308 replies to this topic

[Vladosteron]

Yay. For i like the tinkering and possible Diversity on the battlefield.
Could have been a little slimmed down though.

[Dollar Bill]

Flip40, on 17 May 2017 - 11:30 PM, said:

Nay.

Pros

• Choice via skill trees. Old skills were just flat "I played my mech more, therefore it is better", here you have choice of what exactly you mech is better at.

Cons

• Ridiculously convoluted. Many players (myself included) do not want to spend 30 minutes to figure out how to best spec my mech before I can play it. I have barely played since patch almost solely for this reason.
  
• Cost to respec (i.e. reactivating nodes. Cost to unlock a new node for the first time that you might need in your respec is fine). Why stop players from trying new things as often as they like?
  
• UI is very unclear (in part caused by, but not the same as, con #1). I would use Path of Exile's skill tree for comparison, which groups nodes into clusters of similar type, and more unique / powerful nodes are denoted by increasing levels of size and notable design differences so they are easier to find. All node clusters have a "highway" route of skills that can be navigated to each node. What we have here is really just a jumbled mess of skills.

Thoughts on improvements

While people often don't like cross-game comparison, there is lots of lessons to be learned from other games here.

On the simplification / streamline end, lets look at WoW. They have progressively simplified skill trees and skills, streamlining your choices to active abilities, or skills very closely tied to how certain abilities work.

Things we can learn:

• Passive skills trees are not fun. Unfortunately, not much we can do here because of restrictions on how the game works.
  
• Many players are not interested in making 80+ skill point decisions. 10-12 is much more manageable. Not everyone is a master strategist. Of course, this perhaps screws the strategists who love this kind of thing, but you at least need something accessible to players who are not (which is most people, though not necessarily in this player base, I don't have stats on that).
  
• Let people respec for free for goodness sake. I really can't think of a good reason to put a cost on this.

On the other hand, if we want to keep it complex, lets look at the Path of Exile skill tree. Like I mentioned earlier, they have made it easy to navigate by using collections of nodes, grouped by type, and very clear UI design highlighting these groups, the paths between groups, and which nodes have more "weight" or uniqueness than others.


Things we can learn:

• Make your tree an actual tree instead of a mess of skills with no clear path through.
  
• Grouping nodes by type helps users navigate a huge number of nodes to find the ones they want.
  
• Adding nice color or other effects to special nodes helps users find the big ones (laser / missiles, etc. would benefit from an overall color to the node to help identify, not just a tiny icon).

And lastly, on neither hand, why did they add a skill tree to the game anyways? Does it really benefit this game? What is the point of buying other mechs when I can just add the optimal quirks for almost any build on to my line of Timber Wolfs? The things were already ridiculous, but now I don't even have incentive to buy new IS mechs to play with different quirks. I mean sure, we get the strategy of specializing our mechs, but how many people really wanted that?


This is a FPS / MechSim, not an RPG. I can barely even get any of my friends to play because building a good mech loadout is not exactly easy for a new and inexperienced player. Do we really think these people are going to want to worry about choosing skills for their mechs from an overwhelmingly large selection of nodes, and 7 different trees? I don't think so.

Even worse, the whole idea of statistical bonuses added to a mech based on how much you have used it is directly counter to PvP gameplay balance. Trying to implement this system forces you to walk an impossible line, choosing between creating bonuses that are worth investing in, and also having to be sure these bonuses do not overwhelm those without them. Of course, the only reason players will invest in skill points is to gain an advantage over other players, and thus your problem. I do believe WoW actually recently completely removed higher level PvP gear because people decided being able to crush other players just because you did good in arena sucked and was anti-competitive. New players will have a hard time sticking with the game if they have to spend X number of hours before their mech is able to compete. On the other hand, if your skilled out mech is no better than an unskilled mech, why have a skill tree at all?

At least, that is my opinion. Sorry for the 832 word essay.

Don't be sorry. You said what PGI needs to hear. Only problem is, they don't lessen to reasonable common sense. They're only able to hear the subjective tier 2 and under White Knights who kisses PGI's a$$ and tells them they're great.

[- Pestilence -]

Yay. Now i can spend even more time in mechlab (this is what i like the most in MWO) .

[Reno Blade]

Flip40, on 17 May 2017 - 11:30 PM, said:

Nay.

