655 replies to this topic

[Brakkyn]

I have never played BattleTech, the table top game, and I don't want full customization.

[Kristov Kerensky]

I played TT, and I want the same customization in MWO that I had in TT, which is FULL customization. If you want to build something, you just need the money and time do it in TT, WHATEVER it is you want to build. Simple rules to follow..each size frame has limitations on what size engine it can hold, how many jets it can hold, how large those jets need to be to MOVE the mass, and what can go where. Then there's the cost of each piece of equipment. And there's time required to do the work. That's it. From swapping out a SL for a some MGs to stripping the chassis bare and rebuilding it with all new equipment, it's allowed. Hell, you can build a NEW chassis from the ground up, it just takes time and money! MW2 did that part of it correctly, they just failed to add in the cost and time required..until MW2:Mercs came out..still no time required, but they did add the cost of parts..but not labor..can't forget the labor costs!

Now, as already stated, MWO will ship as a PvP game, no PvE, an MMO very much like Planetside, constant combat for control of a persistant map of the Inner Sphere. So..having to wait hours, days or even weeks to get your ride patched up or customized...yeah..no, that won't make PGI any friends and will kill the game. When you have nothing to do in the game BUT fight other players, sitting around and waiting and not being able to play with NOTHING else to do in the game...why in the hell would anyone stick around for that silly bs? They wouldn't, we all know it, ain't gonna happen no matter what some of you claim you'd do. MWO will be an MMO in the literal sense, but that's it..there's NO game outside the combat, so they can't let make us wait very long at all for repairs and customization. I'd be willing to put up with a half hour wait AT MOST for anything, repairs/customization..and that's just cause I'm a patient guy like that Seriously though, 30 minutes would be acceptable..NOT desired, but acceptable, since there's no game outside of the combat to keep me occupied.

And..we will be able to customize the Mechs, that's been stated clearly. I only pray they stick with the TT rules on it, not that total bs used in MW4 and MA..seriously..you can't build some of the basic stock variants listed in the TROs for the Mechs in MW4..how the hell is that right? BTech has no 'if that stock only has X in a location, you can't put Y or Z there' rules, that's just something MS did to try and stop boating..didn't work worth a damn either did it, since half the Mechs in MW4 ARE boats by design!

[Alekto Serenis]

guardiandashi, on 19 December 2011 - 10:51 PM, said:

honestly from what I have seen it is NOT the classic battletech (aka) tabletop people who are saying NO customizations.

what I have seen is that most of the people who have played the board game want some level of customization in the game, as it is a big part of the "meta" game

many want some restrictions, mabie have it take some time, certain refits requiring access to in game resources that are NOT available everywhere etc.


the people who seem to be most down on the customization are the people who want gameplay similar to MA(AKA) Mech Assault

IE a game which is ALL simple simple gameplay not necessarally "dumbed down" but being forced to choose from what I am going to call a "limited" selection of options

IE examples of what some of these people seem to want....

1 no customization at all, so if it is a catapult, there are only 2 varients of catapults available, the one with 2 lrm 15's and 4 medium lasers, or the one that packs ppc's ... oh wait they do not want that because a catapult with ppc's would confuse their brain because catapults pack lrms..

2 what I am going to call pin point targeting every weapon fired hits EXACTLY on the 1 pixel the crosshairs are centered on with NO deviation allowed.

3 all the time god radar because having to figure out where the enemy is is too hard....

ok mabie I am exaggerating a little bit... but that is how some of these people are coming across to me.

frankly I want the game to be somewhat more complex than paper rock sizzors, I want customization so you can't be completely complacant, I want to have the "computer" to simulate having a "warbook" and have to "look up" a mech by siloette (sp) and even having to not automatically know what varient it is until it starts shooting, I do not want it to automatically "Know" what is mounted on your "custom" mech before you start shooting

I want there to be the possibility of "tactical" and strategic surprises

And thats why i hope they put any little electronics from the rules in the game, i would love to field my "crow" (raven, 45 tons, any little piece of electronics there is including stealth armor, i know everything, the enemy not^^) and when they do want to make scouts worthwhile this would be the best that could happen, as the lore likes to say (and the guy on s7 in mw4) light mech pilots are a ***** bunch of weirdos that have the most modified crazy chassis...

