655 replies to this topic

[Mekslayer]

John Frye, on 17 December 2011 - 10:16 AM, said:

Agro mechs and Industrial mechs were unarmed and people did modify them to have weapons and armor (they are mentioned in some of the books - Mercenary's Star comes to mind). However the authors made it clear that those kind of kludge battlemechs were massively inferior to true battlemechs.

Actually along with this... if you study what each planet produced in its factories, you will find that almost no planets make all the parts for many complete mechs, so in reality all mechs must be assembled in parts and in different stages. Look over each planet at sarna.net and you will be hard pressed to find a single mech that is made from components made on any one planet. Try it yourself, and you'll find you need to have cooperation from multiple planets to build mechs.

... and as for my comments on the building rules for customized classed based (A-F) mechs...
I think all that needs to be done to prevent too good a frankenmech is to prevent mechs from having too many of the same weapons, Just limit the number of identical weapons one any one mech to a number like 2 or 4, so you can't make a home brewed Komodo, or Mad Dog A, or Fire Moth Prime/A/H etc... so any custom mechs can only have say 2 Gauss Rifles (and not 3+) max, and 4 Med Lasers Max, or 4 MPL's max. This way if you want a munchy mech or vee you have to use a canon mech like a Nova Prime/S/H,Thunderhawk, Grasshopper , Jenner, Javelin, or a canon vehicle like an LRM carrier or SRM carrier so some players will want to use both. So bad mechs will can be improved so that they are not junk and great mechs will have to be the canon ones.

-Mek

[MaddMaxx]

FACEman Peck, on 17 December 2011 - 09:57 AM, said:

I always thought that was the whole point of the MechLab, to modify a 'Mech from the ground up to have a war machine that will ensure your survival for as long as possible. Something I used for major assaults was a Daishi with a lot of ballistics, one LRM-15, and some lasers, modified armor, and no equipment.

And I can't see an issue with that setup, except, in the previous MW games you got RADAR with that as well. That build should have a dead near blacked out cockpit and any and all targeting would be done via LoS and the Pilots ability to manually aim his weapons systems and or Torso facing when shooting.

If you are going to strip the systems out in favor of Weapons, fine and dandy, but you had best have great personal vision and superb hand eye coordination because having no electronics should mean you are driving what amounts to a "dumb" machine and the pilot has to do ALL the work those systems would do, or assist, with.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 17 December 2011 - 12:47 PM.

[Phades]

Tweaks, on 17 December 2011 - 06:01 AM, said:

(edit) As Nik Van Rhijn pointed out, MWO's timeline will be real time (1:1, It is now December 17, 3048 in MWO), it makes absolutely no sense at all to allow for instant Class-F refits, which by the book, should take weeks to complete, and require a full blown factory grade facility. That point alone, just nullifies every claim that instant-refits would be feasible in MWO!

Ok, to put this in perspective then. You just got done with a match and you got engine damage, gyro, and arm actuator in addition to 1-2 weapons shot out. Are you ok with not playing the game for 2-3 weeks while it is in the shop? Or do you just magically get an endless supply of back-up machines waiting at your beck and call to go into the next match with?

The thing is, there will be multiple instances of the same world fight. That world fight is likely to be repeated 100s of times a day. Feasibly speaking, there wouldn't be enough resources in the battle tech universe to support that kind of pitched fighting ever. In order for the game to simply "work" there will have to be things that go overlooked via the fiction.

[Tweaks]

Phades, on 17 December 2011 - 01:15 PM, said:

Ok, to put this in perspective then. You just got done with a match and you got engine damage, gyro, and arm actuator in addition to 1-2 weapons shot out. Are you ok with not playing the game for 2-3 weeks while it is in the shop? Or do you just magically get an endless supply of back-up machines waiting at your beck and call to go into the next match with?

The thing is, there will be multiple instances of the same world fight. That world fight is likely to be repeated 100s of times a day. Feasibly speaking, there wouldn't be enough resources in the battle tech universe to support that kind of pitched fighting ever. In order for the game to simply "work" there will have to be things that go overlooked via the fiction.

I think we can all agree that there's a difference between instant and week(s)-long repairs. Repairing a single gun out (or replacing it with a new one), should probably take a few minutes at least, and major overhauls should probably take a few hours.

I don't know how it could be done without penalizing us too much and still fit within the 1:1 timeline. I just don't want class F refits to be able to be done instantly. Doesn't mean it has to take a week though (even if it actually does in the rulebook and canon). It has to be somewhere in between.

[Phades]

Tweaks, on 17 December 2011 - 01:34 PM, said:

I think we can all agree that there's a difference between instant and week(s)-long repairs. Repairing a single gun out (or replacing it with a new one), should probably take a few minutes at least, and major overhauls should probably take a few hours.

I don't know how it could be done without penalizing us too much and still fit within the 1:1 timeline. I just don't want class F refits to be able to be done instantly. Doesn't mean it has to take a week though (even if it actually does in the rulebook and canon). It has to be somewhere in between.