Pros

• Choice via skill trees. Old skills were just flat "I played my mech more, therefore it is better", here you have choice of what exactly you mech is better at.

Cons

• Ridiculously convoluted. Many players (myself included) do not want to spend 30 minutes to figure out how to best spec my mech before I can play it. I have barely played since patch almost solely for this reason.
  
• Cost to respec (i.e. reactivating nodes. Cost to unlock a new node for the first time that you might need in your respec is fine). Why stop players from trying new things as often as they like?
  
• UI is very unclear (in part caused by, but not the same as, con #1). I would use Path of Exile's skill tree for comparison, which groups nodes into clusters of similar type, and more unique / powerful nodes are denoted by increasing levels of size and notable design differences so they are easier to find. All node clusters have a "highway" route of skills that can be navigated to each node. What we have here is really just a jumbled mess of skills.

Thoughts on improvements

While people often don't like cross-game comparison, there is lots of lessons to be learned from other games here.

On the simplification / streamline end, lets look at WoW. They have progressively simplified skill trees and skills, streamlining your choices to active abilities, or skills very closely tied to how certain abilities work.

Things we can learn:

• Passive skills trees are not fun. Unfortunately, not much we can do here because of restrictions on how the game works.
  
• Many players are not interested in making 80+ skill point decisions. 10-12 is much more manageable. Not everyone is a master strategist. Of course, this perhaps screws the strategists who love this kind of thing, but you at least need something accessible to players who are not (which is most people, though not necessarily in this player base, I don't have stats on that).
  
• Let people respec for free for goodness sake. I really can't think of a good reason to put a cost on this.

...

Interesting view on these details.

I think that neither the complexity nor the prices are of real concern and only make the choices have more "consequences".

I left WOW when the talent system got more "dumbed down". WoW (choice 1 of 3 active skills) works only because they "baked in" all the passive talents into the "role" choice (e.g. holy priest vs shadow priest), because the trees were tiered (req. 5 points per level) and you could spec 95% of the talents every time and the last 2-3 skills were usually never choosen.

It might turn out similar way in our skill tree with things like hill climb (being one of the never-used skills), but to reduce the whole tree into wow-style seems not to be a possible option without baking in all passives into some kind of "role" as wow did.

Quote

Even worse, the whole idea of statistical bonuses added to a mech based on how much you have used it is directly counter to PvP gameplay balance. Trying to implement this system forces you to walk an impossible line, choosing between creating bonuses that are worth investing in, and also having to be sure these bonuses do not overwhelm those without them. Of course, the only reason players will invest in skill points is to gain an advantage over other players, and thus your problem.

I do believe WoW actually recently completely removed higher level PvP gear because people decided being able to crush other players just because you did good in arena sucked and was anti-competitive. New players will have a hard time sticking with the game if they have to spend X number of hours before their mech is able to compete. On the other hand, if your skilled out mech is no better than an unskilled mech, why have a skill tree at all?

At least, that is my opinion. Sorry for the 832 word essay.

I also liked the way GW2 gave every PvP player the same level and gear (you get put to lvl 80 even if you are lvl 10.).
But I think for MWO that system would not work.

I've played MPBT: Solaris and MBTP:3025 where you had NO mechlab and only progressed by buying stock mechs (IS tech level1 only).
There you already had some level of balance rock-paper-scissor as some mechs /loadouts/weapons are simply better than others.

To conclude:
I am for adding "Role presets" to the Skill tree that will select all the notes to do a specific "role" (e.g. survivial, scout, skirmish, brawler).
It could be a "simple view" on the Skill tree, while the current nodes are the "advanced view" where you can select nodes separately.

This not only give new players an easy way to select the role before playing, it could also be possible to use this for champion mechs or as default skill set when you buy a new mech.
In addition, this will reduce the amounts of clicks and time you spend in the mechlab.

imho, this would solve a big part of the "problem".

[Hellraiser2k1]

Nay unless there will be a one button push template to apply the settings the mechs had before the patch. Also engine nerfs must be undone.

[Flip40]

Reno Blade, on 18 May 2017 - 12:05 AM, said:

I think that neither the complexity nor the prices are of real concern and only make the choices have more "consequences".

Maybe the cost of respeccing is lower than I realize, but I think it hurts players who haven't yet figured out the system and set up a bad set of skills. Again, I just don't see any good reasons for keeping it, while there are good reasons to remove it.