Doesnt anyone see how it is actually fun to kill someone's most proud config with your own? (and not the stupid mentioned gausszilla)

Btw this is a true boat
http://www.sarna.net...ne_%28Kraken%29

Also on the tt, lb-x boats usually are more spited, they can crit you to the clanworlds and back to sian in a single turn


(oh and i know, if i could ever afford it, i would build the "omfg", 306 hardened, composite, rac10, tsm, tons o pulse, 100 ton 4/5/4, and 2 rf mg's on the back, 1 crit and BOOM)


Another way to balance this would be, as someone mentioned, to pay the labor costs, that would make a custom mech costy past simple equipment



ps: i think it is obvious i like custom build machines^^

[Mech Wrench]

The Mech lab has always been the funnest part of the game, sense MW2. being able to spend hours tweeking builds and then testing your creations abilities in battle has always been the most rewarding component of the game, in the campaigns, instant action, and especially online. each battle i fought would have specific needs that i would have to build into my mech. online, depending on my opponents, and my allies, and the map, i would have a custom variant to suite my needs. i would hate to see a mechwarrior without this critical strategy of game play. Sure there will be odd builds that shouldn't be, but guess what, so will everyone else, one way or another, it will balance out, and it will be fun. I dont care what the hardcore battle tech rules say, i dont care about timelines in battle tech history, i want to have fun with the game. give me a mech lab, give me weapon options, and let me be the lab rat that i want to be!

[Wolvers]

Brakkyn, on 19 December 2011 - 11:17 PM, said:

I have never played BattleTech, the table top game, and I don't want full customization.

why don't you want full customization?

Edited by Wolvers, 20 December 2011 - 12:40 AM.

[Wolvers]

This sure does look like a TT vs Mechwarrior here. I've played both, started off with the TT, the only argument against full customization appears to be 'boating', not the best argument given there are official mechs out there loaded up with lasers, mg's or as Alekto pointed out, the Kraken which is loaded up with Ultra AC 2's, long range, potential 40 damage, lots of chances of criticals.....

What's the suggestion from the against customization crowd? Ban these mechs? where do you draw the line? how many lasers/missiles/ballistics constitutes a boat?

[LctRoyFokker]

Somtimes stock Mech's stink !! In Mechwarrior 4 you were able to strip out weapons, and put in others. And you could also add extra armor and type's of armor, heat sinks, top speed of the mech. As long as you could do it in the totall tonnage of the Mech you were rebuilding.

Yes every now and then I would get my but kicked, then I would go back and twike a little and make it a better mech.
So please make it so we can modify our stock Mech's

What you should drop is Unlimeted Ammo and No Heat, unless you playing on a air less moon.

[Alekto Serenis]

NH/UA is simple cheats.... boring anyways and the n00bs choice

Tho id love to see dfferent weatherconditions, playing on a stormy volcanic hell should **** up your ballistics and heat, while inside a blizzard you cant see anything but dissipate heat fast

[Nik Van Rhijn]

"We want to make sure we bring the roots of the MechWarrior® titles back to the surface and also incorporate the basic rules from the BattleTech® Universe. Players will be able to customize their BattleMechs with weapon and armor upgrades as well as customize their cosmetic appearance in the MechLab." This is what we have so far (from the game section). Some form of customisation is in, we just don't know the details. The general tech level is 3049 but we don't know wether they will differentiate between different computer types. sensors etc to enable their Role designations. We also don't know how accessible certain types/levels of tech will be, their cost and how long it will take to implement. Given PGI's statements about accessibilty at different levels their will probably be a range of "refit kits" for newcomers in the Mechlab with more control for the more experienced/familiar "tweakers". Hopefully this is a useful summary of where we are at the moment.

[Tweaks]

Wolvers, on 20 December 2011 - 12:45 AM, said:

This sure does look like a TT vs Mechwarrior here. I've played both, started off with the TT, the only argument against full customization appears to be 'boating', not the best argument given there are official mechs out there loaded up with lasers, mg's or as Alekto pointed out, the Kraken which is loaded up with Ultra AC 2's, long range, potential 40 damage, lots of chances of criticals.....

What's the suggestion from the against customization crowd? Ban these mechs? where do you draw the line? how many lasers/missiles/ballistics constitutes a boat?

Boating is not the only argument against full customization. There are several others. For my part, the most fun I've had was when I was playing MW:LL and MPBT:3025. They both had no 'MechLab, meaning you had to learn how to use each 'Mech and their variants the way they were supposed to be played. You also had to learn their weaknesses and remember them to be good in combat.

To me, learning all the different 'Mechs and learning how to recognize the variants by looking at its guns was a thrill.

With full customization, that aspect is gone completely. Other than the general look of a 'Mech, you can't know what weapons, armor or internals it has, or where to hit it to do most damage, since it could almost be just about anything.