I get what you are going for. The thing is, I really don't see it meshing with the style of game this is going to represent. It will end up having folks sitting out matches, just because, and getting separated from their team mates more than single unit spawn matches would. Let us not also forget about the other team that lost and they have to do complete rebuilds of machines to just be able to go into another match.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I think there needs to be a big time difference for repairs compared refit's/customisation. Having said that, I think if you are attacking a planet then perhaps it would be acceptable that repairs would be limited, at least for the first few matches until a decent beachead is established. I am assuming that people will have more than one mech available (at least of the basic models) for the "Campaign" mode

[John Frye]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 17 December 2011 - 01:49 PM, said:

I think there needs to be a big time difference for repairs compared refit's/customisation. Having said that, I think if you are attacking a planet then perhaps it would be acceptable that repairs would be limited, at least for the first few matches until a decent beachead is established. I am assuming that people will have more than one mech available (at least of the basic models) for the "Campaign" mode

Agreed. Honestly, any option is going to step away from cannon (quick repairs vs multiple mechs in the hanger). That being said, it is massively easier to fix something to existing specifications than to engineer a redesign / upgrade / refit.

My personal opinion is that if you want your maxed out Gauss / ERPPC monster, it should take awhile to create,if only to limit the number out there. If it takes a month to fund plus a week to build, but an hour to lose, the equilibrium level for them is going to be pretty low.

[Phades]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 17 December 2011 - 01:49 PM, said:

I think there needs to be a big time difference for repairs compared refit's/customisation. Having said that, I think if you are attacking a planet then perhaps it would be acceptable that repairs would be limited, at least for the first few matches until a decent beachead is established. I am assuming that people will have more than one mech available (at least of the basic models) for the "Campaign" mode

The actual tech work involved in stripping armor/repair and refit isn't any different than pulling off pristine and doing similar replacements. What happens when you don't have the PPC to replace what got blown out? Dial 1-800-merc-net and have them fly out a new one for you with same day service? No, you are going to have to have your tech rig something together to replace it with and in order to stay within base construction rules, you are going to have to pull off other items or adjust armor values to make it work. (Note, personally I'd think it would be fantastic if they even broke it down into the level of different actuators being able to perform different tasks at different aptitudes. For example, an arm with melee actuators might turret faster, but would not be able to wield something as heavy as the higher end ACs and guass rifles, etc.)

I don't even know if they are going to do progressive style matches or not. It would be cool if they did, but that would require them to remake the maps continuously in order to accommodate those situations for each world played on in order to avoid too much repetition. Even so, I shudder at a certain point when thinking each player will need to have a company stable worth of machines just to play matches for a couple hours in the same day.

[pcunite]

I say let's only allow for Stock Variants initially, let the game ship ... if needed customization can be added.

[Mekslayer]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 17 December 2011 - 01:49 PM, said:

I think there needs to be a big time difference for repairs compared refit's/customisation. Having said that, I think if you are attacking a planet then perhaps it would be acceptable that repairs would be limited, at least for the first few matches until a decent beachead is established. I am assuming that people will have more than one mech available (at least of the basic models) for the "Campaign" mode

Well actually I would somewhat disagree... if the twisted metal which makes up the remains of your mech is "easier to repair" by changing the the twisted metal back to untwisted metal, than it is to change/modify it by welding something else onto the chasis, I would sincerely doubt this. If you were a mechanic for "smash up derby" would you think it is easier to change the wrecked car back to a stock Camero right from the dealers floor or easier to weld something on to the twisted metal just good enough to make something that runs?

I'd say the frankenmech is a hell of a lot easier. A stock mech would take more effort if you had to pull off and reshape all the twisted metal and get things to fit and shape it back into a stock vehicle. Maybe a good question to ask a body shop.

-Mek

[Wolvers]

What exactly is the problem with full customization? They want the game to closely resemble the TT, so I expect any customization to cost c-bills and time. For full customization, it will incur the cost of a factory refit. That in itself is going to be limiting without arbitrarily just saying "nope can't do it, just because".

[Holmes]

pcunite, on 17 December 2011 - 02:32 PM, said:

I say let's only allow for Stock Variants initially, let the game ship ... if needed customization can be added.

They might as well just get new jobs then, because you just described MW:LL, an already high quality project that I uninstalled promptly because it didn't have a MechLab.

They need to deliver a complete MechWarrior game. Not to my expectations, not to yours, not even to theirs (like they said, it's for a community), not a half assed "get it out quick initially" project that could be done by a mod team. The people in charge of this game are incredibly talented and well versed in BT, I don't want to see a cheap free mod. My hopes are set high for this.

