cases to use for several more copies of that variant just from historical xp conversions.

[CW Starlord]

OMG it's going to take a crap load of work to re-meta all of my 148 mechs
is it worth all that time. I JUST WANT TO PLAY. Not spend hours an hours re-configing

[MovinTarget]

CW Starlord, on 18 May 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

OMG it's going to take a crap load of work to re-meta all of my 148 mechs
is it worth all that time. I JUST WANT TO PLAY. Not spend hours an hours re-configing

One mech at a time... seriously, once you get the hang of it, its that tough...

[Dee Eight]

CW Starlord, on 18 May 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

OMG it's going to take a crap load of work to re-meta all of my 148 mechs
is it worth all that time. I JUST WANT TO PLAY. Not spend hours an hours re-configing

Considering the meta changes all the time with every patch anyway... what difference does it REALLY make? Do you actively play every one of those 148 mechs ? I somehow doubt it. For example, I have 10 Kodiaks... which I haven't used except in the previous skill tree PTS's and when the last round of champion build submissions was going on a few months ago. Out of 239 mechs, at least 150 which haven't been played in six months to a year.

Edited by Dee Eight, 18 May 2017 - 06:12 PM.

[Rodrigo Martinez]

MovinTarget, on 18 May 2017 - 05:23 PM, said:

You can always pick the skills that emulate the old skills. Then you don't have to worry about mistakes.

Look, we all are going to make mistakes with this system and i am all for them giving us free respecs for at least a time, i am just not sure "choices are bad because i might make a mistake" is the most valid argument against customization.

What you are describing, i don't understand b/c you were stuck with the same 13 skills on all mechs and you had to take them all if you wanted maximum effect (ok the extra slot was optional). So i am not sure how what you are describing has changed.

Before you couldn't make a skill mistake b/c you had no choices except the order you unlocked them to some degree.

Please, can you give me a scheme to get all old skills? Best if it's will be pictures.

I'm sure only in the operations tree, where I pick up everything except 5 nodes. It's cool run and heat cont. 20 nodes, 16000exp vs 1750 in past to get normal heat management. And now only 71 node left. Even with boats I still have to choose how much I should invest in weaponry: full or no? Will it be enought or no? After that I have a choise between mobility and surv. I need to test these things live to get opinion is it worth or no. Me, personally. Then sensors. Can some mech benefit from the rad. depr. while others mechs not? I think it's possible. My mech can have JJ. Too many variants to try but I have to choose wisely or grind-grind-grind.

And if I have new mech and no GSP. In past 1750GXP was enought to start playing any mech. How much GXP I need now to get old basic heat gent numbers? Add engine desync. For me, only for me, it's too big effort and I don't see big advanteges over the old system atm.