For this reason (let alone the boating issue which is an obvious balancing problem), I would prefer to have controlled customization in the form of Refit Kits only, where only "PGI approved" modifications could be made (i.e. to go from one variant to another).

This is not MechLab Online after all, it's MechWarrior Online! So I don't see why it "HAS" to have a full blown customization system.

PS. Crying to PGI claiming you won't play if it's not in there the way you want it won't change anything.

[Joseph Mallan]

Get your Mech outta the stock built, salvage and purchase (in game not with real cash) equipment to upgraded and mod your ride as you go. That is the best compromise and fairly realistic.

Or depending on your Character traits, start with x C-Bills to make some mods to represent a family owned ride.

[Alekto Serenis]

@Tweaks, and you think that wouldnt be possible even with an full blown customization, cant remember right now which it was, but there was a mw2 remake that actually let you see the differences between each variant, even when customizing the machine, some things could been seen, like when there was a ppc in a arm or a lbx, a lrm in the torso etc

ALso the possibility of custom mechs would force you to know the enemys, not only the ride, you have to anticipate what they could be doing next and adapt to THEM, not only the machine, but to the pilot as well, that could be also made that when you have fought someone and your mech got the chance to scan their ride, next time it would be in your database, allowing your onboard computer to tell you where actually is what. This would also be in the lore, as a mech doesnt know what a mech is on the first encounter (example, the first clan sightings, and how their onboard systems went batshit crazy)

btw heres a thing many of you mw players dont know, on the tt it is even possible to allocate the crits, theres some (me) who abused that to put equipment to slots that have the lowest chance to be hit, and stuff endo-steel/ferro-fibrous between. Theres even an example from fasa, the cauldron born had on its official sheet some very interesting critical slot distributions.

[wolf74]

Alekto Serenis, on 20 December 2011 - 06:31 AM, said:

@Tweaks, and you think that wouldnt be possible even with an full blown customization, cant remember right now which it was, but there was a mw2 remake that actually let you see the differences between each variant, even when customizing the machine, some things could been seen, like when there was a ppc in a arm or a lbx, a lrm in the torso etc

The game your thinking of is Assault Tech 1 : Battletech. which did start as a MW2 remake but grew bigger.

Edited post to add the images below for the last Public Version of AT1:BT
http://home.grandeco...ges/CPLT-A1.jpg
http://home.grandeco...ges/CPLT-K2.jpg

http://home.grandeco...eman%20IIC1.jpg
http://home.grandeco...eman%20IIC4.jpg

Note on the mechs Both Versions of the same core one Game ID (AKA both Catapults only have one Core Mech ID, and both Rifleman IIc have One Core Mech ID). Due to the fact (Sake906 a great programer 1st) he made a Lego Model system in the engine for the Mechs. So we can on the fly Change a mech's image based on the weapons add to the it.

Edited by wolf74, 20 December 2011 - 08:17 AM.

[Alekto Serenis]

Aye to both, the game is an excellent piece of work AND it was at1

Lan'ed it a few times with some of my old gamer friends, its awesome

[Kristov Kerensky]

Tweaks, you do realize that MWLL is working on allowing not only customization but also making physical changes to the Mech model to represent the customizations, right? They are doing that because the community demands it. They haven't done it YET because it takes a lot of work to do what they are trying to do without a budget and in their spare time.

As for MPBT on GEnie..or the BattleTech 3025 that EA worked on..neither of those systems allowed customization due to how their game worked. You didn't OWN your Mechs in those games, you belonged to a House and the Mechs were assigned to you, just as it works in the TT game, you don't get to customize the Mechs assigned you by the House militaries. At least not until you've gained a few upgrades in rank AND been able to save up a Mechload of c-bills to pay for the work..which ain't easy to do when you are in a House unit..salvage rights ain't the same as for Merc units and soldiers, even Mech pilots, don't make a fortune

Customization is part of the BTech experience, and it was even part of the MW4 and MA experience, albeit in really messed up ways, it was STILL in them. Solaris..the one thing that anyone who played MW4 can agree on as being a great thing, was ALL about customization, from it's original version in the BTech series to the way it was done in video games. Never knew what you'd face in Solaris, which was all part of the challenge...and fun.

And not being able to know exactly what that Mech you are aiming at has on it..so what? Once it starts firing at you, you can usually figure out what it has and where it's located. In BTech, we have computers and sensors that can determine what a Mech is carrying on it and display that in your cockpit. I don't see why PGI can't do the same thing for us in MWO, after all, MW4's BAP allows you to see exactly what weapons anything you are facing is carrying.