Reno Blade, on 18 May 2017 - 12:05 AM, said:

I left WOW when the talent system got more "dumbed down". WoW (choice 1 of 3 active skills) works only because they "baked in" all the passive talents into the "role" choice (e.g. holy priest vs shadow priest), because the trees were tiered (req. 5 points per level) and you could spec 95% of the talents every time and the last 2-3 skills were usually never choosen.

It might turn out similar way in our skill tree with things like hill climb (being one of the never-used skills), but to reduce the whole tree into wow-style seems not to be a possible option without baking in all passives into some kind of "role" as wow did.

True, though I would argue that this is very difficult to solve. Often, there is one statistically correct choice, then the cookie cutter skill selection begins (though this usually happens with more complex trees too, just a bit more room to finesse your cookie). If all choices are statistically equal, then why have a choice (to be honest, this paradox is really annoying, but it seems to come up a lot anyways). The trick is to find non-comparable changes and make that your choice. For WoW, they could balance the 3 skills between leveling (permanent 5% speed buff), PvE (less up front damage, but more total damage as an added DoT), and PvP (15% speed boost for 3 seconds). Of course, I'm not fully sure how that could apply here.

Also reducing the tree to a "role" style for MWO is perhaps an oversimplification. I intended to use the examples to analyse why they made their choices, not to imply MWO should follow the example directly.

Reno Blade, on 18 May 2017 - 12:05 AM, said:

I also liked the way GW2 gave every PvP player the same level and gear (you get put to lvl 80 even if you are lvl 10.).
But I think for MWO that system would not work.

I've played MPBT: Solaris and MBTP:3025 where you had NO mechlab and only progressed by buying stock mechs (IS tech level1 only).
There you already had some level of balance rock-paper-scissor as some mechs /loadouts/weapons are simply better than others.

I think you misunderstood me here. Mechlab is good, and the choices made there are nice. What I meant was that, in an identical mech and loadout, a long time player will statistically beat the new player every time, only because he played longer and acquired the skill points (disregarding actual player skill). The GW2 PvP solution is simply that a new and old player in an identical mech (and loadout) will have identical stats. There is no advantage given to the experienced player simply for having played more, allowing for a level playing field where skill will determine the victor.

Another way of looking at it is that your GW / MPBT: Solaris and MBTP:3025 comparison would only work if GW didn't have a variety of weapons (and related skills) for each class to use. The weapons and associated skills in GW are equivalent to the mechlab / loadouts in MWO, and classes are mechs.

Reno Blade, on 18 May 2017 - 12:05 AM, said:

To conclude:
I am for adding "Role presets" to the Skill tree that will select all the notes to do a specific "role" (e.g. survivial, scout, skirmish, brawler).
It could be a "simple view" on the Skill tree, while the current nodes are the "advanced view" where you can select nodes separately.

This not only give new players an easy way to select the role before playing, it could also be possible to use this for champion mechs or as default skill set when you buy a new mech.
In addition, this will reduce the amounts of clicks and time you spend in the mechlab.

imho, this would solve a big part of the "problem".

I agree with this as well. Many of my complaints could be silenced quite a bit by allowing a simple setup for new players or those less interested, and an advanced set up for those so inclined to min-max every little detail. Makes me think of racing games like Forza, where players can tweak tons of different details about the car that I never bothered to touch, but I also never needed to.

Edited by Flip40, 18 May 2017 - 01:30 AM.

[chucklesMuch]

Nay

The nodes on the ui need to be more responsive... well the UI needs a few qol changes... but needing to double click half the time is annoying.

Maybe at another time in my life where I wasn't spending so my time working on complex projects, I would enjoy the challenge... atm the I just want to relax and unwind...

Edited by chucklesMuch, 18 May 2017 - 02:07 AM.

[TWIAFU]

Yea as a general overview and as a whole.

Nay on Skill UI, needs polish.

As an owner of lots of mechs, like a great many other players, the proposition of having to re-skill all those mechs eventually, ug! With that said, some way to make that re-skilling a bit less daunting would be welcomed, Save Skill Loadout as a general thought.

[Arctourus]

Yay!

[N a p e s]

Yay!