[Sun Tzu Lao]

If the Mech lab is insufficient in the way of retrofitting, and not at least somewhat similar to mw4, or mechcommander, I just won't play. Being able to fit your weapon to your style of play is important. An abrams tank can waste anything on the ground today, but we still send in a wide variety of forces to a combat action, likewise if the game is made properly, the ability to use deadly combos will be mediated by skill, specialization, and strategy. That's how real life is anyway, everything has strengths and weaknesses, and mercs have access to custom gear even today, and as far as I know it goes with the whole Canon. Severely limited mechlab will just turn it into c.o.d. with mechs. That's my .02, scratchbuilding would kill the fun for new players, while lack of possible customization will cause at least one person to get bored, and I doubt I'm that unique. Upgrades should make sense, a powerplant change should take days or weeks depending on the mech, armor a bit less perhaps, and no LRM rack in in a warhammer's ARM lol. Upgrade characteristics should be determined by common sense, not by what's fair, and not because someone's going to get their panties in a bunch when they get taken by surprise by some unusual or specialized fit. Balancing is one thing, a severely limited mechlab is another. Excuse the rambling, but those are my thoughts on the matter.

[pcunite]

I think some of us are confusing the issue (perhaps me!)

1. Customizing a mech to shoot <insert_your_fav_weapon> is one concern.
2. Balancing fire power superiority is the other concern.

All of us want to be able to have similar fire power spread across our Lance so we can win fairly. That is going to happen, the devs have said so. Thus, if some of you just want the notion of choosing your favorite mech and then getting to choose your favorite fire power animation ... well, I guess that goes against lore enough that we could argue that point.

Why? MWO is about being a simulator ... a simulation of what? The LORE! It is not going to be a button smashing brawl fest 90% of the time ... information warfare ... simulation ... those are the things that are supposed to make this version of the game fun. We've done customization before, we've done button smashing before. It does not make for a better game just because you got to pick 5 ER PPC's instead of what the variant's chose for you.

[Orzorn]

Mechs should only be able to be fit with weapons that their variant can take. A stock Urbanmech, for example, would only be able to hold a laser weapon and a ballistic weapon.

Basically, similar to Mechwarrior 4's hard point system, but each variant gets their own hard points, because variants are generally total refits of the mech, as opposed to quick weapon swaps.

Edit: This is important because IS mechs are NOT omnimechs. You can't preform those sorts of insane refits like we've done in all the previous games (Except mechwarrior 4) on the fly. That just doesn't happen without a TON of cash and time. No, we won't get access to total refits until the Clans invade and omnimechs make their debut.

Edited by Orzorn, 17 December 2011 - 05:07 PM.

[KingCobra]

How do you know we wont get this or that Orzorn? i think at this stage its all speculation.All we can do as fans and potential players is express our idea's and desires to the dev's and see what comes out when the Beta or game is launched.

[Orzorn]

KingCobra, on 17 December 2011 - 05:11 PM, said:

How do you know we wont get this or that Orzorn? i think at this stage its all speculation.All we can do as fans and potential players is express our idea's and desires to the dev's and see what comes out when the Beta or game is launched.

I don't understand this.

Of course its speculation, what else would it be? What's the point in even pointing it out? I didn't even act like my idea was even in the game, hell, I didn't even phrase it like it was in.

Edited by Orzorn, 17 December 2011 - 05:20 PM.

[Zureal]

I want free for all customization, but I want there to be a price for it, like in time, money, and skills to do so. But hey, if you can do it in the novels, and in canon then why not in MWO.

Start with a stock machine, and IF you can afford to, have the parts available to, and have the skills necessary, then give unlimited customization.

[Mavek]

I have waaay too many questions about gameplay before I can vote.

Is this game basically being beta tested in MWLL?

If MWO is basically a bunch of timed games like in MWLL that contribute points to a faction's control over a territory, then the mechlab can offer both readily built varients that players can 'tweak' quickly and easily by swapping one type of beam weapon to another for example, but also offer stripped down chassis that players can load out into close to anything they want based on the mass and chassis restraints. I think the answer is already in the coding being used in MWLL. Weapon and equipment costs are being balanced there as we speak. The chassis have 'pods' programed into them, basically with hard points for certain numbers and sizes of weapons, so you would be able to make some frankenmechs out of some chassis, but their costs should balance them out, and even more so, if you put an expensive mech into play, the other team gets more points for crushing that asset. I would like to see a mechlab that lets me tweak loadouts to get the maximum performance for the lowest c-bills possible.

Maybe the level of customization you can access in the mechlab would be contingient upon you experience or rank? Lets say you can 'store' a customized variant of a Bushwacker to your account, but its customization was extensive and you wont be able to use it until you reach the required rank.

My dream game would be a MWO game that has crafters that can train up to build anything they can get schematics/resources/facilies to build. Players could buy on an open market, store, transport, and trade whatever other players can build/salvage/refit to sell to them. In the beginning of a new players career, until they have worked their way up in the world a bit and can afford a custom job, their 'issued' mechs would be canon/book varients that are available to their chosen faction or to the part of the inner sphere they are located. Or they can get mechs traded to them from other players.

Edited by Mavek, 17 December 2011 - 06:22 PM.

[Kenyon Burguess]

i feel mechs should be stock upon purchase. what upgrades and mods you decide to spend billions of c-bills on later is your business.