[TheBossHammer]

I think it should be done most similarly to the Mechwarrior 4 system, but with one big tweak: If you are given a weapon mount that has 3 slots, like a PPC mount, and you decide to put a medium or large laser in it, which would be one or two slots (respectively), you should only be able to put one of either into the mount. Each mount should only hold a single weapon system, so if you have Five laser mounts on a Nova Cat with three being PPC mounts and two being small/medium laser mounts, you should only be able to fit a max of five medium lasers, not the retarded 11 medium lasers that could be equipped in Mechwarrior 4. I also think that house players should have unlimited access to weapons from their house but should only gain access to other weapons through salvage, while merc players can buy any weapons that end up on the market but...well, they need to buy their weapons. That way players that want a "Frankenmech" of sorts can get it, but doing so as a member of a house will be extraordinarily difficult. I also think that every mech should have an inner-sphere version and a clan version if it doesn't already and canon (and balance) allow for it, and mechs that already have both versions should have each as a completely different chassis (Mad Cat and Timberwolf are completely different mechs by this scheme) with clan tech receiving a noticeable penalty for being loaded on an IS chassis, (ER Large Laser keeps it's range on a Mad Cat, but is twice as powerful when loaded on a TimberWolf) and the inverse also being true (IS Gauss Rifles lose half their ammo reserves in order to fit into the clan TimberWolf design). Considering that the game starts before the omni-mech was invented, there shouldn't be any issues with mixed technology that way.

[Alekto Serenis]

TheBossHammer, on 20 December 2011 - 01:11 PM, said:

OH GODS PLEASE NO?

http://www.sarna.net...r_Sphere_Refits
SLDF era clan upgrades for solahma troops and later sale to stravags

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Rakshasa
IS TimberWolf

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/O-Bakemono
IS Naga

http://www.sarna.net...i/Black_Hawk-KU
IS Nova

Please, i understand some of you do not know all of the lore, but some of us fans that know and love battletech for a good 20 years (or 25 to those that have the age) are probably mostly drawn to mwo because of them wanting to stay as true to it as possible, that even includes custom designed refits to individual mechwarriors (rpg&tt rules).

Take a look at the mentioned mw2mercs, it stays true to the core rules, and building a boat can get you easier killed then creating something more thought out.

But please, in the name of whatever is holy to you, do not even make it anymore dumber then microsoft did.

[Omigir]

Kristov Kerensky, on 20 December 2011 - 11:08 AM, said:

Tweaks, you do realize that MWLL is working on allowing not only customization but also making physical changes to the Mech model to represent the customizations, right? They are doing that because the community demands it. They haven't done it YET because it takes a lot of work to do what they are trying to do without a budget and in their spare time. As for MPBT on GEnie..or the BattleTech 3025 that EA worked on..neither of those systems allowed customization due to how their game worked. You didn't OWN your Mechs in those games, you belonged to a House and the Mechs were assigned to you, just as it works in the TT game, you don't get to customize the Mechs assigned you by the House militaries. At least not until you've gained a few upgrades in rank AND been able to save up a Mechload of c-bills to pay for the work..which ain't easy to do when you are in a House unit..salvage rights ain't the same as for Merc units and soldiers, even Mech pilots, don't make a fortune Customization is part of the BTech experience, and it was even part of the MW4 and MA experience, albeit in really messed up ways, it was STILL in them. Solaris..the one thing that anyone who played MW4 can agree on as being a great thing, was ALL about customization, from it's original version in the BTech series to the way it was done in video games. Never knew what you'd face in Solaris, which was all part of the challenge...and fun. And not being able to know exactly what that Mech you are aiming at has on it..so what? Once it starts firing at you, you can usually figure out what it has and where it's located. In BTech, we have computers and sensors that can determine what a Mech is carrying on it and display that in your cockpit. I don't see why PGI can't do the same thing for us in MWO, after all, MW4's BAP allows you to see exactly what weapons anything you are facing is carrying.

What about MechAssault!? It had no mechlab either!

but it did have an Uziel with a 'Bushwhacker' variant. Bushwhacker, thats not a real mech anway, right? Just hte name of an Uziel's variant? n__n Ahh.. mechassault, the best example of 'non arcade' mechwarrior because it had no mech lab. and mech labs are only in arcade versions of mechwarrior! which means MW3 was an arcade game too!

[renegade mitchell]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 19 December 2011 - 12:45 PM, said:

Hardpoint's a la MW4 merely made for different boats to unlimited customisation a la MW3.

Not sure with Mech 3, never played that one, but 4 yes. Maybe limit hard points?

[Alekto Serenis]

ot:
MechAssault does not exist... Any memories of it are dreams of an alternate, worse, universum.