I've tinkered with it a bit, and originally the prospect of re-skilling everything seemed overwhelming but I figured I'd do them slowly as I decide to play a certain mech. So far have gotten through 5 and though the initial ones were quite a bit longer it really only takes 5 minutes once you get to know the paths. That being said I've been around for a while and I know how I want to play the builds I have so deciding between going down the survival or mobility trees is a quick decision.

I also tried most of my mechs before applying any points in the skill tree just to get baseline performance and feel for how it handles. After that the choices become easy.

The thing that irked me most was really the fear of getting analysis paralysis... and then chasing all the possibilities to no end. I honestly don't even hate the UI, its not the prettiest thing but its serviceable.

[fiskarsmurfen]

Yay

[Colonel Presumptuous]

DAYLEET, on 17 May 2017 - 09:54 AM, said:

There was a lot more people in game chat that were happy about the skill tree but we have to walk them through the first steps. I wish more people read the forum and patch notes.

This is what i find funny, looking at the forums here you'd think the consensus was split down the middle. Thing is the majority of people in faction chat are happy with it and everyone's talking, theory-crafting and generally helping each other through it. Id say game chat is far more indicative of how the people who are actually playing it feel... which is, apart from a handful, most like it to some degree or more.

[Skave]

I like to use my brain and t customize my mech, that's why I play MWO rather than another FPS.

The skill tree allow me to customize my mech even more so...

Yay.


Altougth, UI could be a lot better by adding color or some kind of filter.

[Steinar Bergstol]

Yay.

[R Valentine]

Who in their right mind thought 91 was a good number? Seriously, with all these fractional percentages you couldn't have combined a few to make the tree a bit slimmer? .75% heat gen? Combine a few of those, make them 1.5% or 3% nodes, and reduce overall SP per mech. Same with CD. Percentages to small. Less nodes, bigger values. No one wants to fill out 91 nodes for 300+ mechs. I'm thinking like 20.

[Haipyng]

Overall, Nay.

The skill trees look too much like...well...trees. Too complicated and too much spending on skillups you don't really want to get to the ones you do. Not enough information or a modeler that you can work with and save without committing your SPs.

Honestly I logged in Tuesday night, fiddled for 40 minutes with the skill trees for one mech, played one match and logged off to play something else. My feeling is to wait for the community to work out the bugs and modelers like Smurfy's to put this together without wasting SPs. I was hoping for something that would draw me in. Instead it put me off.

[R Valentine]

They need to slim down from 91 nodes. That's way too much effort for most people. It's especially discouraging when you're trying to experiment. .75% is not a noticeable amount, so trying to gauge exactly how much heat gen you need is tough, and the respec costs are draining. We're still learning the damn system and PGI is already screwing us. Let us play with it for a bit before you tax the hell out of it.

[Fireeagle]

NO!!!

Sorry but the new skill tree is a horrible mess for the longtime Players- we spent a lot of Money in buying mechs, played a Long time These mechs and now i feel like it is a new game- not the game i wanted to Support with my Money: my Jenner IIC feels like a completley new machine for example...
Many of us have more than 200mechs in their Garage: now imagine how much tim it will take to find the Fitting Setup to have the same Feeling on a mech as before this mess:

At least it would help a lot (not only old veterans but also new Players) if there would be a Option like:
Press here to get the skills similar to old skill tree!!!!

[BigJimJack]

I don't post often in the forums, but I keep up with everything going on in the game. I purposefully waited to see what the skill tree end result was before deciding to comment. After now seeing it and living it I lean more towards the camp of WTH. I get the pilots who love the idea of being able to really tinker with their mechs down to the last detail, but honestly I don't have time for it. I play this game maybe 4-5 hours a week at this point. (real life and stuff keeps it to that.) I have about 40-50 mechs that I like to play on a whim that I now have to go back and respec. Really? I don't have the time or energy for this. Then don't even get me started on needing a separate mech of the same chassis for comp, because you wont have them spec'd out the same way to pug. Then if you don't like the "roll" of your skills the first time around you don't get at least one free respec??!!?? Pretty crappy. Again, this is my opinion and like a-holes we all have them. I am not going to be a naysayer and scream the end is nigh, or quit the game. However, it has definitely tempered me enough to not want to spend money on it for the near future or longer. Anyway. Have good and get give!

BigJimJack

[PyckenZot]

Sure Yay from my side!

Even though I have thousands of clicks before me, I rejoice in the min/maxing excercise I'm offered!